#DemExit: Looks like I will be voting for Trump....
It's been a long time since I have blogged - around a year I think. So many names here I do not recognize, but I am thankful many from joanne's "What Happening" and joe's "Evening Blues" and the old Anti-War crowd are here. So a big hello to all of you I know and those I do not. You've all come together and built a great blog. I’ve done my DemExit (this month) and now have my official NO PARTY AFFIL in hand. It was something I had planned on doing for some time, for so many different reasons. Reading the below, you would never know that in 2008, I voted for Obama twice and was consumed back then with getting him elected.
It hurts to remember in 2008 how anti-war this country was. But somehow Mr. Obama would make endless war acceptable and our voices against effectively silenced. The president who was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize early in 2009 now has the distinction of being the longest serving war time president in the history of our country. The irony!
But my reason for re-engaging online has to do with the title of this diary. As reported the past week, it is the intention of the president to proceed with getting the TPP passed, lame duck. That’s a two-fer for him; Get it passed to repay his corporate backers before he goes out of office and to protect Clinton so that she can tell us all as she solicits votes, how TPP just does not meet “her” standards for what a good trade agreement must be so she cannot support it.
You would think that Mr. Obama's ultimate corporate payoff (with the cooperation of his buddy Eric Holder) had already been done with the lack of any criminal charges (not even a grand jury called) against his Wall St buddies. But that is not the case. Other corporations must have their payback also.
Eric Schultz said after the convention ended…..“So the president is acutely aware of the politics around this, but that's not going to stop him from getting this done,” he said. “Our focus has been on generating votes in the United States Congress both in the House and in the Senate. The president absolutely believes this deal should pass this year.”
So Obama’s got Clinton’s back and Clinton’s got Obama’s back. The long con, the short con, the big con, whatever. It is a con that will deliver my vote to Trump. I want to look the enemy in the face, not through his or her camouflage.
My 80 year old neighbor (still registered as a Dem) who voted Sanders said he will be voting Trump in November. He wants change, real change for the better, sick of the status quo in DC. I have to tell you how shocked I was to hear him say that - and yet here I am.
Obama has said that his opinion is that Clinton is more qualified than he is to be president. Shouldn’t he then trust her judgment on TPP? And if not, why not? Of course, that is a stretch too far for me to believe either of them.
Just for a moment assume I do, shouldn’t Clinton go to Obama, and say “Barack, you’re killing me here. Stop with the TPP, let it go and let me deal with trade agreements when I’m president. Everyone knows when I take a position I stick with it, come hell or high water, just like the Iraq War. I’ve got this, Barack, just stand down, okay?”
And of course recognizing her presidental qualifications are far superior to his own, he then demurs, right?
I have meandered on longer and in more directions that I meant to when I started typing this. Forty plus years of being a Dem, and now, strangely liberating to no longer be. Fancy that.
Comments
Poor HRC
She has vowed to carry on Obama's legacy, so if he gets the TPP passed, she will just have to go along won't she. It won't matter that she wanted to change a few words to make sure the noose was tight enough. The TPP has no escape clause other than pitchforks.
You make such an excellent point that if HRC went to Obama and told him to "cut it out" that he would bow to her greater experience. (PS. I do not buy the argument that she is the most qualified person to ever run for president or ever nominated.)
For sooooo very many reasons, I do not want to see the Clintons back in the White House, so the only choice I have to guarantee that is to vote for Trump (yuck!).
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
Hi WindDancer13
My plans were to decide whether to vote Green, write in Sanders, or abstain and any of those still apply - if Obama does step back from the abyss.
If he doesn't it just is too much of a conspiracy between the Clinton Camp and the White House.
Who knows, perhaps there is still hope he will do the right thing.
We have around 100 days to find out.
Each person has to choose their own route.
Mine is to do what I can to make sure that HRC is not elected. There is nothing that is going to change that.
The fact that Obama has and continues to push for the TPP, had offered up social security to the Republicans, chose a Republican version of health care and is pursuing a war to end all wars doesn't bode well for people (and those examples of his legacy are just the tip). His support for HRC is because he knows that she will uphold, continue and expand on this legacy of destruction.
