Some final thoughts

I joined here a couple of weeks ago -- after 10 often rough years on Daily Kos, and intense disappointment at just how off-putting that site had become. I tried to tamp down over-heated reactionaries and as a result, I endured accusations of being racist, anti-Arab colonial Zionist, pro-Arab anti-Semite, being a neo-con, a neo-lib, and a delusional free-stuff loving Clinton-hating sexist misogynist. But, I stuck with it, despite a meltdown or two banging out replies to people who had really crossed the lines of decency.

Then, the March 15 edict came down, and that site became unrecognizable. Despite some still really excellent content from front-page folks like Meteor Blades and Adam B, and community contributors like Tom P (with whom I shared the journey from supporting Edwards to being a devotee of the Sanders revolution), the site had become insanely hostile on both sides and it was impossible to have any dialogue with anyone. I began spending huge swaths of time away from the site -- like even a whole day or two, which, for me, was a huge swath of time.

Frankly, I was way too busy campaigning for Sanders to care, but did keep returning to try and fight the good fight there. But, I got a short-time out for accusing a new contributor of being a shill as he claimed to be a former Bernie supporter, but didn't start posting until he had fallen for Clinton. It was soon clear to me that I had been an asshole -- and I apologized when my privileges were restored. But, a few weeks later, I briefly questioned the bona fides of someone who purported to be a Bernie Sanders Nevada delegate who had written very critically of the behavior of Sanders' delegates (frankly, there was some deeply regrettable conduct) and praising the lady who ran the thing (ridiculous). Since it was his first diary, I challenged his contention that he was a long-time lurker and wondered about the reason for posting. When I say brief -- I mean one coment. But the guy responded to a number of people questioning his veracity to ask him anything. I wrote that i had been a poll-watcher in Nevada, and asked where he'd caucused. I was wondering if I'd be able to support his claim, if by any chance he was at a site I was at. Unlikely, but not impossible. Anyway, I was in Vegas, and he wrote that he was in a rural site. I had nothing to add so I left the discussion. Someone accused me of trying to doxx the guy - I didn't see that comment until I got a notice that I'd been suspended for three months. Again, I had been an asshole -- but, in my defense, it was tough weekend for lots of us -- but I didn't do what I had been accused of -- trying to elicit personally identifying information. My entreaties to have that suspension reconsidered were ignored. I took the hint that people like me weren't really wanted there, which I confrimed by watching the hateful anti-Sanders screeds drivel were up and down the Wreck List.

On the flip side of that coin, I was witnessing many of the Sanders supporters I'd worked with post all over Facebook what seemed to me to be delusional posts about plans to run as a independent, about pending indictments for Clinton, about vote-stealing, and other fantastical conspiracy talk that ignored the knowable facts before them. I was kinda desparate for measured, thoughtful discussion and planning for the future after this election. I didn't see any prospect of constructive dialogue in the Sanders Facebook groups. So, I thought I'd give this site a try.

With that in mind, I really want to thank you all for the 'welcome' I have received here. It has me really longing for that other site, and anxious for my 3 month time out to end.

People who don't know me and know nothing about my offline existence keep challenging things I say about my personal life. In addition, when I post a comment or an essay, I'm regularly accused of being a shill or a troll.

What am I guilty of? Well, despite working my ass to try and win votes for Bernie Sanders, without any pay (and actually at considerable personal investment of time and money), and being chosen as a delegate to represent the people in my district who voted for Sanders, I have tried to argue what Bernie has been saying all along -- that, to have a chance at winning or even just changing the debate, progressives have to run in the party, not out of it. Also, I've echoed Sanders' pledge that we must defeat Donald Trump and the GOP. Finally, today, I was guilty of writing that President Obama made a powerful statement today.

I plead guilty to having written all those things. Proudly so. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but respecting my right to express my views is something I do expect. Even those who seem to defend my right to express my views criticize me for "telling people what to think." Apparently, I'm also guilty of not signalling that I'm just expressing my opinion -- admittedly espressed in earnest terms because I'm really worried about what happens if we see a repeat of 2000 (and, frankly, because I think it will also piss away a real chance to change the aprty and its policies in years to come). Not that I've seen anyone do that. It's normally understood that is what we're doing, but I guess if you write something that is at odds with the majoritarian consensus here, you're guilty of telling people what to think. Of course I am. That's the point. I see tremendous opportunity in the years ahead, but it requires working with people who remain in the party. So, I am, in fact, trying to change the thinking of people who claim to be determined to walk away from the party and never come back. I am not telling anyone off -- rather, I am urging them to stay open to continuing the effort that Sanders has begun within the party. But, I am certainly being told off.

There's nothing more dangerous than those in politics who close themselves off to opposing views and who demonize those who express them.

Even if the people who do that happen to right on the issues (and being as closed off as all that, they don't even accept being tested on that), not being open to working with others is antithetical to democracy.

Saying you're the real democratic folks doesn't make it so. It just sounds like you're interested in majoritarianism but only if you get to be the majority. That ain't a commitment to democracy, which is an ongoing process -- and a work in progress.

I certainly didn't get everything I wanted out of this race -- but it has opened my eyes both to the possibilities and to the hard work that needs to be done in the months and years to come. One problem I have with busters is that not only are they going on about how they want to carve themselves off from the body politic, every sign I see is that they will not get off ther devices long enough to do the unprecedented legwork needed in creating a viable 3rd Party. They'll sit at their screens and cheer if it materializes, but democracy doesn't happen that way. What I find ironic about that is that it seems to me patently obvious that it will be far easier to take control of the Democratic Party. Yeah, we came up short, but we came amazingly close. Trying to win elections from outside this party (and there's not much point in electing an independent Presidential candidate who doesn't have a constituency and allies in the legislature) will be much harder. That's the reason Sanders decided to run in the party.

We threw our weight behind Sanders, and we did magnificently. Far better than we had a right to expect. We have changed the dialogue on issues AND process. Whether you believe it or not, all the evidence is that even a lot of Beltway insiders are cheered by that. They may claim to be pragmatic about what they can get done, but most of them got into politics hoping to get a lot more done. More to the point, regardless of what happens inside the Beltway bubble, there were a lot of Clinton supporters who want action on climate change, campaign finance, economic inequality, social and racial justice. For whatever reasons -- and they probably varied from voter to voter -- they chose to support Clinton, but that doesn't change their support for the same issues we're concerned about. Now, we have a choice. To my mind, the choice that's emerging can be expressed thusly: We can sit it out, wait and hope that eventually a majority finds its way to people who have wilfully given the finger to the process now; or we can continue participate in the process as we did over the last year, working with others and recruiting allies among those who want our support.

