Hillary, The B Word, The C word and Misogyny

Can we stop the misogynistic slurs regarding Hillary, please? My new video posted at Steven D Talks:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFEe15lK89o]

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Are we seriously saying the people who populate dKos are going to be critical of us for using the word? Like they're not critical now? Like we're going to worry about the way the 1% and their enablers use it to slow us down?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

joe shikspack's picture

i haven't read through this whole comment section, but some things appear to be going badly.

i don't like censorship, you don't like censorship - but we all appreciate it when people are kind and respect the feelings of others.

there are a significant number of people on this site that are disturbed by the usage of certain terms that, while common, are not generally considered fit for polite company. they have made plain their discomfort with the use of these terms, even when applied to someone that is broadly disliked or worse.

these terms single out characteristics that identify groups of people, so when they are used to deride an individual, there is collateral damage.

this is my personal observation, so others mileage may vary, but i have found these terms to be without utility that cannot be had by other expressions. the sole utility that comes to mind that cannot be replicated is the ability to offend people and create an atmosphere of discomfort.

so, if these terms could be eschewed, not out of fear of reprisal, but rather out of kindness and care for a large part of the community, that would be the optimal situation.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

It puts two of our primary values at odds with one another. Those are the toughest fights for anybody. Well, for anybody who is honest/self-critical.

This is a good statement, which I will chew on: if these terms could be eschewed, not out of fear of reprisal, but rather out of kindness and care for a large part of the community, that would be the optimal situation.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

joe shikspack's picture

i've heard it used before, largely as a means to set a community against itself, causing rifts and diverting the community into debate rather than activism.

i don't think for a minute that that was steven d's intent, just to be clear.

in the longer view, it's kind of a silly argument to have, with some demanding on principle to be free to hurt and offend others, rather than attending to the social needs of the community.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

as I've seen both sides taken to damaging extremes. It's not quite as cut-and-dried as it looks. But it's potentially a very damaging argument to have, and I too have experienced it used precisely to create division.

I don't think that was steve's intent either.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Before seeing your post, I attempted to make some of these points upthread, but did nowhere near as well as you did. Had I seen this post, I would have simply linked it.

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if anybody knew where the latest catch phrase everyone is using (Your Mileage May Vary) came from? I heard it was made popular by hookers describing sex acts with their john's.

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elenacarlena's picture

The way you drive can change mileage by 33% or more! Enough for someone to think they've been lied to when told a car's mpg, then they buy the car and their mpg is not even close. But the way that is tested is by some sort of "standard" driving. So car salespeople tell buyers YMMV. You can use it to compare different cars, but don't expect to actually get that mileage unless you drive carefully.

For tips on getting better mileage, see https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/factors.shtml

Since then, it very well could have become a thing with hookers! But cars came first. Well, hookers came before cars. I'm sure they had them in ancient Greece. But the phrase in relation to cars came first.

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from the seventies. I remember them from when I was a kid during the second gas crunch. Manufacturers were touting their gas mileage figures from the Gov't.
As for using it today? Probably some old fogie brought it back.
Good discussion on language and intentions, just know that I Will piss people off with my coarse language and attitude. After 53 revolutions around the sun I find it difficult to give a fuck sometimes. You'll Know if it's personal, there will be no mistake. However, I do Try not to make it personal. Just not always successfully.

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

What is the point of this? Is there some sort of sweary epidemic here I'm not seeing? I rarely see these words used on C99 at all, and even if they were used more often, I wouldn't care.

People should be able to express themselves they way they choose, and moralistic calls for censorship of specific terms based on the delicate sensibilities of certain readers is as useless as it is divisive.

Are we really assigning hierarchies of offensiveness to words based on the identity of those they purport to describe? Fuck that identity politics noise. All men and women are created equal, and so are the pejorative words used to describe them. Nobody has a monopoly on offensiveness, and selecting some epithets for censorship over others just promotes Orwellian GroupThink, narrow-mindedness, and division.