They (Obama, HRC and establishment Democrats) have already used up the last of their nine lives. No more chances. They cannot be trusted.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
Hillary's first order of business
Will be to confront Assad and enforce a no-fly zone in Syria. This will put us in direct opposition to Russia, and make us effective allies of ISIS, statements to the contrary not withstanding.
Voting for Trump is beyond odious, but it has the advantage of canceling out a Clinton vote, something that abstention won't do.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
He will not do the right thing...
He just signed the DARK Act into law.
Wha-a-at? Gag me with a GMO corn syrup coated spoon !! n/t
Yea, I'm sorry, but he did it.
I don't know that I have a problem w/ all GMO's, if pesticide isn't part of the genetics, but I have a problem w/ our president signing a ban on states wanting to require GMO labeling in their state. Vermont had already passed this, so the DARK Act will OVERTURN the state law requiring labeling.
Very well-named law: keep us in the DARK
and feed us bullshit.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Hmm.
230 Republicans voted for it in the House, vs 12 against it.
45 Democrats voted for it, vs 138 against it.
This is what the "Democratic" Party has come to. A substantial minority is just as evil as the Republicans, and the "Democratic" president is all in with the Republicans.
Those 12 Republicans may be keepers.
I am afraid that many people are going to go gung ho on getting rid of Republicans that the good ones will be replaced by worthless corporate Democrats.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
Takes more than one vote to evaluate someone.
They may very well have voted against the bill because it wasn't nasty enough. Reviewing other votes might shift the evaluation from "reasonable" to "batshit crazy", with this vote as a deceptive outlier. In any case, I don't think it's worth it. They still identify as Republican. Seems to me any reasonable person would have at the least dropped the Republican Party label and gone independent.
As for "worthless corporate Democrats", yeah. So long as there are party-specific primaries, I think the action is in the Democratic primaries. Like the upcoming Democratic primary in Florida for the U.S. Senate; Grayson vs Murphy. The Democratic bigwigs hate Grayson, but they sure love Murphy. Which fits.
That is why I said "may be" not "are."
There are still some worthwhile Republicans, and they should not be rejected just becasue they have an (R) behind their name. People really need to research each and every person running in their state/county/city, not just vote for a label.
If we had been voting for liberal R's over corporate D's for the last few decades, we might not now be in the position we are in. As a reminder, there was a greater percentage of Republicans who voted FOR the Civil Rights bill and Voting Rights bill in the 60s than the percentage of Democrats who voted for those bills.
It is the record that matters, not the label.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
Hillary: "Don't throw me in that briar patch!"
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Welcome to freedom
#DemExit'ed myself last week and it feels great to finally be free to support candidates that represent the greater good rather than be stuck with lesser evils forever.
Love is my religion.
can't believe it took me so
can't believe it took me so long, kept meaning to.
it is liberating not to be a part of that wall st / war mongering crowd - you'd think i was talking about Republicans wouldn't you! Sad that it now describes the Dems, as well.
evening allenjo...
glad to see you again, i hope that all is going well for you and your family.
i am thinking that voting for jill stein might be a better vote to make in that she credibly stands for a lot more progressive issues than trump. i think that this election we will see an awful lot more support for stein, her name is getting around and i'm hearing people that i didn't even think were politically conscious expressing interest in voting for her.
hi joe
long time passing - how are you?
it is good to see you again also.
perhaps it will be jill, because I really really do not "want" to vote Trump, but if Obama/Clinton screw us over with the TPP, I am pretty sure I am joining my 80 year old neighbor, out the door and over to crazyland.
It would be great if jill could get on the debates, assuming there will be debates
As for my family, crazyland describes Greece pretty well now. The worst it has ever been economically and going further into the toilet by the day. The refugee/migrants crisis of course is a whole other crazyland there.
doing well...
i'm busy a lot, but it is a good sort of busy for the most part. everybody at chez shikspack is well and reasonably healthy even in this time of encroaching, stifling humidity.
i keep an eye on the news from greece periodically and i think of your family and hope that they are finding ways to keep going in a neoliberal sacrifice zone.
chez shikspack!