I believe in that. I believe in the Sanders effort -- both in terms of changing the process and absolutely about changing policy.

However, I have no desire to participate in a site where the commenters persist in accusing me of lying about my role in the campaign and calling me a troll. You don't want me here? Congratulations. The Bolsheviks have suppressed another dissenting view, and you didn't need a gulag to do it. Of course, you'll scorn what I've written and make fun of the Bolshevik reference. More's the pity, because either you don't see where you're headed, or you don't see the problem there. I may be wrong about a lot of things, but at least, I know I'm not an asshole, and I refuse to let myself become one.

---------------------------------- Update -----------------------------

I appreciate the comments from those who are saying the behavior I've witnessed is not at all representative of the site. I particularly want to note some comments that have laid out some crucial information about the membership here, which I have misjudged and probably approached in the wrong way. So, please accept my apologies for that. It probably stocked off some of the hostility I've encountered, so I deserve a lump or two. Thanks all. Still not sure if this is my new home, but I'll poke around some to grok y'all before I make any more misguided assumptions.

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Comments

the accusations of FischFry being a troll were pushed back on strongly today by the moderating team, we wish that no one be called a troll here unless of course it is a case of obvious trolling. That designation did not or does not apply to FischFry.

With that said I hope that anyone that comments on this essay does so civilly or not at all.

JtC

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thanatokephaloides's picture

the accusations of FischFry being a troll were pushed back on strongly today by the moderating team, we wish that no one be called a troll here unless of course it is a case of obvious trolling. That designation did not or does not apply to FischFry.

THAT!!

FischFry, kindly please do those of us who never acted nor intended any harm or offense to you hereabouts a favor, and remain among us. Sometimes communications just "go south" in some of the nastiest ways. I've learned since the ancient FidoNet days that it's an occupational hazard of blogging, and why it is that Moderation is necessary.

Thank you for your kind consideration!

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

JekyllnHyde's picture

That designation did not or does not apply to FischFry.

Many of us have known FischFry and interacted with him on DK for a very long time.

I'm no expert on online behavior, but I did write this many years ago and with a few edits, it's worth sharing on this blog.

JekyllnHyde's Ten "Do's and Don'ts" of Blogging

  • Do remember there is a live human being at the other end of the blog exchange. One who is sensitive, has emotions, and may not react well to constant criticism. Some of us often lose sight of that fact.
  • Don't belittle or disparage anyone in your comments nor hold personal grudges. Even if you had an unpleasant exchange, try to forget it by the next day. Move on.
  • Do have a high level of tolerance for dissenting viewpoints. You aren't the repository of all knowledge and wisdom.
  • Don't expect others to support your blogging efforts if you don't bother to reciprocate.
  • Do try to visit all kinds of diaries and, in particular, support the community diaries. It will strengthen your ties with others.
  • Don't express the first thought that crosses your mind, particularly when responding to an inflammatory posting. Take a deep breath before you do. Sometimes, just as in real life, reticence is a desirable trait.
  • Do rely upon humor to diffuse a thorny situation and gently disarm someone. Even if you disagree with them, walk away after the second or third exchange. Beyond that point, the conversation will usually deteriorate. Simply learn to walk away and don't insist upon having the last word. And, don't worry if you're on the losing end of an argument. In professional baseball, for example, the best hitters fail seven out of ten times and still have a chance to make it to the Hall of Fame.
  • Don't write anything that you wouldn't say to a person's face. This approach will help you restrain yourself.
  • Do recommend generously. Others also put in a great deal of effort in writing diaries and comments. It isn't all about you.
  • Don't ever call anyone a troll unless their behavior is very disruptive or egregious such as making racist, bigoted, or homophobic comments. Accusing others of trolling isn't about making you feel all-powerful.
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A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma

2 sites have not always welcomed you, and hope you will find someplace(s) that will.
In the future, after you have been appropriately chastised by Kos, I hope you will find a way of freely expressing yourself there, as that place is important to you.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Bollox Ref's picture

The health of the Democratic Party is not first and foremost.

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Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

More and better progressives.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

Shahryar's picture

hard to tell because the comment seems to be gone but it got an immediate negative response.

Did I miss other comments?

In any case, if your opinion is in the minority here it only means more people disagree with you than agree. And that's going to be the case in any discussion. If there's a spectrum of opinion than of course some opinions will fall on the minority side. That's how it works. It's not a bad thing.

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I wouldn't have bothered challenging anyone.

I didn't see the comments on my 'essay' I posted earlier today until hours later. There are a number of comments that have been moderated into oblivion. I'd say it's all because I supported the President arguing for a sane response that doesn't declare holy war -- but it goes deeper than that. As I wrote, I've been called a liar a number of times in the two (maybe it's threem but I think it's just two) , with numerous mocking comments about 1) being a Sanders delegate 2) having been a poll-watcher in Nevada on caucus day for the campaign 3) being a Sanders supporter now or ever, and even 4) having a degree in, experience in and knowing something about international law.

I don't care if its one person or twenty -- although the comments accusing me of lying or being a troll get more upvotes than most of my posts. Not only is this not fun and not productive, it's misery. In the words of fellow Sanders supporter Danny Glover: "I'm getting too old for this shit." I certainly don't need it. So, bless you for trying, but I ain't fighting that battle. That's not about disagreeing. That's just being a dick. And, I don't need that grief. Good luck to you all.

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Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.

that called you a troll left in a huff after being called out for it. They then proceeded to go through most of their comments here and redacted them, I guess in an attempt to delete their account. That's why the comment thread appears to be a mess.

So please don't paint us as being totally unfair to you.

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I'll reconsider that. In the end, what I think doesn't matter, since I'm just one person. But, I'll withold judgment...not that my judgment matters, but because you asked, and that does matter.

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Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.

and hope you reconsider leaving. You and I bumped heads a few times, but it was never about substance, only the delivery.

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Cachola's picture

I did not participate. Damn! I wish I had so I could include myself among the Bolsheviks. I haven't been called a Bolshevik since I left Puerto Rico and I didn't realize I missed it.

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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

because unpleasant and untrue things were said about you while asking Sanders supporters to stay in a party which said some unpleasant and untrue things about Sanders and his supporters? I'm not sure how your actions advance your argument. I also don't think now is the best time to present such an argument.

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He's talking of big plans to change it, make it more responsive to the voters it's supposed to be representing.

So it's probably not out of line for a Dem Sanders supporter to appeal to others to remain in the Party.

Sorry, I missed all the drama, but FischFry has been in political fora for many years, I've always deemed him trustworthy.

