If Russia Interfering In Our Elections Is Our New National Concern
The DNC hack has given rise to numerous articles voicing horror and concern over the possibility that Russian hackers under the control of Putin harvested and are disseminating emails that will embarrass and divide the Democratic Party and Hillary Clinton in order to aid the election of Putin fanboy Donald Trump. That's the gist of these stories. They all focus on this particular incident without broadening out the implications. But the underlying thesis is:
We don't want foreign governments interfering in the American political process.
I'm fine with that and I agree with that. But, if we are going to get agitated over DNC/Trump/Putin, I would have to wonder why we don't show the same concerns over:
*Foreign governments contributing to the Clinton Foundation and its various arms. I'm not limiting this to the Clinton Foundation, but any charitable/non profit foundation that has direct ties and links to American elected officials in positions of power and influence that also interacts and takes funds from foreign governments or companies with business before the US Government
*American subsidiaries of foreign companies or governments making political contributions allowed by Citizen's United. This was openly voiced as a great concern of many in the hearings before the Supreme Court basically legalized bribery as Free Speech.
*Foreign companies upending, overturning or preventing in advance American regulation and legislation through the instrument of the ISDS tribunals in various trade pacts such as NAFTA, the TPP, etc.
In my opinion, one can't care about the Trump/Putin situation and then turn a blind eye to the other situations. I'm looking at YOU, American media. I'm also looking at anyone talking Trump/Putin to address the other issues I've laid out.
Comments
It doesn't matter when we are blaming
the Russians and/or rethugs. Self-reflection is not in order where the dems are concerned. Nosiree. Ain't happening.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Talking about Russia! is a deflection to avoid the topic
of what was revealed, but if people are going to shout Squirrel! there's a whole bunch of similar squirrels and I think we should examine the whole scurry.
Money controls elections and those elected in our current system. So what's the source of the money? I've read that foreign money gets washed by flowing through numerous PACS or other entities until the origin is obscured.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
Yes, it is deflection.
Raggedy Andy hates all things Herr Drumpf (HD). Last night he started to bag on HD about his Russia! remarks. I stopped him and said that HD's words are merely the newest MSM distraction from what was revealed in those emails. It was like cold water in the face for him. He didn't see that angle - he was mired in his HD hatred. That's what they're banking on.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Much like demonizing Snowden and Greenwald
to divert from the fact that our government was--and is--daily ignoring the Bill of Rights. And I can't even discuss poor Chelsea Manning.
Precisely! eom
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
The Russians are coming
We've not heard a peep lately about the Clinton (Bill) connection to the Russian buyout of Uranium on our own continent. And other than here and a select few news outlets have we heard one snit about the American (Hillary Clinton) connection to overthrow the elected leaders in the Honduras. We send election observers all over the world to assure fair and free elections... but we are witnessing , first hand, the puppet election of a pre-ordained oligarch right here at home...with impunity!!
We only have standards for others!
Please get that straight or you will continue to suffer. America requires no standards of itself, only of other countries.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
What is “power”? In freshman Poli Sci in the 60s, we were taught
that not having to follow the same rules that others do is one of the defining characteristics of power.
The reasoning went like this. If you have to follow rules, then it’s the system of rules and the people or entities that enforce the rules that have power, not you. Being able to flaunt the rules or principles is the sign, the hallmark of power.
So — according to this mid-1960s establishment doctrine — those with power, or seeking it, are always going to be pretty blatant about breaking, ignoring, or twisting rules and principles as a way of testing where they stand.
People or entities that have “arrived” or have still “got it,” will succeed in getting away with a lot.
People or entities of a lower rank or of a higher rank but losing their grip, will be forced to back down or submit to sanctions.
Even though the doctrine sounds pernicious — basically, the conclusion is that adhering to rules and principles is for suckers and the powerless — we were assured that this doctrine was the “grownup” or “realistic” or “pragmatic” or “tough-minded” way of looking at things.
“This is university. We’re going to talk about how the world really works. Forget everything you learned in middle and high school civics.”
Half a century later, and among our elites this “philosophy,” this notion of what power is and demands, is still entrenched, methinks.
Excellent comment!
Indeed, I've worked with those in power and have held some of that "no rules for me" power, as well. However, I never felt right stepping outside the rules as my peers did. I felt I was cheating them and myself.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
That's not the definition I
That's not the definition I would pick, but they're not wrong.
If I understand you correctly, you seem to be suggesting that we can change what power is, as if by adopting an altogether more wholesome definition or view of power, we can in turn make the powerful more wholesome themselves.