I spend a lot of time on the news in Greece aside from talking with my family. My heart just keeps breaking.
This whole Turkey debacle scares me - the increase of the boats filled up with people have started up again. Nothing but even more problems ahead for an already overwhelmed bankrupt country. And then the people get there and say the internet is too slow, the food is not good, there is no air-conditioning, no cable tv, the mattresses are lumpy, why won't Greece give us our own house, or our own private bathroom and kitchen, we want money we have to buy smokes, why are you giving used clothes, etc. etc. (okay, I am joking - but only partly) I have to think those that say that are the economic migrants and not those truly fleeing the horrors of war.
I am not the bleeding heart liberal I was once. And that makes me sad.
turkey is a serious problem...
i think that it may yet explode. erdogan is a cunning man, but he seems to like to push his luck.
the refugees coming to greece probably have outsized expectations of european wealth and wealth equality. they come from countries where inequality is far greater than in europe, but wealth is still quite concentrated in europe. the dark european overlords are no more interested in sharing their wealth than the dark middle eastern overlords they left behind.
I see Europe’s ruling elite as being in denial about some things
Among those things, the topic “ethics and effects of economic migrants and migrations” is a real biggie.
“U.S.-NATO wars of choice as the cause of mass refugee exodus” is another biggie.
By not facing the issues squarely and honestly, they’ve invited the populist Right to waltz right in and usurp social-democratic parties’ traditional position as the voice of ordinary working people.
Keep in mind
If Jill can get 5% of the overall vote, it secures $20 million in federal funding for future presidential elections.
Sure, that's not overwhelming--but it's not exactly peanuts either. It'd be really nice to have a viable 3rd party that actually represents our views (or at least my views--you'd have to decide for yourself, of course).
Something to cheer you up a little.
I know this is an internet poll but they set it up so you could only vote once and have a sample size of over 117,000 respondents.
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/758855786806190080
Too big to be ignored?
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
It's Definitely Not "Throwing Your Vote Away"
I think it's something to point out to people who say that.
If Stein gets less than 5%, it's a protest vote.
If Stein gets 5% or more, it makes the Green Party more viable in future elections because of the federal funding.
If Stein polls at 15% or more, it gets her on stage at the main debates.
If Stein gets or polls at 27%, she begins to have a shot at winning in a 3 or 4 way race.
Benefits accrue at each stage. It's not all or nothing.
Regarding Stein vs. Trump
It depends on your goal. If the goal is keeping Clinton out of the WH at all cost, Trump is the answer. If your goal is to register a protest, or abstain, Stein is a genuine progressive.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
I would not hesitate to do that, either.
I live in a state that will absolutely not go for Clinton, so I am "privileged" to vote for Stein without helping Clinton, but if I lived in a state that might go for Clinton, I would vote for Trump in a nanosecond.
What state do you live in?
If you live in a solid red or blue electoral state, you should go third party! The reality is those states are basically set in stone on how they'll vote barring some major unforeseen event and any votes for a candidate beyond the +1 needed to win don't do anything. If the third parties get enough votes, they get more money and infrastructural benefits. In fact, in CA, it's the only way I can vote that has any meaning beyond window dressing.
Hi Dhyerwolf
Hi Dhyerwolf
I think polls are 50/50 here pretty much or close to it.
I am a displaced Southern Californian. While my body is here, my heart is there.
Hi Phil
I am in Florida, think it is pretty much a tossup state.
I cannot think of a worse presidency than of hillary clinton and that disaster of a convention is propelling me toward being more frightened of a Clinton one than a Trump one.
Having endured the squashing of the anti war voices under Obama, that would only intensify under Clinton.
As if Dem wars are good and only Rep wars are bad.
There actually are some things here and ther that I do not disagree with Trump on
From Reuters UK...
Not all of Donald Trump’s foreign policy positions are crazy
http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-trump-foreign-policy-commentary-idUKKCN...