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"If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, take their money and then vote against them you've got no business being in Congress."

BSanders2016's picture

Bernie will be changing his affiliation back to Independent after the convention because he is. I will as well.

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"YOU must be the change you wish to see in the world." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

What are Dem Bernie Supporters being asked to support?

Drama is a dismissive term, like right wing attack, and you're better than that based upon your history including DK. If you're busy, it's understandable. If you want to stay with the meaningless drama theme, don't bother and rest yourself.

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In fact, someone else addressed a comment to me saying it's not a good time to have these discussion because everyone is so raw. I agreed. It's atough time for me, nad probably accounts for how strongly I've been advocating in the other direction. So I wrote as responese agreeing and added that I hope the "Months ahead will allow time for reasonable reflection." YOu should have seen what that touched off. SOme F-bombs, and then when I said I was very much including myself in that -- that there was nothing personal -- I was accused of lying. So, I forgot to include that in the litany of htings I've been accused of lying about in my very brief time on this site.

I am very much used to insults on the internet -- attacks about my intentions or meaning. As I wrote in the diary, I've been called racist -- or saying things that are racist -- any number of times on the GOS -- it seems it happens every time I point out that the facts of a situation are or may not be as they're being protrayed in a diary or comment. And, then, when I see things the same way, I'm an ally again. I've been accused of being an Arab-hating Zionist (by people who think that's a dirty word) for defending soem things about Israel and also been called an anti-Semite for criticizing other things.

And, by the Clinton people? I've been called sexist repeatedly. Much more in the last 6 months than in the first 51 years of my life. In fact, ouside of Clinton supporters ('08 and '16), I'm not sure anyone's said I'm guilty of veing sexist. I'm not ruling it out, but I can't recall it. It's frustrating, especially because I know it's being used to dismiss us Sanders supporters, but I don't take that personally.

But, when you're called a liar, over and over again, there's no response. Especially when you're accused of lying about something personal. because the perople doing that don't know and don't care about the truth. They're only interested in attacking. If that shit stops, I might reconsider whether there's any reason to continue here. Thank you for your two cents.

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Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.

If you have a commercial interest in your reputation, I could see how being called a liar is a matter of concern via perception management. Otherwise, it's just the nature of the Internet. I've been called worse, by people who love me, and I'm still standing.

I've been called all sorts of things. Back in the early 2000s, anyone opposing Bush was a traitor to America. So I don't sympathize with the name calling nor do I give it credit. That's just politics and an attempt to exploit prejudices within the masses who don't have the opportunity to learn about their scumbag rulers because they're working themselves to death for ... nothing because that is fiat currency.

Your argument has some merit, but you have no idea how to implement it and we're most likely talking decades assuming your premise is true. That's like the best I can do and I'm not sure you even understand the problem domain. Without any kind of real short-term return, you're a Hillary shill. I won't go into the immediate short-term needs of society that should be addressed NOW!

You're not a leader or a voice of reason. A leader wouldn't whine about how they are being attacked, they would expect it. You're someone who has invested a great deal in your opinion regardless of how it effects others. You don't even care to know your audience, as has been noted before.

I don't care if you leave or not. I don't care about your reputation which is currency for scoundrels. The only thing that matters is you present an honest, supported argument even if I may disagree. You've presented one. The other crap you're whining about doesn't help you especially considering what Bernie went through.

The truth is you have a decent message, which you might not be able to deliver on. But as you are now, as your approach is now, you're the wrong messenger. So, you either find out how to be the right messenger or what happens happens. You have a message delivery problem.

YMMV, but that's just my opinion which ... means nothing.

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CS in AZ's picture

let me just say that I'm also new here, having arrived as part of the Great Migration of March 2016, and I really enjoy this site and don't miss the Daily Orange at all. This place is different, and it's growing and changing a lot recently too. I don't have a lot of time to spend online these days, but when I visit here I read what I can and find it quite interesting.

I hadn't seen or noticed any of your previous essays so after reading this I did go and read your other two posts and scanned some of your conversations to see what you were referring to, because I've found people here generally pretty friendly but I have noticed the heat getting turned up recently, more heated arguments than it had when I got here; to be expected I suppose with the explosive growth. The moderators are doing a great job of trying to keep it on track.

They did step in and stop the person who called you a troll, and those comments have been deleted. Yes, you did get a lot of push back and strong disagreement as well, but nothing that seemed out of line or unexpected here. I also noticed a lot of your comments were pretty rude, calling other's people's views "nonsense" for example. You might consider your own role in the interactions, especially if you are seeing a repeated pattern. In reading your first post, I saw right at the beginning the root cause of your troubles:

I have no clue what the audience is

I have been here a couple of months now, and I am still doing far more reading than writing or commenting. I like to write, and to discuss things in an open way -- but it is vital to know the audience and the community first, if you care about things like sticking around, building a following of readers or a respectful audience for your work, or being part of any online community that you would like to participate in.

This is not a Dem party site. The audience here, overall, is not friendly to or supportive of, in general, President Obama, Hillary Clinton, or the Democratic party. There is a split between how people are feeling about Bernie Sanders. He has many supporters here, but he is also subject to criticism and not everyone supports his campaign. Some folks are quite annoyed that Kos's edict caused a flood of Berniacs to join up here, and feel it has ruined the former nonpartisan focus on issues. People are vocal about these things. It was their site long before you parachuted in seeking refuge. You were welcomed by a lot of people in your essays, even as you got pushback. This site very well may not be a good fit for you, and that's fine, I wish you good luck in finding a platform that works for you. But I do think it would help if you take some time to consider how you approach your writing and discussions. The reactions you get don't happen in a vacuum.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

I suppose I haven't read enough diaries here. If people aren't for Bernie and they're not for the Dem Party, can you help some of us understand who or what the founders of this site support?

Not being confrontational, just genuinely curious.

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"If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, take their money and then vote against them you've got no business being in Congress."

I know, I know, overly general, but that's what we are about. There are 99percenters in all parties.

Most folks here are Bernie supporters, including myself, but officially we are not affiliated with or beholding to any Party. We lean left but are non partisan.

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I think all of us are accustomed to differences of opinion within the ranks of progressives/liberals.

It's just a strange situation. TOP is off the rails, most of us are recovering from that abusive relationship. People over at KFS on reddit are praising Bev Harris and BB Voting and quoting Breitbart, and C99 is getting mad a Bernie supporters. It's confusing as heck.

Maybe I'll stick with Progressive Wing and Bernie's site for now. There's a lot going on, we're holding meetings here in our area.

Love you all, will drop by to read now and then.

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"If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, take their money and then vote against them you've got no business being in Congress."

and C99 is getting mad a Bernie supporters.