Well, that's crap. The powerful do not cheat because someone told them that cheating is what powerful people do. They cheat because they can.
The left's poor grasp on realpolitik is one reason (among many) why right-populism will probably win out. Even a idjit country bumpkin can tell that you don't take back a dictatorship with hugs.
Mao & Co. melded idjit country bumpkins into a real revolution
https://community.travelchinaguide.com/forum2.asp?i=42870
So yes, there’s that.
Mao's statement about power
Mao's statement about power flowing from the barrel of a gun was imprecise - power comes mostly from obedience, not weapons. But he was wise to choose guns over hugs... and he did, indeed, win his revolution.
Welcome to the Clinton Restoration
We have scandals, scandals everywhere, as far as the eye can see.
We have Hillary defending herself with lies and donning the professional victim mantle.
We have Wall Street and other billionaire buddies buying offices and influence.
We have a complete disdain for democratic principles in the Democratic Party.
We have scapegoating of a wide swath of the party base, with a guest appearance by Bernie Sanders playing Sistah Souljah.
And, in a fresh wrinkle, a reinvented Cold War to give shape and incentive to the warmongering and interference around the world.
But hey, at least she's not Donald Trump.
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All this*
to not talk about Democratic corruption/election stealing by Her Royal Clintonness
*American media drivel/desperation
Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.
Was it Voltaire
that said; " To learn who rules over you, first determine who you are forbidden to talk about?"
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
We don't seem to worry much
when someone actually overturns an election in, say, Iran, Chile, Honduras, and maybe a few other places...
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
We don't seem to worry much
When someone overturns an election here. As long as it's the someone who was supposed to win, anyway.
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That was one of those all-inclusive
other places.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
read the thread
Guess i should have read the thread before I piped in. My thoughts are certainly reflected in prior posted comments.
Excellent Diary Phoebe
But people often think alike independently
nothing wrong with that! I always like to read someone else and think, "gee, I could have written that". It's nice to know sometimes you're not the only one with a certain impression.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
You're the only poster who has ever done that.
(wink)
Besides, some thoughts bear repeating.
Magic Unicorn & Fairy Dust Thinking on the part of DNC Dems
Imagine--just because "the Russians" may have originally stolen the DNC's internal emails and broadcast their contents to everyone, the next logical thought we should all have is "everything written in those emails is FALSE"
Magical thinking, that. I think we should push back on it as the craven Conspiracy Theory that it is and plaster their propaganda posts with all those Tinfoil memes, repeatedly. Their bullshit does not deserve consideration by serious, thinking people. It deserves nothing but repeated mocking of anyone pushing it.
I am so sick of those people. The more they show me, the more I'm convinced I will never vote for Her.
In the 2015 film "Truth" the saga of Dan Rather and
Mary Mapes investigation of GW Bush's National Guard service is dissected. While John Kerry is being Swiftboated with regard to his military service, Rather and Mapes at CBS 60 Minutes tried to show that Dubya had skipped out on his commitment to the National Guard. They heard from several sources that this was the case, but the records had mysteriously disappeared.
The they were told that a former serviceman had documents proving the allegations. Military personnel will keep copies of paperwork for the record, so this wasn't unreasonable. The documents were handed over in a rather dramatic fashion and CBS worked to authenticate them. They went on-air with the story and within hours right-wing internet sites blew up contending the documents were the product of Microsoft Word.
The rest lives in infamy. Rather and Mapes were fired from CBS and their careers were wrecked. The story became all about the genuineness of the documents or lack thereof, rather than the truth of Dubya's National Guard service. Meanwhile, the Swiftboating of Kerry, based on innuendo and smear was wildly successful.
I have always suspected that this attack on Rather was payback for his intense questioning of GHW Bush in an interview a few years before. Bush I's intelligence community connections would probably make such a PsyOp against Rather possible. The disgrace of Rather and Mapes could serve as an object lesson to other journalists. The lesson is that the truth doesn't matter, only the perception of truth.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
That was a routine concept in 1960s freshman Poli Sci as well.
What mattered was not truth, but so-called “operational truth” (whatever framework of lies and disinformation you could get the public or a specific target audience to believe and act upon as if it were true).
Forgive me, I'm not seeing a connection here
between this post and mine. Though your post describes what happened to Rather and is factual, the leaked DNC emails clearly demonstrate that the Democratic primary election in 2016 was STOLEN.