Nevertheless, amid Trump’s showboating and frequently stream of consciousness thoughts, he raises some critical foreign policy questions that challenge the longtime Washington foreign policy consensus but deserve to be taken seriously.
First, Trump frequently asserts the United States cannot continue to be the "world's policeman," thus challenging the belief held by both Democrats and Republicans that the United States remains the world's "indispensable nation."
Allenjo, it is great to see you back!
I am still not sure what I am going to do. I cannot vote for Hillary under any circumstances. I spent four and a half years with a Peace vigil and that means there is no way I can go down the Clinton path. I have toyed with writing in Bernie, but now that is no longer an option. Right now I am leaning toward Jill Stein and that is probably where I will go. However, I cannot begrudge those here who will vote for Trump. Sometimes you have to blow it all up to find a better way.
It is a tough decision and I applaud your courage in sharing yours with us. And again, I am glad to see you back.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
"Sometimes you have to blow it all up to find a better way"
just sent you a message while you were typing this - about joanne, is anyone in touch with her?
Something drastic has to change. How to make that happen remains the question.
Hey GG, where are you at on the Senate Primary?
On one hand you got Murphy, A wall street crony, endorsed by Reid and Obama
Or we got Grayson, quite liberal from what I understand, but doesn't he have some allegations of domestic abuse hanging over his head?
I already got my #Demexit filled out and in the Envelop, but have been struggling for days on if I should send it in or wait till after the primary.
I am not enthused about either, but Grayson has a history of pissing off Reid and establishment dems apparently. Recently Harry Reid said,
It's almost worth sticking around just for one last Big Fuck You to the DNC establishment.
Grayson may not be able to beat the Republican, but every corrupt clinton endorser I can help keep out of office the better.
Did I mention I was torn? lol!
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
I am waiting to Dem Exit
for the primary here in Florida. I am not crazy about Grayson for reasons having nothing to do with his personal life. It is more about his big time support for Israel, but...I am going to vote for Grayson in the primary. Then I am going to Dem Exit.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
PLEASE stay in to vote for Grayson
An allegation is not a conviction, and Grayson's politics are fantastic. If he wins Reid and the rest of that monolithic rightwing mess that calls itself the Democratic Party will go into a decline.
Twain Disciple
Ok, I think you guys got me convinced.
I was kinda leaning that way anyway for pretty much all the reasons you both illustrated but I am grateful for the input.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
The added benefit
is that grayson votes will be viewed by Team Hillary as votes they cannot reach in the general. If he does well, it will scare them about their chances in FL. Make them scared and force them to spend more money.
An allegation is not a conviction
could be applied to Clinton too, as she's not been convicted of anything.
Isn't Grayson involved in an off-shore hedge fund? If so, that doesn't sound too "for the 99%" to me.
The problem is you can find large amounts of info on the net for either side you are investigating. Maybe Grayson is super, maybe he sucks, beats me.
I've seen how Grayson votes. He's a liberal.
I'm more interested in that than I am his personal business dealings. And I don't see what that has to do with Clinton or whether she's been convicted of anything. I don't want her rightwing policies anywhere near my government.
Twain Disciple
Great reason all by itself
"am not enthused about either, but Grayson has a history of pissing off Reid"
Can't think of much better reason than pissing off Reid, after what he did to us in Las Vegas.
Yeah, it was pretty much almost enough in and of itself. :)
Unfortunately if the polling is accurate he has quite a deficit to overcome.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Apparently the Dem Machine smears Grayson nonstop.
Reid despises him. Isn't Murphy one of those newly minted ex-Republican (nudge, nudge) Democrats?
Twain Disciple
Correct
Yes, Murphy was a Republican that the Democratic party recruited and has been grooming. Here is the Wikipedia page on Patrick Murphy. Scroll down to political positions and it is obvious why the Democratic party is supporting him.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
That's why Grayson needs to leave the Democratic party
He's already got the visibility; what else could anybody need from that wretched hive of scum and villainy?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'm in MI.....
If the polls are close, I plan to vote for Trump. If they aren't close, I will vote for Jill Stein and hope my one little vote helps her somehow in the long run. 100 days is a long time. Lots can happen. I will keep my options open until I have to decide.