Some members may be but c99p is not mad at Bernie supporters.

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angel d's picture

In fact just today we've had a long discussion on the various discredited news sources now that the main stream corporate media has been revealed as being nothing but the 1%ers mouthpiece.

Our subreddit had over two million unique views last month, and we have grown exponentially. It's fast moving, not quite as fast as Twitter, but there's plenty of discussion.

I am not writing to change your mind, Betty, I just don't want others here to form a bad opinion of our beloved K4S subreddit.

There is a place or places for all DK refugees, and a good fit for you might not be a good fit for me. Please be kind to our subreddit, we are learning how to interact without self censorship and we get a little out tbere, but we're coming back from that heady sense of freedom.

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mahakali overdrive's picture

I think that conversation was amazing and very productive. My hope was to find consensus throgh dialogue, and as a group, that happened beautifully. Our sub will not be for everyone -- what is? -- but we are a loving snd fierce community with intense convictions and intense respect for each other given our differences, size, and duration. I am so glad to have gotten to know you there too. And we are not done by a long shot. We are no one trick pony; I will have a revolution even if it is me, myself, and I occupying my mind, my heart, my convictions. Happily, it is not. We, and I include C99 here, are pushing for change, many of us, and in many different ways too, which is excellent IMHO. I want us to think as expansively as is possible in whatever directions our mind goes, coalesce organically where fitting, and make whatever dents we can on this old tin can we call American politics. Others may prefer something else. But we have so much in the works... just a bit stranded when stuck in Stockholm with my whole family in a one room apartment and no computer. Still, we can affirm our commitments to dream and even work together; my Marxist hems are showing...

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“It is not the slumber of reason that engenders monsters, but vigilant and insomniac rationality.” -- Gilles Deleuze

angel d's picture

The LOVE is what binds us.

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Shahryar's picture

I support Bernie although I don't love his foreign policy. Others are for Bernie all the way. Some think that the Democratic Party is so corrupt that the best thing would be for it to fall apart. A few intend to vote for Hillary if she's the nominee. Opinions are all over the place, which is fine.

But the main concept of the site, as the name implies, has been to support the 99%.

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CS in AZ's picture

and I don't think I'm qualified to speak on their behalf about that. Like I said, I'm a newbie, still mostly reading and taking things in, trying to learn who is here and what they are about. It's easier to figure out what doesn't fly here than where it's going.

My impression -- and I hope they will correct anything I get wrong -- is they want a nonpartisan site that is focused on issues more than electoral politics. This doesn't mean they don't want political discussions. Bernie supports who come here seeking refuge have been given space to use the site to discuss and share information, and have been warmly welcomed here, as long as they accept that not everyone agrees and will speak their mind!

As for Hillary and Obama other neoliberal, establishment Dems... meh. No one says their supporters can't post here, but like FischFry has learned, they are not popular, to say the least. They will be called out, and no holds barred. So posting any kind of advocacy for them would not be banned, but the writer should expect strong pushback and vocal disagreement.

I believe JtC has posted about their goals to have a nonpartisan site that is about discussing issues over politicians, in a nutshell.

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I'm just kind of surprised that someone was attacked for supporting Sanders. I don't like Obama or Hillary, so I'm not sure who else there is to support. I'm half way out the door from being a lifelong Democrat, but I need some direction. I suppose that's because I'm an activist, always seeking some common ground on agenda and direction.

It's ok. I just don't want to get attacked for supporting Sanders. I've had enough of that at TOP/GOS.

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"If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, take their money and then vote against them you've got no business being in Congress."

CS in AZ's picture

At least, not that I know of, although of course some people may perceive an attack in some of the criticisms that are voiced. And no one can guarantee that someone won't attack and lash out, but they are dealt with if that happens. There are pro-Bernie posts on the front page here, and like I said, we (his supporters fleeing GOS after the edict, and in general) have been made welcome here. Even though some long time members don't hesitate to express their distaste for this new focus of many of the posts and discussions. Is that an "attack" ... not to me, but some might take it that way. For me it's more about being respectful to the long time members and how they have had to quickly adapt to and make room for an influx of new people with a very different focus than they were used to.

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very perceptive CS, I'm impressed. And spot on.

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CS in AZ's picture

I'm still trying to get a handle on this place, so it's good to know I'm on the right track. Thank you again, so very much, for creating this place for me and so many others to land.

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I'm sorry to have been part of the influx here that has upset some folks. Not really sure what I'm supposed to be apologizing for, but somehow I feel like I must.

I do understand. Sorry to invade your space and pardon the intrusion.

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"If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, take their money and then vote against them you've got no business being in Congress."

TrueBlueinWDC's picture

A bunch of the folks active here are Bernie supporters, so you're in good company. Sometimes people pine for the days when the discussions weren't all about Bernie or the upcoming election. But, it is an election year. What do you do? Smile

Most of us are here as part of a migration from DKos, some just got here sooner. And some, like Joe S and JtC were here first. Please don't feel like you're intruding.

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"Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change." Stephen Hawking

NEW: http://www.twitter.com/trueblueinwdc

Shahryar's picture

it's a pretty friendly place.

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enhydra lutris's picture

persons and discussions are welcome here. People can discuss and brainstorm campaign strategies for Bernie, the Dems, a Bernie Centered 3rd party, The Green Party, the creation of a new 3rd party, etc. The point is that the site itself will never be a partisan site in support of any party the way that Daily Kos is a Democratic site. Hell, it isn't that likely that this site will ever be all in behind electoral politics, let alone a specific party or candidate. Hang around and check out some of the essays on what the place is and is about. Keep in mind that this or that party might not be around in a decade or so, but climate problems and wars almost certainly will.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

shaharazade's picture

you posting here Betty. At dkos you were one of my favorite posters. You haven't invaded or intruded this site. It's a public site. It's just not a partisan site per say. Democrat's are welcome here but so are all people who are interested the plight of the 99% both here and globally. We are run the gamut as far as 'ideology' goes agnostics, indies, green, anarchists, socialists, ideological purists and maybe even some Bolsheviks.

I hope you do not feel you have to be this or that to participate. Speaking for myself it's been good to look beyond the binary confines of D vs. R and read and discuss issues that are political, cultural, global and historical and not limited to the story line put out by the 1%'s propaganda arm the media or the establishment duopoly. This may not be where your interest lies but I hope you stick around. In times like these it's good for me to have a place where people are free to express themselves and share their knowledge and ideas outside the gates of dkos or any other partisan propaganda site.