Pretending that somehow, the content of those emails become false because of who might have leaked them is conspiracy theory, while the story of Rather you've outlined is based in fact. What am I missing?
As lotlizard commented just above you, it is a matter of
distracting attention from the facts to the perception of those facts (operational truth). Sure the DNC is engaging in CT, but as at GOS, they get to say what is "fact" and what is CT because they're large and in charge. I'm not going to look, but there are likely diaries over at GOS talking about how Russia is subverting our electoral process and no one who writes them or agrees will be banned. So is it with the DNC and the MSM.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
Right, I get that. The point I'm making is
nobody gets to dress up bullshit and call it fact, unless we let them do it without calling them on it! We're LETTING them distract us. We are letting them foist their
operational truthbullshit on us.(The exception there is GOS. I don't give a damn what they have to say, but I digress)
Bear with me here, this goes somewhere
We face grave danger in deciding that "oh, The Media is going to get their way because....". To me, that absolves them. And we can't let this be absolved on any level. What must happen is that we must not accept their glossing over of outright election fraud, period, we must start pushing back bigger and louder and harder.
It is not going to be easy. We may be pissing in the wind upstream. But we must still continue to try, with as much repetition as we can muster up, even though it seems hopeless. We must stop reinforcing "No We Can't", in as many ways as possible.
Back then, the country seemed to collectively roll over and accepted the Rather thing--and my recollection is that would have been easy, since most of the knowledge came *after the fact*. OTOH, we were all watching the vote rigging in real time, and then the media dropped it. The media "reaction", if you will, is similar, but that's as far as it goes. We know exactly what happened here, now, when it happened and where it happened as well. So why would we accept this at face value?
I know this might not have occurred to anyone else to date; and please understand, all of this is not a criticism of either of your posts, by any means--but I see a danger in trying to find something in our past that compares the reactions it got to the reaction to this blatant vote rigging today is getting. It is not even close to being the same thing, in terms of the actual actions taken, IMO. In 2004, this nation was still in collective shock from 9/11 and our subsequent "warring". It's been 12 years since then--we have to stop accepting their demonstrable lies about the election the DNC stole from us. We are not at war with Russia right now. According to Obama, things are just peachy fucking swell. So why would we give the appearance of giving up?
We may never be "louder" than them, but if we don't even try, if we give up? Nobody will hear us, ever.
The first step to solving or fighting a problem is
to identify it. Now that we are well aware of the distraction, the "operational truth," we can call it out.
We know that switching the presidency from the DNC to the RNC doesn't matter when either way the 1% screws over the 99%. That's why we're not going to let fear and intimidation drag us into the same old same old.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
But if Netanyahu has a bone to pick, House & Senate come running
to hear him speak against the U.S. president — their own country’s president — in a special joint session of Congress !
You can’t. Make. This. Stuff. Up.
The mind boggles.
Please WikiLeaks dump the Clinton Foundation emails.
There's not enough squirrels in the world to distract from that. #JillNotHill
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK | "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine." - G. B. Shaw Bernie/Tulsi 2020
Don't count on that.
Look at what they just pulled off in plain view. When you own the media like the Clintons do, you are too big to fail and too big to jail.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I won't ever count on anything
but I would damn sure bet on this:
So what's Wikileaks waiting on now?
The Orwellian nature of the 'reporting' of this story
is breathtaking.
'Look, those Eurasians up to the their old tricks again.'
(Edited.)
Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.
Do you think Americans are actually that gullible?
The big bad Russian enemy-du-jour embarrassed the Democratic Party. Haha. As if the Russians gave a shit about America's fake democracy.
This manufactured distraction has the same amateurish smell as the Dem Party operatives planting the rumor that Bernie is an atheist.
Yes, I do think a large proportion of Americans
are that gullible. That the 'story' is the messenger, not the message.
Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.
I don't.
The "mainstream" American medium is held in almost as little regard as Congress.
Stay tuned. I don't think everybody's rolling over and yawning just yet...
My husband was falling for it until I showed him the
NYT story about the uranium deal involving the Clinton Foundation and Russia. He's got his skepticism back now.
My husband is a retired Army officer who was stationed in Germany in the mid to late '70s defending Europe from a possible Russian invasion. The conditioning is there, but I was able to talk him down (or is it read him down?).
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
Yes. Absolutely. Without a
Yes. Absolutely. Without a shred of doubt. Many Americans are indeed that gullible. And they will be joined by the paid shills, the straw-grasping loyalists, and the people who care so little about politics that all they know is whatever they overhear from the corporate media.