Welcome to c99.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Same here
in Ohio DK. If the polls are close I'll go trump. If not Jill it is. I was going to go with Jill for sure but after watching the freak show this week I got scared shitless. Clinton cannot have here grubby fingers anywhere near the launch codes.
I've got the same plan down here in Florida.
It's a swing state though, so I probably won't know which way I will be able to go until the last minute unless Hillary pulls a magnificent implosion of her candidacy. (Something I feel is still quite possible.)
More and more I am starting to wonder if Clinton will have to withdraw from the race due to, "unexpected health issues" at the last minute clearing the field for Biden whom Trump will then have little chance to attack or debate.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
I agree
And this is where I may eventually go. I honestly believe that Hillary Clinton is a real threat to world Peace.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
100 days is a long time. Lots can happen
So true, dk
With the way of the world today and the almost constant breaking news, who knows.
It's too soon to know which vote will hit the Sweet Spot
The Sweet Spot being a vote that directly bars the Clintons from occupying the White House and one that lands a grave defeat upon the Democratic Party and its Bosses.
Hi allenjo. Thanks for sharing your thoughtful deliberation.
As election day approaches, I think it will become clearer where our votes will hit the hardest and get the job done. Meanwhile, there are a number of possible events that could alter the target vote. But if the People rise up as one, and deny the presidency to the only war criminal in the race, the rest of the political class will check themselves at once. If it takes a vote for Donald Trump to stop Clinton's depraved grasp for power, that vote should be cast proudly.
Those who vote as a principled Bloc (both moral and political) to defeat Hillary at all costs, and hobble the march of US terrorism across the planet — I regard them as 21st century heroes. They will help the American people recover from the Neoliberal onslaught that has harmed them so, and allow them to get a grip on self-government to benefit all of the people. There is simply no reason to have a government that not in the businesses of benefitting the people and growing an ever stronger, and more enlightened society. Anything else is an abomination.
IMO, of course.
Yr friend,
Pluto
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Washington State
Is my home. Bernie country. I voted for Bernie in the caucus.
Voting Trump in the Presidential election.
Change is good!!!!!!!!!!!
Bernie was my candidate, and he's still a hero to me
I now support Jill Stein for President, mostly because the Green platform she built and supports is the best fit for me.
The Green Party is going to grow and be on the ballot if the current level of citizen interest in the Green Party continues, allowing for more and more people to learn about the Green platform, thus easing the transition for progressive Democrats to become Green Party members as part of a wave.
With Hillary edging as far right as she can in her trademark "triangulating move to the center" fashion, she will create a political gap to her left which could be filled by the Green Party. Now, Hillary wants to maintain as much support as she can on her left, so I don't think she will attack the Greens, figuring the less publicity she gives us, the less support she will lose.
I am excited to working for a Party and candidate I respect.
Be a Friend of the Earth, cherish it and protect it.
A vote for Trump
Voting for Trump, although I feel his environmental policy is awful, and worse than HRC's, which is terrible enough, can be combined with voting for principled progressives down ballot in Congressional, state and local elections, which indeed are ignored all too often with the result of kakistocracies like we have in Wisconsin. The result of having progressive down ballot people winning along with Trump is his worst tendencies can be stopped. One can probably create gridlock by voting in a Democratic congress and/or State government along with Trump which would be better than either an Obama 2.0 first term or even worse, an HRC administration with a Republican congress. At this point a Trump gridlock would be preferable to the bipartisan "getting things done" that has promoted most of us to slowly bleed to death.
I will still likely vote for Stein, though I acknowledge that much of the arguments everyone is making to vote for Trump are valid, especially with regards to war policy. HRC's is beyond awful.
Be wary of voting for Trump, his self-control is non-existent
Should Trump be elected, he will ignore Congress, just like he ignores every other regulatory body. He will use his position as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces to create a de-facto military dictatorship.
To my friends who know Hillary is a war-monger, but plan to vote for Trump, let me warn you: Trump is beyond rational bounds, he may start WW3 just because he is pissed off at somebody on TV.