I was a dkos for 10 long years and it feel good to be able to not have to self censor or confine my thoughts the fear and loathing of Republicans and be able to look at the world with other people who have the courage to try and look for other means to help the people both in and out of the false divides of fear. Perhaps if you read the Welcome New Users on the right sidebar and the FAQ it would help you see what cacucus99percent is striving to be. One thing I do feel is that it's not a alternative DK. as those of us who got on a lifeboat from there have found that there is a whole world that is not binary and based on fear and hate.

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I can understand your dilemma, as a life long Democrat it is not an easy decision to leave. It was easier for me when I realized they had left me and only wanted me for the work and money. The principles of the party were jettisoned for elected officials to secure their jobs and PAC contributions.

Considering Hillary as the lessor of two evils between herself and Trump is just part of the DNC boogeyman game. A game played by both parties that will lead to their demise. The use of a private e-mail server, an illegal act that would put any government employee in jail is the tip of the iceberg on a deceit laden career. A good leader would never put themselves above the law. If you want to avoid FOIA while you share info with Clinton Foundation you get a private server and ignore warnings from advisors. A party with a history of messy contested primary elections that clears the decks of all other candidates is only interested in perceived fund raising benefits. Catering to private interest in closed door speeches while leading the party in a conservative direction for 25 years is not a positive sign. The lessor of two evils is this election is purging the Clinton's from the political scene. The DNC has made their fateful decision to cast their lot with HRC. As a result I will leave and vote Bernie or Jill, I encourage anyone who places a value in their conviction of transparent government that stands up for those who need a voice at the table to do the same.
This is a principle of the 99 percent.

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It's been coming a long time, the separation from the Party. But then where do you take the next step? I'm not one to wait for the next thing to happen. Congress is still passing bad laws and ignoring good policy. Things are getting harder for people every day, problems getting worse in the economy, access to health care, mental illness, civil rights, etc. Not everyone is cut out to be a bystander, I feel like I have to keep moving forward, trying to work for change. It's just a matter of finding out where and how to best do that.

I can no longer count on my Congressperson, my senator, local elected officials, no one. It's an odd feeling to have Dems representing me, who I helped put in office who are no longer looking out for my interests or that of my family and community. You can't create change without having someone in government to work with. So Bernie it is. If fellow travelers don't like that, I can't help them, but there's no justification for attacking someone who is supporting a good leader. And, for now, I've had enough of being attacked for supporting Sanders.

Thanks for understanding. If you have a better alternative than Bernie, I'm open to suggestions.

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"If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, take their money and then vote against them you've got no business being in Congress."

Most plan to wait for Bernie. We trust him, and we aren't done supporting him yet.

The site has the platform JtC and others described. Unlike dkos, we are free to to discuss anything because the 99% is pretty vast and far reaching. We are a progressive site and some would say far left leaning.
If you are new, reading through the welcome new user link is helpful. The admin and moderators, plus LiberalinMD created this site to escape from top and in anticipation of the great migration. As opposed to intruding, it was built to be a safe haven for people like you and us. The ugly at dkos was anticipated and prepared for. It is difficult to be criticized by people who don't even know us. We are the same people you knew at dkos only now we don't have to toe the party line.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Bulldawg's picture

I had left the Democratic Party over at GOS, and was immediatly attacked as being a defacto Trump supporter! They have totally lost it.

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“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck

Unabashed Liberal's picture

no one is attacking Sanders' supporters. I hope that isn't your takeaway from this discussion. It would be an incorrect one.

You mention that you are "half way out the door from being a lifelong Democrat," and that's fine.

But, there are some of us--I left the Dem Party in 2004, just days before I joined TOP, after the Dem Party Leadership/Elites scr*wed over Howard Dean--who are no longer affiliated with the Dem Party; and, we are equally deserving of respect when we state our views.

IOW, we're inclusive, here. One is not required to pledge loyalty to the Dem Party, or any Party, for that matter.

(BTW, I voted for Bernie in the Dem Party Primary, and contributed to his campaign.)

We are also free to state that we will vote Third Party--a view which cannot be uttered at TOP, as you know.

Hey, good to see you here!

Mollie


"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."--Will Rogers
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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

I completely understand people who felt the need to leave the Dem Party. They're the last people I would attack. As I said in my post above, I'm just out of patience right now with people who are intolerant of Bernie supporters. Have had enough of that for a while.

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"If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, take their money and then vote against them you've got no business being in Congress."

intolerant of Bernie supporters? I obviously haven't read every word on this site, but from what I've seen, the majority of people on this site support Bernie.

I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong.

I'm a lifelong Democrat and that will end the day after the convention. I already downloaded the forms to fill out.

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I'm waiting to see what happens with Bernie. He says he wants to change the dem party, I'm not sure why he feels the need to do this from inside of the party, but I have time to wait and see. It is all so up in the air.

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'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "

snoopydawg's picture

You would need to read his diary and what was said about Obama that got so many people riled up.
It was about Obama's speech on the Orlando shooting and how both he and Hillary tied it into the greater war against ISIL.
IMO, the shooting had nothing to do with them or terrorism. It was about a guy full of self loathing because he may have been gay himself.
But the two of them want to expand the shooting into more reasons to continue the war of terror and none of that should have been said while speaking about Orlando.
That's my take on events that happened today.

And there are a lot of Bernie supporters here, so I hope you stick around or look back at previous essays and see what this site is about.
My favorite part of the site is the Evening Blues where joe brings us a lot of articles that we may have missed. And those are the types of topics we used to find on DK before it became Hillary central and anyone who didn't agree with the Prime Directive either got banned or left.
Many of us left over a year ago before the election even started, IIRC.
The members who created this site wanted to create a site that represents the 99%.
So please stay and see what this site offers. I think you will like it.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

But, thanks.

And, yes, I'm sick of Obama and Hillary, too.

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"If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, take their money and then vote against them you've got no business being in Congress."

riverlover's picture

(and it's good to see your keyboarding ? over here). This site is not that political, much more going on about how to exist and stay happy and support others in their quest to be satisfied with their life. Spread the joy, albeit thinly, not a shmear. Talk about improvement on our lives, neighborhoods, locales, bigger. Somewhat more forward-looking than classic DK.

All of us have had a bad week. And things politically are in full-swirl mode. a la toilet. So we hang on to the rim, or swim.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

elenacarlena's picture

"Nobody should refuse to support Sanders!!"

"Here's why I still support Sanders."

Same support, totally different vibe.

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inseparable, unless the goal is a more academic level discussion of the details around issues.

It is possible to have a purely fact-based discussion of issues without involving politics at all (except where necessary or appropriate, e.g. to point out a fact about a politician's actions or comments on an issue), but that's going to be some dry stuff. It's also, in my not so humble opinion, prone to subconscious bias in addition to being somewhat less than useful from an activism viewpoint.