It must depend on where you are in the country
or something. I'm not seeing it from here. I see a lot of pushback and we need that to continue.
We cannot give up on this, people. Keep making noise!
Sounds like a bubble to me.
Sounds like a bubble to me.
What does that even mean?
Please clarify the remark--thanks!
I'm saying that what you're
I'm saying that what you're "seeing from here" probably represents your social/news bubble more than it represents the general American public.
And you would be completely wrong about that
When I say "seeing from here", I'm talking about that physical part of the United States in which I happen to live.
But you know what they say about "people who assume" things like you just did...perhaps it might be helpful if you read the whole thread?
Foreign influence on the democratic process?
Hillary is the world's champion on this. She and Victoria Nuland spent $5Bliion to overthrow the democratically elected government of the Ukraine. They couldn't even wait until the next election cycle.
Her State Department spends billions and billions on NGOs everywhere in the world to influence, if not overthrow governments. Many target counties have gotten wise to this ruse and are restricting externally financed NGOs.
I find it incredibly amusing that so many Dem personalities have jumped on the "Russia did it" bandwagon. They look like fools because A-Russia didn't do it (Assange said as much), and B-It's a blatant attempt to excuse the Fascist nature of the Democrat Party, that is, the content is the same whether revealed by Obama or the Chinese.
The Dems that I used to respect are constantly revealing themselves as self-serving, lying idiots. This has been quite a wake-up.
Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.
Obama will be the first president to keep the USA at war through
both his terms.
That's quite an accomplishment for a candidate who presented himself as the anti-war choice.
Obama's legacy: Returning the Democratic Party to its place as the country's premier imperialistic party.
"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"
Speaking of total disconnect
There is a diary on LOF that says that the democrats became the party of security patriotism, optimism without becoming republicans.
It doesn't? I beg to differ. Obama starting using drones in 7 countries within 9 days of becoming president which I believe is a war crime when another country attacks another one that hasn't threatened it.
Or destroyed Libya and Syria and overthrew 2 elected governments in Hondorus and Ukraine.
These people are living in a reality of the own making. The are making shit up to fit their own narrative.
What the hell does that mean? Good lord, the democrats voted with the republicans to continue to fund the wars in the Middle East, and this diarist is trying to say that the democrats are the good guys?
There is a quote from a general that says that he trusts in Hillary
Yeah, having a person from the military trust in Hillary to be a strong leader against the forces of darkness, ect sounds to me that they are trusting her to continue the wars.
And maybe those forces of hatred, chaos and darkness wouldn't be fighting against the US if it stayed out of their fucking countries.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt
ZOMG How Dare Russia Do What the US does!!?!?!?!?!?!!
They're seen as liars
and we need to continue to push on that. Because it's true. They ARE liars. Blatant liars.
The Nobel Peace Prize
has certainly lost its' cache.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
It lost it when they gave it to Kissinger
and has only sporadically and coincidentally been worth anything since.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Then there's this:
Will Preemptive Accusations Against Russia Cover Up Voting Fraud ?
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
I'm picking but I really wish people wouldn't say voting fraud
It's election fraud, not voting or voter fraud...
I feel like this confuses the issue.... This isn't directed at you Azazello, just bitching about something I see way too often.
Pick away! I'm with you. Confusing the terms confuses
the issue and allows BS assertions.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
We can bet there is a reason too devious to divine.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Russia is not just any scapegoat.
NATO forces are gathering in huge, threatening numbers at Russia's boarders. This in and of itself is an act of aggression by the obama/hillary war hawks. Time to spread false propaganda about Putin to prepare the american sheeple for war. The problem is, war with Russia is not endless war. More like final war.
okforahuman
Give me a break
We and the Russians/Soviets have been f'g with each other since Yalta.
Try reading some Le Carré . Tinker, Taylor, a good place to start.
Wake up. It's the "Great Game".
Here, let me help
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game
Prof: Nancy! I’m going to Greece!
Nancy: And swim the English Channel?
Prof: No. No. To ancient Greece where burning Sapho stood beside the wine dark sea. Wa de do da! Nancy, I’ve invented a time machine!
Firesign Theater
Stop the War!
We don't want foreign interference?
Actually, I'd welcome me some UN election fraud investigators right about now.
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Me too, elenacarlena!
Your avatar always makes me smile.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
Good morning, Phoebe! We made it to the weekend.
No more conventions! Whoo hooo!
Heh, TYVM.
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