Newsflash: people swear, and in these troubled times the freedom to swear the way one chooses is more precious than ever - and especially when it comes to Hillary. Anything else is just authoritarian nonsense masquerading as decorum.

be polite_0.jpg

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

mimi's picture

That his post turned out to become a pool for comments of pissed off and unhappy people is not his fault. The video/post was not inflammatory. May be unnecessary, because for most people it's clear that such appeals won't work and create more discomfort, depression, anger and problems than they solve.

May be we can go back to business as usual and try to love each other?

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

Steven D has the right to express himself as well.

Sorry, did I say he couldn't express himself? Or do you just misread on purpose?

May be unnecessary, because for most people it's clear that such appeals won't work and create more discomfort, depression, anger and problems than they solve.

It's not just unnecessary. It's wholly counterproductive.

Enforcing identity norms is the single most insidious way tPTB keep Progressives divided.

Why do you think Hillary loves them so much? Because it's an easy and effective way to divide the left into competing and conflicting camps. Men vs women, blacks vs whites, gays vs straights, etc. etc.

All it takes is somebody claiming somebody else used some awful word, and off everybody runs to attack or defend the word, and then ensues the same overlong and fruitless arguments over the propriety and usefulness of censorship ("Of only certain words, mind you. And of course we'd never censor Huck Finn!").

Meanwhile the 1% ers chuckle at how easy it is to distract the suckers from the real issues of income inequality and disenfranchisement.

Or ask yourself this: if everybody stopped using those bad words StevenD doesn't like, do you think it would make an iota's bit of difference in Hillary's policies or activities. If anything, it would just make her want to stir it up even more.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

And my guess is I probably wouldn't care much either--I tend to read right past those words without them having a lot of impact on me--except for the word "nigger," which has a history so loathsome it makes me blench. But that's me.

I wish I were as sure of my opinion on this issue as some others here (including you), like when you say this:

People should be able to express themselves they way they choose, and moralistic calls for censorship of specific terms based on the delicate sensibilities of certain readers is as useless as it is divisive.


People should be able to express themselves the way they choose-
--well, in general, yeah. But like many ideologies of total individual freedom, that doesn't work out so well in practice. Of course, policing what people say can also lead to incredibly crap results.

moralistic calls for censorship...hmmm, well, the problem is that language is also extremely powerful, and tied to both history and politics. Sorting out how morality and language and freedom and history and action and community exist in right relation to each other is really difficult and complex. Well, it is for me.

Calls for censorship are as useless as they are divisive
--Often that's true, but when it's a question of morality, usefulness is not always the best guide for what to do. You have to balance "what is useful?" with "is this a principle that needs to be upheld?" Like marking a boundary even if people continue to cross over it, it can sometimes matter to state a principle, because if you don't state one, norms shift, and you may not like where they shift to. The Overton Window operates on this principle. What people say is real is important even if what's real in practice contradicts what they say.

Take for instance, monogamy, which is about as normative as you can get in this culture (I think something like 90% of people marry, and while some of them are polyamorous or have open relationships, the majority certainly appears to consider themselves monogamous). And yet the statistics on both divorce and cheating are through the roof. Cheating, in particular, contradicts the notion of monogamy, and there's a lot of it about. So what's real in practice contradicts what people say. Yet what people say on this issue is really really important. It establishes a norm that is so intensely policed that it more or less has become perceived reality. Like, people often don't think there's any outside to it, other than "bad people" or "weirdos."

So words have a lot of power to determine perceived reality, something that people who are more libertarian on this issue either don't admit or don't care about. But then again, I've seen communities where the policing of language and thought has taken over the entire damned discussion. I've seen 4-6 hour meetings taken up with it. And that's where the notion of this argument not being useful starts to hold more weight. Because the discussion of who used a hurtful word to hurt whom starts to prevent useful work from being done.

Worst of all, this is often--as joe said--used as a very effective tool for sabotage of movements. I know that if I were an infiltrator, this is exactly the tack I would take: I have about, hmm, potentially three different bases on which I could assert that an injury was done to me, and if I stuck to my guns, I could keep the argument going for a long, long time. Because liberals actually want to be fair, and they want to be kind. But they also want to be free, and encourage everyone's freedom. Pointing out where these values conflict with one another is a pretty sure way to get people arguing.