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elenacarlena's picture

to be. I support Bernie and would like to support the Dem party (getting difficult, tho). But issues first. I support Bern and some Dems because we are on the same side on the issues. Were they to compromise their principles, I would drop my support if someone better came along.

Given that different people have different priorities, of course we're going to argue. But I think in most cases we can agree to disagree. A hearty discussion is educational. It's why I'm here a lot more than TOP - an echo chamber is boring and doesn't teach me anything new.

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gulfgal98's picture

because I have been and still am traveling. But I am one of the founding members here. This site has existed for over two years in various forms (such as a google group) with it being in this form and location for a year and a half. One of our main purposes in developing this site was to provide a place where issues and policies could be discussed from a liberal perspective without the burdens of being attached to any political party.

While many of us here support Bernie Sanders because of his policy stances, we are not a Bernie Sanders political site, nor a site to promote the Democratic party. Individual members here may choose to do so, but the overall goal of this site has been from the beginning to support policies and actions that benefit 99% of the people.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Given the name of the site, I had assumed it was basically a Berniacs site, but I forget that Occupy began the discussion about the 1%.

Thank you for your perspective.

As for using words like "nonsense," I would say that's just rhetoric -- basic debate tactic -- but given the Occupy anti-hierarchical consensus ethic, maybe that is taken very differently here. Thanks for the insight.

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Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.

riverlover's picture

and use of words like nonsense or anything else that belittles the opponent. Opponent is the first step to division, a tactic of the 1% to divide and conquer.

We are a bunch of people, sitting around a campfire talking. Face to face (metaphorically) even though the fire flames may be between our faces. Wolves and other things skulk outside the light.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

But, if you make inaccurate statements, which you have. you should expect to be corrected.
Opinions are not facts, and this election is too important to let the inaccuracies stand.
Your essays would have my respect, if not my support, if you put more integrity into your research before posting an essay. I know several people who think voting for hillary in the general is what democrats should do, but, they don't consider a correction of their facts as being demonizing. I'm sorry you do.

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'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "

then, you really are missing the "facts" that I referenced.

In point of fact, I haven't urged anyone to vote for Hillary -- I've been writing about progressives can build on what Sanders achieved -- and today, I also wrote approvingly of something the President did today. The demonizing hasn't been to challenge any 'facts' I may have offered -- though I'm not sure I have offered any factual statements other than a few about myself, for which I've been ccalled a liar. That's not correcting any inaccurate statements. That's just trolling me, even as they're accusing me of being a troll. But, if you read this essay with greater circumspection, I think you'd see that I'm not talking about anyone challenging my opinions. It's the repeated accusations that I'm lying (about things about me that no one else at the site could know if they're true) and that I'm smoe kind of a troll.

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Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.

Haikukitty's picture

I may be one of those people who expressed skepticism (I know I am, although I did it indirectly and didn't outright call you a liar).

I don't have much excuse, since I don't know you. I may have just misjudged your comments. It seemed to reflect a pattern of behavior where a commenter has been everywhere and seen everything first-hand. I'm sorry I took your words as suspicious - I noticed you saying your were in Maryland (so am I - hi - I'm your asshole neighbor) and then saying you were in the Nevada caucus, and it seemed contradictory. So, I did express doubt.

I apologize for doing so - I should have kept my comments to the substance of your argument (or lack thereof as I may have thought) and not questioned personal statements.

It's been a bad week for me, things are getting under my skin. I think we're all a little on edge - but that doesn't excuse exhibiting bad behavior on my part.

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Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.

sojourns's picture

it is time to retire the word "troll". It has become trite and lost much of it's original meaning in terms of applicable internet usage. It has become silly.

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

TheOtherMaven's picture

but based on what I have read from both you and others, you needed (and maybe still need) more time to detox from the corrosive atmosphere of That Other Place. You approached this place as if it was DKos, or as hostile as DKos, and it didn't go over very well (nor was it likely to).

It takes time to get over the damage (as well I know), and the more deeply invested someone was Over There, the longer it is likely to take. I'm truly sorry that it is so, but I don't know what can be done about it.

Do what you gotta do, go where you gotta go, and maybe some day we can all try again (or not).

The only thing is, I wouldn't hold out much hope of That Other Place becoming what you want and need - IMHO the masks were slipping even before the Edict. (I bailed at the first warning, end of Feb or beginning of March, and it was already noxious then.)

Good luck to you.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

I believe I'm right where you are - Strongly critical of HRC, strongly supportive of Sanders, and because of those two stances I've gotten huge negative pushback on the two Dem sites (including Kos) I normally blog on. (as mj55- and my recent experience there mirrors a lot of other people's stories).

When I've written on this site that I will probably end up voting for Hillary as part of an electoral strategy, while continuing to support Bernie's democratization of the Democratic party as a political strategy, I've gotten a few critical comments, but haven't been called a troll yet, as far as I know.

On the conspiracy theories, I'm still waiting for hard evidence. I applaud the RICO lawsuits, and want the 2.4 million provisional ballots in CA to be counted. I want Bernie to go in to the convention strong and fierce.

Anyway, please don't leave, Fisch. You're a good writer and seem to be an evidence-based journalist, as well as a genuine grassroots activist. We need more of those.

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please remember they aren't speaking or the site.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Pluto's Republic's picture

…and "fascist" and "traitor" — in the discard bin of nonsense words. Neither the pitcher nor catcher of those arcane terms can possibly know their scattershot meaning. Such words are little more than fragments of sound, or grunts, like the word "communism."

I'm sure you are well aware that "troll" is currently defined as "somebody who is wrong on the Internet." It was once such a cool word, before the technosexuals discarded it for even cooler lingo. A long time ago.

Anyway, you're a well known and respected long-time blogger. Surely, that dumb term didn't trip you up.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

Anyone who calls you a troll or comes after you personally is in violation of the site's rules. That is what we have moderators for. If they go after your message and not you, it is fair game. People who want to pie fight, name call, and "call each other out as trolls and shills" need to stay at dailykos.

What I want to know is why are you painting this site with such a broadbrush? What is your message or ask besides someone at c99 wronged you, and c99 is closed minded and will mock you? Because a handful of people broke the rules and gave you a hard time, why is it c99's fault, my fault? I don't even know who the hell you are. Your opinion of busters is up to you, but don't expect some/many people here to agree with it, or the war, or Obama, or Hillary or party unity. If you think that makes me a political paperweight, I don't care. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.