Be a Friend of the Earth, cherish it and protect it.
I've got Trump at a 50% chance
of destroying the world, but Hillary's 100%.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
You're right on the first estimate, the second isn't driven
by rational analysis.
@subirgrewal
It's a hyperbolic statement
exaggerated, but not irrational.
Hillary has already begun rolling the dice on a hot war between superpowers. Her actions show a dedication toward goading Putin until something blows.
Or maybe she just knows that he'll roll over and show her his tummy and whimper, whatever she does.
I wouldn't want to make that gamble, but then, unlike Hillary, I have no illusions of personal invulnerability; unlike Hillary, I also still have empathy.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The military will not listen to him;
they've already stated as much.
Can you explain the exact process employed by a President
…to do this:
What is the first extra-legal step he would take and how would a President fund such a thing?
How would he go about bringing the United Nations and the rest of the world on board with the overthrow of the US government?
I'd like to know what to watch for as a US President goes completely rogue against the will of the People and over the objections of the entire congress. I would especially like to analyze the exact moment when 250 years of steady checks and balances in the Federal government instantly stop working.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
How many guns does the UN have?
Any attempt by another country to meddle in US affairs will be used by Trump as an excuse to conduct a wholesale purge of whatever institutions still offer a threat. Look at Turkey if you want a current example of how this is done. Judges, politicians, journalists, they will all be thrown into jail at the point of a gun, branded as treasonous.
Only people who have never seen this particular saga play out in another country, or are naive enough to believe tautoligies like this can never happen here because "we're america and therefore exceptional" can make the case for Trump.
@subirgrewal
You accuse others of not using rational analysis?
Where's yours? It's easy to paint a doomsday scenario, but that is not rational analysis. Please explain how all of these people will be throws in jails without the slightest resistance from he establishment, the military, and the populace.
Because we have seen this happen in numerous places.
There's a pattern to the way purges are conducted. Trump already has a good 40% of the country supporting him. Let's say there was an attack, even a failed attack, and he decided to implicate a group of people, then widen the net to attach others who defended them.
Even strong institutions can be circumvented when you have a frightened populace and claim there are existential threats. Think Japanese internment, but not with FDR in command, but someone like Trump. How far would it go, whom would it take down, and what would the response be to resistance.
It's not that difficult to see how it could all spiral out of control. There is a chain of command, and he's already taken to deriding certain generals. No doubt he'd pick pliant generals. This happens all the time, it's currently happening in China at a very large scale across the army, judiciary and regional politics and most people don't know it's going on.
@subirgrewal
Biblical Proportions even...
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmzuRXLzqKk]
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Wasn't Obama coming to the door first to take our guns?
And I know for sure that the next thing to expect is hoards of black people on the march, coming in to take my food. Doomsday Preppers told me.
After that, Trump will have the US military stationed all over the US with orders to shoot anyone in the US who says one word against him.
Because President Vagina isn't in the White House.
As for the rest of the world, they would cheer this on. They've been hoping something like this would befall the greatest terrorist threat on the planet. They would not lift a finger to help. But the US would instantly become the new North Korea, and they no longer would be seated at any international table.
All because the people voted for Trump.
Amirite?
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Trump?
I would not vote for Trump because I don't like him at all,
because I don't believe as he does... or I would be a
global warming denier
believer in the power of guns (contrary to the evidence)
hater of immigrants
hater of regulations that protect clean air, water, health, safety and life
and those would be my good qualities.
Even Bernie Sanders thinks Hilary is better than Trump and so do I.
I would never vote for Trump, but I would vote for Jill Stein.
I do care if my vote would contribute to a Trump victory in my state.
I think Hilary has no problem taking California, so I can vote for Jill Stein.
In a very swing state, I would vote Hilary to stop Trump.
Then again, are they really counting the votes? I am not sure they are.
If you live in a corrupt state where they rig the elections... what difference
does it make?
The headline in the alternative-left German daily “taz”
sums up the 2016 presidential election choice in three words:
Clinton or Change
They get it.