I want to re-emphasize here that I *don't * mean that every time somebody asserts that they are injured, it's a type of sabotage, and don't attribute that motivation to steven, who is one of my favorite authors here.

The only conclusions I've come to, so far, are 1)these issues are way more complex than they look, and 2)I don't want to lose friends or communities over these issues.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

for me, was more of an anthropological/sociological discussion than a way of laying down rules.

It's amazing to me how often people think that I'm laying down rules when I post!

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Alphalop's picture

If nothing else than for that sign. Smile

I love that, gotta be from New Jersey, lol!

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

gulfgal98's picture

I actually had someone over at the other place pre-edict time tell me that when I said that Hillary Clinton was a neo-liberal, I was slurring her. Here is the comment made in response to my comment that Hillary and Bill Clinton are neo-liberals.

Just because you believe a caricature doesn’t make it true.
S-Chip expansion under Clinton did more to help hungry children than just about anything in the past 30 years.
But, hey, if you use the derisive term “neoliberal” enough to demonize and distort, maybe that’ll change reality!

While I do not use the objectionable words in my writing here, in the case above, what is objectionable was in the eye of the beholder even when it is the truth.

That said, I have no problem characterizing Hillary Clinton as a serial liar who will say whatever she needs to say at the time without later remorse, a neo-liberal who is power and money hungry, and the most overtly corrupt Presidential candidate in my voting life. Who needs objectionable slurs when the truth carries far more weight anyway.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Shahryar's picture

somehow the call to not use the b-word or c-word when discussing Hillary Clinton is now "what?? you'd call people a n-----?" When nobody's doing that. It's pretty weird, at least to me.

Similar tactics are used by liars. For example, one that I use a lot (because it's local) is this issue of developers knocking down beautiful old houses and putting up cheap apartment buildings that they can rent out for huge amounts. These new buildings don't have parking because it costs money and reduces the number of units so the developers and their cronies on the city council peddle them as "green". They claim that since there are no parking facilities, the tenants will all be bicyclists. Of course it's not true. Almost all of them have one car, some have two and they have to be parked somewhere, increasing local congestion.

Yet it gets framed as "what? You deny global warming?" How in the world do they get that? But it's a way of shaming people and keeping them quiet.

Steven's intent was not to do that but it IS how it gets used. We see shiz saying she's thinking of leaving. We see people getting accusatory to others here for no good reason!

All because the thing's gotten way twisted, from a specific argument concerning Hillary to a general. Somehow those who think Hillary IS a b-word are now being seen as closet racists. And anyone not agreeing that those people are racists or sexists or whatever are awful and this site harbors terrible people....who should be banned! Or else "I'm leaving!!"

All of which makes me think that if any of us see bad behavior that offends us we should deal with it one-to-one rather than have a vague discussion that makes us turn on each other.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Shahryar's picture

and this is specific to Hillary Clinton.

The b-word is used, in this case, to describe a person due to her actions.

The n-word is used to describe a person for simply living.

Can we all see the difference?

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elenacarlena's picture

I'm not saying those who use the B word would also use the N word. I'm saying the opposite. Almost everyone agrees they would NOT use the N word. Even for Obomber, who almost everyone agrees is Hillary Part 1. But why not? Describing him as a despicable person for his actions in the Middle East. Why don't you use the N word? Because it's racist. Why, if you're only using it to refer to him as a specific person who does specifically bad things? Because it's a dehumanizing word against an entire group of people that can lead to an attack.

Well, the same is true of the B word. Except now it's a dehumanizing word against women, and usually used prior to being attacked by a "loved one" rather than a stranger. Somehow this makes it OK? I'm not buying it.

If the N word is racist even if only used to attack Obama because of his disgusting actions in the Middle East, then the B word is sexist even if only used to attack Hillary because of her disgusting actions in the Middle East.

That blacks' insistence that whites not use the N word is respected, while women's insistence that men not use the B word is derided as babyish and overly emotional, especially by "progressives," shows how pervasive and insidious sexism still is. Some are even today still denying the similarity of those two requests.

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ggersh's picture

From a hill shill, when one can't attack the message, attack the messenger

https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/771490130305683457

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I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

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