Whatever your problem, good luck. Hope your three month time out hurries by so you can go back there and not have to put up with everyone here until the next time you get benched. No disrespect meant. If I am reading you wrong, I am willing to listen. If not, seriously, good luck at top.

Speaking generally and just for me, I am getting sick of the prima donnas. Somebody hurts their feelings, and they stomp off. Someone can't hurt someone else's feelings, and they stomp off. Someone says green sucks, and someone becomes mortally wounded and orders everyone to never say green again because A, B, or C. Johnny has busted his ass without compensation to help us have a nice home where we could all hang out and talk. The only thing that was asked in return was a donation of what people could afford to help defray costs and that we all just freaking be civil and respect one another in our discourse. Shame, shame, shame on c99.

@JtC If I did in this thread what you told us not to do, I am sorry. As Rodney King once said, "why can't we all just get along"?

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

for you dk.

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Damnit Janet's picture

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"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison

snoopydawg's picture

Well said m dk

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Pluto's Republic's picture

A handful of people spent a year or two building this site for YOU. Think of it as a space resort. The stated intention and concern was to provide a place for activists and supporters to regroup and make contact, just in case Markos or some other website owner lost their shit and jettisoned the passengers. It was designed as a safe place to regroup, find one another, and carry on. The Democratic had not split into two parties, yet.

Make no mistake, c99 is not a political substitute for Daily Kos or Democratic Underground, or any other website that gets too high on its own weed. Our Esteemed members choose to stay, and they are very welcome to explore their ideas and state them for others to read. But the founders of c99 have no hold on them and have no political sway over them. Everyone takes care of their own political business and any other personal business. The rest of the community's co-mingling activity is simply engaging, inspiring, and more often than not, artistic.

I'm not convinced that moderation is a good idea, actually. I can't say for sure which comes first: moderation or bad behavior. I do know, however, it always leads to self-censorship and fear.

So cut it out, people. ….Oh wait…. I was the first fuck-up, wasn't I?

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

to a site that had no moderation at all? It's not a pretty thing. Oh, wait a minute, I forgot who I was speaking to. Hehehe.

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Lisa Lockwood's picture

that place was interesting.
(Dammit, I liked Peeder, & some of us were playing well with others). What a long, long time and crazy ride it's been.
God.

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"When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~Anonymous~

Big Al's picture

that will be reached. If the primary goal of the blog is to ultimately impact a challenge of the oligarchy, some diametrically opposed viewpoints will hinder that and cause dissension.
I think we're seeing it start to shake out.

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Lord it makes me tremble...

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A handful of people spent a year or two building this site for YOU. Think of it as a space resort. The stated intention and concern was to provide a place for activists and supporters to regroup and make contact, just in case Markos or some other website owner lost their shit and jettisoned the passengers.

Really? That makes me feel a little more at home. I'm still trying to get a sense of the decorum here.

Good to see you, btw. I don't recall having seen you on DK for a very long time (maybe years?).

Edit: This was meant in reply to Pluto.
Edit 2: Did everyone else know that you could edit comments here?

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Pluto's Republic's picture

The stated intention (of the site) and concern (of its founders) was to provide a place for activists and supporters to regroup and make contact, and re-establish themselves."

The core group was here and this site was new, but they had gone through several prototypes over the preceding year or two. It was not inspired by a breach with TOP. It was more a principled and informed precaution. The spirit was much like Occupy — a dedicated and cooperative focus on benefitting the people, as a whole.

That's my narrative on what I saw. The space was to be about you and your ideas; it was not to be about them. It is still that way. Folks who heal from the destruction of their cyber-community, and who decide stay a while, will come to understand the gift. I find it noble and authentic. People and their individuality are respected, personal growth is not confined by ideology. Most here are on the Left, but then, evolution has a liberal bias.

Good to see you, too. I hope you have a good time here and feel comfortable enough to speak freely.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
riverlover's picture

I like virtual erasers. Makes us all good spellers and better at grammar.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

elenacarlena's picture

post replies to my comments to modify them. Old habits die hard!

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TrueBlueinWDC's picture

for a few days until emotions settle. This last week isn't indicative of the site as I have experienced it the last few months. Since California, some folks (not all!) have been on edge with quick tempers. Maybe it takes a bit of time to shake off the adrenaline from the constant drama on TOP? Maybe it takes a bit of time to shake off the distrust coming out of a rotten primary?

As others have shared, politically we're all various shades of "left" here, but not necessarily in agreement over the election. I am one of those Bernie or Bust (actually, Bernie or Green) folks that are getting under your skin. But I don't need to hate HRC to not want to vote for her. Her policies and strategies don't align with my principles and that's enough. I don't need to hate Pres Obama to be disappointed with many of his policies and actions as I am.

The growing disconnect between progressives and Dems is very distressing, but it's been coming for a long time. For what it's worth, if they do separate, I hope they stay friends. Goodness, it really is like being in the middle a break up where you're close with both sides. People have just broken up with TOP and with their party, and it's stressful. Sigh, our country seems to excel at dividing us all into tribes fighting among ourselves.

In any case, I'm a huge supporter of this site being open to other views and discussion. So, stay. Settle in a bit, get a feel of the place as things settle down. But don't expect that to mean we will see more eye to eye... it just means there will be less eye poking when we disagree.

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"Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change." Stephen Hawking

NEW: http://www.twitter.com/trueblueinwdc

and this last week. I know my own temper has been running a bit hotter than usual, and the disgust with the whole propaganda/party/election thing is a YUGE part of it! It is also the trickery we've seen out of our elected officials that makes us question someone's opposing opinion in a much harsher way, in my opinion. And really, if we look at political discussion overall in America right now, people are harsher in their condemnation of differing opinions, hostility, it seems, is in vogue and a harsh response to criticism is almost a given. Not a pretty thing, at all.

I too think you should say FishFry, even if I don't always like what you're saying either. Being forced to confront one's own bias is never a bad thing.

And I think one more lesson for me, at least, is remember that reading a comment you are only reading text - as we all know from those email etiquette discussions, it is not always easy to detect the tone, context or emotion of any remark in print. I could type something I think is innocuous and someone else could find that completely offensive. I don't know how to counter that one though, and I think that is a big part of misunderstanding much of the time on this site. I missed the one true "troll" we had here, but Johnny seems to be real good at finding them. And with this "election" not anywhere near over, things could get uglier going forward. All we out here can do is try to tone our own anger down and let the moderators get the trolls. And that will be easier said than done many times, I'm sure of it, for me at least it will.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

MarilynW's picture

thinking, "where am I? This person can't be referring to Caucus99." I admit I don't spend enough time here these days. But it has always been the essence of manners as far as I am concerned.