Clinton = status quo, except with even more war and Deep State integration with Israel.
Like it or not, change means Trump.
I am in NY, solid blue, maybe? At this point, I will go Stein.
Personally, I could never vote for Hillary, and could not even fill in the bubble by her name to block Trump. I have friends here who seem to be leaning Clinton, first signs including excessive Obama adulation. God forbid that Michelle Obama ever decides to run, then for those people, back into identity politics in a terminal mode. Sigh.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
"if voting changed anything
they'd make it illegal"
Hey allenjo, good to see you. Hope you're well. I'm here but only off and on, I do read and comment a bit elsewhere as well.
Im trying a hiatus of sorts from all this election stuff, Im still reading but hiatus more in the sense of... I dunno, on the one hand, we have 100 days til the GE, a lot can happen. On the other hand, in my gut I feel the fix is in and we need to shift our attention (or at least ALSO) more to movement building and whatnot. Not that I have any particular skills to really help much with that, heh, but I do what I can. Im a bit conflicted too, but keep reminding myself that we really need both inside and outside work done. I do think the time is ripe for a "realignment". Hate to see 'The Left' fracture and splinter but to some extent that is almost necessary.
PS joanneleon is active mostly on twitter these days.
Allenjo!
Welcome to the diaspora destination from ToP.
The Ides of March, 100's of Brock-paid new users crowd sourcing on anyone not touting the party line, the great purge of 2016. (I was around for multiple ones going back 5 years, never seen anything like this)
My estimation is that the best and brightest are here now.
And now, so are you.
Prof: Nancy! I’m going to Greece!
Nancy: And swim the English Channel?
Prof: No. No. To ancient Greece where burning Sapho stood beside the wine dark sea. Wa de do da! Nancy, I’ve invented a time machine!
Firesign Theater
Stop the War!
I can't imagine how anyone with a progressive bone in their body
could be voting for Trump. The man is full of hate. Voting for him is equivalent to supporting neo-nazis and racists.
There are other options, Trump should not be one.
@subirgrewal
He *should* not, but he got the R nomination,
and he got it fair and square - UNLIKE the D "nomination", which was forced, coerced, cheated, lied and stolen.
If you are playing tic-tac-toe, though - which seems to be a popular game among voters - it's almost more important to block the other player than to win the game yourself. (Why almost all tic-tac-toe games are stalemates!)
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Trump is immensely corrupt
The man is willing to cheat poor people out of their last savings by dangling get-rich-quick schemes in front of him.
I have no doubt if elected, his administration will be spectacularly corrupt. That is always the pattern with fascist strongmen. I've seen this movie before, I have no interest in seeing it play out here in the US. It boggles my mind that so many people are so unaware of the dangers.
As for the primary, you should read Jane Sanders' interview. She agrees that the margin was so wide it is tough to contest the result. Given more time, given more resources, fewer mistakes, the results could have been different. But this is politics, you don't get do overs. I'd like to see Bernie help defeat Trump and then either lead a lefty takeover of the democratic party or help build a third-party. But defeating Trump is the number 1 job. Bernie hasn't disappointed me yet.
@subirgrewal
And there you have it: two equally arguable propositions.
Is defeating Trump really the number 1 job?
Or is defeating Hillary the number 1 job?
Or is that entire A-or-B framework obsolete, a distraction, and a scam — with the number 1 job being something else entirely?
[ c99p credits roll — A JtC PRODUCTION — etc. ]
The problem is
that all of your complaints can be leveled at clinton as well. If you think her admin will not be spectacularly corrupt- given the Clinton Foundation scandal alone- I'd say you're naive.
We have kicked the can down the road since we first elected bill clinton. Maybe that is before your time, but that line has lost its efficacy. I would argue that acquiescing once again to the neoliberal cabal while fantasizing about a glorious future is merely an excuse to allow things to continue their spiral entropy. Furthermore, clinton would be a huge opponent to the movement. She would spend the next four years assiduously trying to undermine the movment. A trump presidency forces the Dems into opposition mode (instead of being compliant lackeys), which would only help the movement because they will be forced to voice the positions we espouse.