Thanks JtC for all your work.

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To thine own self be true.

mahakali overdrive's picture

my typing is choppy, sorry, because i am on an iphone abroad and find typing fifficult on it, but someone asked the other day about who was missed from DK, and you came immediately to mind for your years of onteresting and intelligent posts. Big ups and sorry you were to'd. I stopped going to DK completely a few monyhs ago out of frustration and haven't thought about it much since though sometimes fiercely miss certain posters -- you are one. Not often here, sorry, since on family holiday for a month plus running kossacks for sanders, a full time affair, but thought to try my log in today here and very glad that I did.

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“It is not the slumber of reason that engenders monsters, but vigilant and insomniac rationality.” -- Gilles Deleuze

Good for you. I'm on an iPhone too. I feel your pain.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

mahakali overdrive's picture

so we came. we saw the college yesterday. i forgot to mention this, sorry! it would cost the same as a uc, groan... no more. 14k a year for very high quality education. he will also look in berlin and norway where it is free for americans to attend, though he would have to learn languages. he does speak swedish, self- taught, but who knows. we just want him to live abroad. then i added a vacation onto the trip because two teachers mean summers off, yay! rest of the year is working seven day weeks, so not great. i have no idea how people have iphone typing patience btw... i never used it until here to go online. i find it limiting, honestly. i find myself using short words...

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“It is not the slumber of reason that engenders monsters, but vigilant and insomniac rationality.” -- Gilles Deleuze

For my grandson. He wants to do a paid internship at Lund Universiry in Sweden, then he wants to work there and finish his PhD. As an EU citizen, he has a ton of options and benefits. To do that, I had to apply for me and my daughter. Once there, it was only a few dollars more to include his two brothers. Everyone is eligible through me, and despite having 4 Italian born grandparents, I qualified through my paternal grandfather. When born, my great grandkids will automatically be Italian citizens. When I get my Italian passport, I am going to take a trip to my homeland to celebrate. Good luck to you and your son.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

TheOtherMaven's picture

I think I just missed the boat (pun deliberately intended) because maternal GF was born here and his father got naturalized (which in those days meant giving up your previous citizenship). Well, Italian politics can get even stranger than ours (Berlusconi, anyone???), so who knows....

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Lisa Lockwood's picture

An aside...I did the research to fill in the unknowns documenting dh's grandfather's birth (in an unknown town and year) in Ireland (and there are 3 recognized spellings of his last name there...try looking up 110 year old hand written census records from across the ocean 3 different ways! Eye crossing!! Took 5-6 months, but end result was a long envelope arriving by mail containing dh's shiny new Irish/EU passport (red!) and citizenship documents Smile . So, he's now a dually. Can work in any EU country. W00t!
Did that during the time where it looked as though there might be a President McCain, but it may come in handy if Drumpf squeaks in.

Further aside, it's so good to see so many familiar faces, and I'm grateful beyond measure for the hard work and great kindness of Jonny and our most excellent hosts here. For myself, I've decided to stick around as long as y'all will allow, and feel more comfortable just kicking back and reading everyone, kinda taking the temperature of the joint as it were, before jumping in with my own diaries. (Although I did post one that was kindly received, shortly after the edict at top).
That way, hopefully, I'll avoid making too many foolish statements and assumptions, a sure fire way of wearing out a welcome quickly. Anyways, sorry to wander so far ot, but mainly just wanted to say 'thanks' for this lovely life raft and it's fine fellow sailors.

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"When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~Anonymous~

99% of the time, we are a happy and harmonious group despite all of our diversity of opinions. Having you here adds to the richness of our flavor.

I am in awe of your research. I couldn't even get the government to tell me which department had my grandfather's naturalization papers let alone get them. So I hired a law firm to take care of it. They will get the proper US legal documents, translate them to Italian, mail them to Italy and get all of the proper reviews, approvals and seals, and set up the appt for our interviews at the embassy in Detroit. I did research the firm I hired, and the benefits and responsibilities of dual Italian citizenship. They do not have a draft. Americans who work in the EU must pay country of origin and US taxes on their income. I also download the Italian Constitution. They We have a right to health care, education, and not to starve. The US should be thoroughly ashamed.

Welcome and make yourself to home.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

I love the first two community standards at K4S: be civil and no drama. I see it every time I visit that site. No such reminders exist here, although the owner and some moderators post similar requests.
Thanks for that.

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Besides dkos, what site encourages drama and rudeness? It is written and obvious.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

A Month Long Holiday? WTF. (Wink)

FF I don't really "know you" but we are both loooooooooong time members of TOP and Betty you "know" me, we are both BNR hard core BERNERS... (Smile).

In fact I am STILL a five bar TU at top... Although it kind of takes to much work, these days to keep those 5 bars and self edit everything I say over there AND it's getting boring too.... The wreck list IS a wreck, for real and the FP could have (and may well be)'written by people on the Clinton/Soros payroll (smile) and I would be flagged into hiddens if I said this over there, even in jest lol

So The way I look at c99 is with gratitude for their tolerance and personal apologies for being part of the ides of march invading hordes and great sympathy that the people who created this site have had to do so much work to accommodate the mass influx of refugees and They had to watch as we took over the main "conversation" and we ranted and railed and stomped around letting out MONTHS of comments we had been holding in about TOP...

This place is DIFFERENT but it's also quite familiar too... This place is not "dedicated to electing democrats"... But it has the feel of a blog I am used to visiting. People write diaries, people read them, some post comments for, some against, some adding to the topic.. And I think the core here is further left then I am but I find it interesting AND enlightening to read opinions that differ from mine... and know I can HONESTLY disagree if so inclined.

FOR ME.... One can tell a lot about a blog by its BLOG ROLL... Who else they feel is worth checking out. And appreciate the growing C99 blog roll... Especially the climate blog links. TOP used to have an incredible blog roll and I believe it helped to make them Blog central ... Home base for many of us. Top dropped their blog roll a while ago..

Anyway... C99 is nice place with nice people and very interesting diaries (?) and two of the best things is it's NOT an echo chamber (thank goodness) and YOU CAN EDIT your comments lol

I also like MOs K4S reddit but I am STILL uncomfortable with reddit, In General, since I never ever used reddit until MO started that group... But I now visit both this wonderfully interesting sites every day.

And LDs TPW has real potential to be an even better BNR then the BNR as soon as LD,works out the bugs... And packs up shop at the GOS for good (it was a zoo there today)

Anywho... Just noticed that the sun has risen here in my part of the world... And I am going to put on a pot of cofffffeeeeeee

(Smile)

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Orwell was an optimist

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