As for the primary result, neither Jane Sanders nor anyone else can say with any authority that the DNC's unethical (and possibly illegal) conduct did not affect the outcome. The fact that they felt compelled to engage in this conduct indicates that they were frightened of the possibility of a Sanders victory. If they didn't sincerely fear him, it would make no sense to smear him and his supporters the way they did. Using an appeal to authority is both a logical fallacy and an attempt to excuse the unconscionable behavior of the DNC and Clinton campaign.
I can't believe anybody is making this argument seriously
There was a blatant payoff in NYC to an election official who subsequently purged 196,000 Brooklynites from the voter rolls. Whole city blocks were purged. That was just one incident of many this election season. No way to count how many people's voter registrations were hacked and changed without their consent, leaving them unable to vote.
It's patently ridiculous in the digital age to say "Well, the margins of her victory were SO BIG it's hard to argue there was election fraud." It's not like 2000, when Bush folks literally threw boxes of paper ballots into the Atlantic (among other things). Data is data. Is it harder to flip 5,000 digitally recorded votes than 5?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Clinton's margin of victory was 313,724 votes
in NY. What happened with the voter rolls in Brooklyn is more likely than no incompetence, and would not have led to a Sanders victory.
I looked at NY closely and it was difficult to come up with a Sanders victory. For whatever reason, Bernie's message didn't get through to many, and I can give you a hundred reasons that I've heard from voters in and around NY. None of them requires subterfuge, Clinton's name recognition, the close association with Obama, support from most of the NY delegation (whom she'd worked with and traded political favors with for years), and not least, the sense that "it was her time" because she'd been denied the nomination in 2008.
It wasn't entirely fair, but the margin was so large that it was fair enough. No one said elections always return the right result.
@subirgrewal
Read your argument again.
Because it sounds like a whole lot of:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU]
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
This is a shocking statement.
In other words, you can fix an election, as long as the margins are big enough.
In a world where most election-fixing is done via digital manipulation of data sets, that's like saying: "Fix the election? Well, OK, maybe it's not entirely fair, but you made it look good enough we can all pretend you won fair and square."
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'll take a little corruption.
If that means we don't elect a race-baiting, xenophobic, white supremacist like Donald Trump. Remember, this is the guy who took out full page ads in NY newspapers demanding the death penalty for the central park 5.
So you want to blow everything up? Problem is, we're all within the blast radius.
I see no scenario where electing Trump is a positive. None. He would be a disaster.
@subirgrewal
No worse than her.
Your fear is overtaking any sense of objectivity you might have. I get it. Fear is powerful.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
It wasn't "a little" corruption.
It wasn't one incident. It was many.
It also included hacking people's voter registration data and changing it without their consent, which meant they couldn't vote in closed primaries. That happened in state after state. If you're willing to accept that, then you've essentially said goodbye to democracy because a scary racist guy got in front of a camera.
But if you're willing to accept the "little corruption' of election-rigging and voter suppression because of the scary racist guy, then it doesn't follow that you should have any anxiety over how people cast their votes. In a system where election fraud is accepted, the person with the most resources to commit election fraud wins. That's not Trump, who has far fewer political connections--and also lacks the personal connection with the Bushes that Hillary Clinton has. You couldn't ask for a better ally in election fraud than the gents from Kennebunkport.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'm in a solid blue state...
...Massachusetts, so will be voting Stein. I really had to laugh at that Obama line about HRC being the most qualified person to ever run. During an internet contretemps the other day, I had that thrown at me. "More qualified than Thomas Jefferson?" I asked. That ended the discussion.
Semper ubi sub ubi
I won't support any candidate of a major party
Although for reasons stated in this article, I do think that Trump winning would be somewhat "better" than the Clinton Crime Syndicate in power.
http://www.greanvillepost.com/2016/07/31/trump-or-clinton/
I am supporting the ten point platform of the Worker's World Party http://www.workers.org/wwp/program/ and at the same time electorally the capitalist Green Party.
From the Light House.
As far as I know, Assata is free
Thanks to Cuba.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver