On the Ta-Nehisi Coates v Cornel West dispute

I have two disclaimers:
1) I'm a white male, so obviously my opinion in this debate is irrelevant. Nevertheless, I'm going to offer it anyway.
2) I've been a HUGE fan of Cornel West for ages. He's brilliant and I'm openly biased in his favor.

The dispute between Coates and West started with this article from West in response to Ta-Nehisi Coates’ book We Were Eight Years in Power.

Coates and I come from a great tradition of the black freedom struggle. He represents the neoliberal wing that sounds militant about white supremacy but renders black fightback invisible. This wing reaps the benefits of the neoliberal establishment that rewards silences on issues such as Wall Street greed or Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and people.
The disagreement between Coates and me is clear: any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously misleading. So it is with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ worldview.
...In short, Coates fetishizes white supremacy. He makes it almighty, magical and unremovable. What concerns me is his narrative of “defiance”. For Coates, defiance is narrowly aesthetic – a personal commitment to writing with no connection to collective action. It generates crocodile tears of neoliberals who have no intention of sharing power or giving up privilege.
When he honestly asks: “How do you defy a power that insists on claiming you?”, the answer should be clear: they claim you because you are silent on what is a threat to their order (especially Wall Street and war). You defy them when you threaten that order.

Yes! Yes! And Double Yes!
You should always be dubious of any political movement that doesn't threaten the existing power structure. Replacing whites and males with blacks and women in the corporate boardrooms and political offices without addressing the existing system of oppression is pointless.
In a separate interview, West make a more direct point about Coates' book title.

Yes. “We Were Eight Years in Power.” Who’s the “we”? When’s the last time he’s been through the ghetto, in the hoods, to the schools and indecent housing and mass unemployment? We were in power for eight years? My God. Maybe he and some of his friends might have been in power, but not poor working people.

That is why blacks are worse off economically after eight years of Obama.
Some of Coates' defenders have come out of the woodwork with particularly snide comments.

After all, he is a world-renowned academic busy saving the world.
...
West’s characterization of neoliberalism is opinionated but largely correct.
...
I hesitate to call West’s callouts a “beef” because Coates is seemingly disinterested in becoming Biggie to West’s Tupac-ish shenanigans. (And yes, they have risen to the level of “shenanigans” because, even in the merit-based part of West’s argument, there is an undeniable level of saltiness that extends past the text of Coates’ writing.)
...
Lost in West’s criticism of Coates is an insidious undercurrent that repeatedly asks, “Why does he talk about race so much?”

West has been fighting for blacks for longer than this a**hole has been alive, and he has the nerve to put words in his mouth? For shame.

Even in his conversation with The Root, West cast his criticism in more nuance, explaining that Coates was a “brilliant brother, and we’ve got much to learn from him.” But West continued:

I just don’t like talking about white supremacy independent of the empire and patriarchy, especially of class. I think that we can’t be pre-Du Bois. Du Bois taught us white supremacy is always to be viewed in relation to class patriarchy and empire and homophobia and transphobia. If you’re talking about white supremacy as if it’s up here, you end up acting as if it’s all-powerful because it looks like it’s winning all the time, it’s winning all the time.

But it is the extra shit that makes West look like Michael Jordan throwing marbles on the court while LeBron James is breaking away for another awe-inspiring dunk. And with West—God love his brilliant soul—there is always the extra shit. Always

Obviously West was throwing pearls before swine.
It's amazing how the people who talk about intersectionality in regards to race and gender, have so much problem seeing how class and empire are it's driving forces.

Unfortunately, Coates’ allegiance to Obama has produced an impoverished understanding of black history. He reveals this when he writes: “Ossie Davis famously eulogized Malcolm X as ‘our living, Black manhood’ and ‘our own Black shining prince.’ Only one man today could bear those twin honorifics: Barack Obama.”
This gross misunderstanding of who Malcolm X was – the greatest prophetic voice against the American Empire – and who Barack Obama is – the first black head of the American Empire – speaks volumes about Coates’ neoliberal view of the world.
Coates praises Obama as a “deeply moral human being” while remaining silent on the 563 drone strikes, the assassination of US citizens with no trial, the 26,171 bombs dropped on five Muslim-majority countries in 2016 and the 550 Palestinian children killed with US supported planes in 51 days, etc. He calls Obama “one of the greatest presidents in American history,” who for “eight years ... walked on ice and never fell.”

West says it more eloquently than I could. I would simply point out that this “deeply moral human being” bragged about his bombing seven countries and that he’s “really good at killing people”.

However, the best response to Coates' unconditional praise of Obama's moral character doesn't come from me, or even West. It comes from a black person living abroad.

It’s painful to us, in the global south, to see that American writers that we read assiduously, and take seriously, are not reading us. They are not listening when we say: “Please ask your president to stop killing us.” They appear to simply not see black and brown bodies beyond US borders.
...An unrealistic and ahistorical code has been invoked, of global solidarity among people of colour, to silence debate on the actual mass slaughter of black and brown bodies by the first black head of Empire. Gabeba Baderoon, South African professor of gender and African studies at Penn State University, calls this “the imperialism the US engenders, even in its citizens of colour”.

This response is both brilliant and tragic. There's nothing like American bombs falling on your village or town to cut through all the bullsh*t.
It is the ultimate takedown of Coates and his neoliberal defenders' worldview.

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Azazello's picture

Coates has been all over Neoliberal Propaganda Radio, West not so much.

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We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.

divineorder's picture

@Azazello piece storm ensued on Twitter with attacks on West and Coates. Coates later deleted his Twitter account.

Heh.

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

Again. I am so glad to read this. It seems like Coates is the only authoritative voice (and intelligent and compelling) these days, and he just seems to lead to a dead end.

And yes that's the question, Who’s the “we”?

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Meteor Man's picture

and Coates is just wrong. It's the difference between speaking truth to power and a groveling toady. Until corrupt institutions are torn down and rebuilt nothing changes. Coates is a neoliberal apologist. West is an astute observer who pierces the veil of Neoliberal propaganda.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

term coined by Freud

In terms of postmodernity, Clive Hazell argues that consumer culture has been seen as predicated on the narcissism of small differences to achieve a superficial sense of one's own uniqueness, an ersatz sense of otherness which is only a mask for an underlying uniformity and sameness.
In 2010, author Christopher Hitchens cited the phenomenon when talking about ethno-national conflicts. "In numerous cases of apparently ethno-nationalist conflict, the deepest hatreds are manifested between people who—to most outward appearances—exhibit very few significant distinctions."
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Big Al's picture

via imperialist Bernie Sanders, which officially sanctions U.S. imperialism in it's democratic party platform.
Go figure.

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orlbucfan's picture

@Big Al That is one smear that he does not deserve. You know better than that! Regarding Malcolm X and Elijah Mohammad who had X killed, that is a very interesting part of radical(?)black history. Coates is a milquetoast/DLC fan. West is right. Rec'd!!

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Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

Big Al's picture

@orlbucfan Come on man. Have an idea. Sanders is a military industrial complex supporting imperialist. It's as simple as that. Some people here don't want to hear that it's your and their problem.
What, you guys want me to leave so I don't say shit you don't want to hear?

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orlbucfan's picture

@Big Al We disagree and I will end it at that.

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Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

@orlbucfan Maybe say to Big Al that you'll agree to disagree, not that he is wrong because really, I think we all know he isn't. Bernie never walked on water, none of them do, but it would be wrong of us to not acknowledge what is a pretty major flaw in his voting record. We don't forgive Obummer anymore, we should not give Bernie a pass on this, until the wars stop none of this ugly shit stops. IMHO.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

@lizzyh7
One circle contains the set of elected officials and electable candidates. The other circle contains people who meet all of Big Al's criteria. There is NO overlap.

In terms of electoral politics it's more accurate to say he's irrelevant than wrong. If some power emerges out of the masses that moves policy in directions Big Al and I would both like to see it go, I will be delighted. I struggle to envision it.

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divineorder's picture

@FuturePassed so well my take on this.

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

Anja Geitz's picture

@FuturePassed

We may rationalize the "electoral necessity" of continuing the lucrative business that is the mass slaughtering of women and children but that does not change the immorality of our collective "electoral choice".

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

divineorder's picture

@Anja Geitz will legislate for stopping the endless war juggernaut has lead me to vote for Jill Stein twice. Sanders has had some variable record over the years, not absolute support for imperialism. See his votes re: Iraq etc. So among candidates for National Office is he more likely to be influenced to work for change?

Of course we should work to convince the general populace to understand the US policy of endless war and get that changed. How? National referendum. National Strike?

The percentage vote Jill Stein garnered tells us magnitude of the challenge.

Who else at the national level even talks about it? A few in Congress did step up to question the AUMF. Sander voted against a funding bill for a change and gave a speech. Seems hopeless.

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

@Anja Geitz
gave Sophie a choice. Decide which of your two children will be executed or we will murder both. Sophie "voted" for the death of one of her children. How much immorality did she display?

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Anja Geitz's picture

@FuturePassed

A question posed using a fictionalized account while comparing our collective "electoral choice" to a character who was a tormented victim of war crimes against humanity, wasn't there a standard of debate on the internet that critiqued the use of Nazi comparisons called Godwin's Law?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

QMS's picture

@orlbucfan who's to judge?

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SnappleBC's picture

@orlbucfan

But I'm kind of curious about the facts underneath. Here's what I know. Bernie routinely votes for war. Bernie supports #Russiagate. Bernie voted for the recent military appropriations bill.

He seems pretty squarely in the American hegemony class. Why would you call it differently?

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

QMS's picture

@Big Al Sanders has shown his cultivated support for the war machine. Almost got blown off the hi-way with the big military jets flying over Burlington last summer. He's good in a lot of ways, but trained to ignore criticism of the empire.

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Deja's picture

@Big Al
Please don't go anywhere! While I disowned Bernie because of his Jerusalem vote, I don't know that I'd call him an imperialist. I guess all I can do is compare him to others inside the beltway, as they say. I'm betting you could make a hell of a good case convincing me, though.

I'm not leaving, regardless of the members I disagree with, and I'd be greatly disappointed if you left. They're just gonna have to live with it, or they can leave. Period.

*Now que a mod message. I'm used to it, lately.*

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Big Al's picture

@Deja I reacted, my apologies. In the end, I want what's best for this blog, as I'm sure we all do, whatever that might take.

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Deja's picture

@Big Al
I completely understand, and relate, when it comes to having someone pipe in with a comment you feel is off the fucking rails - boyyyy do I!

Still not leaving.

I feel like I'm about to read a really well thought-out and researched essay about Bernie's track record. I welcome it!

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@Big Al

What, you guys want me to leave so I don't say shit you don't want to hear?

Ride easy there, cowboy! Nobody's asking you to leave! And certainly not me!

The issue, as I see it, is this: is Bernie a wholehearted supporter of US imperialism, or has the Deep State gotten its tentacles so far into everything that anyone wanting political power of any kind must do public obeisance to US imperialism in order to get and keep it?

You clearly tend towards the former contention, while I would say that orlbucfan tends toward the latter one. Of course, direct evidence is essentially non-existent here, as the net actions of politicians end up being the same in both cases.

At which point you would bring up the point that this is just one more reason for us to rid ourselves of politicians. Smile

And those ideas need to be defended here. And you're among the best at defending them!

"So there!" Marty Leipzig PhD, FidoNet HOLYSMOKE Echo Forum

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

SnappleBC's picture

@thanatokephaloides

The issue, as I see it, is this: is Bernie a wholehearted supporter of US imperialism, or has the Deep State gotten its tentacles so far into everything that anyone wanting political power of any kind must do public obeisance to US imperialism in order to get and keep it?

But in my mind the time for such positioning is over and done with. Class war is on and I'm looking for folks who are on my side... clearly on my side. Sitting on the fence is no longer a viable option for me. That's the plan of the centrists and I'm done with it.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

@Big Al

EVERY Dem Senator votes in favor of more war, more bombing, including Warren, Franken and Brown. Sadly, Sanders votes with them 95% of the time on this.

Show me a Senator who doesn't.

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JVolvo2

Pricknick's picture

@orlbucfan
a supporter of imperialistic values.
Why for is he trying to brush up his foreign credentials other than to improve what he doesn't know about what imperialism has done to this nation and the world?
And why the hell doesn't he already know? Because he's been an enabler for all these years.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

@orlbucfan
DBAA, remember that? Tell Al why you think he's wrong but drop the histrionics, OK. This is not the place to tell folks what they can and can't do.

Oh man, I need a vacation.

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Pricknick's picture

@JtC
I thought it was DBAD.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

@Pricknick
is a better descriptor.

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QMS's picture

@JtC you deserve a break today, things go better with jfc toast (melody). Good yule to ya!

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@QMS
have a Cool Yule also, my friend.

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divineorder's picture

@JtC

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

@divineorder
Don't Be An Ass, I think Mr. Rogers coined that phrase, didn't he?

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divineorder's picture

@JtC it was appropriate to call him that. Just my 2 cnts my friend.

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

@divineorder
Please explain.

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divineorder's picture

@JtC

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

@divineorder
that's why I asked. Did you think I called Pricknick an ass? Bernie maybe? Orlbucfan maybe?

I suspect that you misinterpreted my comment thinking I was calling Pricknick an ass. If so, that's not the case. What I meant was that the word "ass" is a better descriptor in the DBAA acronym than "dick" is in DBAD, as "dick" is offensive to some. I was not calling Pricknick an ass at all.

Or am I misinterpreting your comment? Let me know what you meant and I'll explain further.

Pricknick:

All along

@JtC
I thought it was DBAD.

Me:

Ass...

@Pricknick
is a better descriptor.

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@JtC
And it's gender neutral.

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orlbucfan's picture

I disagreed with him. I will continue to do it. We're talking politics on this site so everyone better have a pretty thick skin/hide. I worked Sanders' campaign and have followed him for years. No, he is not what I define as an imperialist. And that is what I said in my earlier comment. Go back and read it!!! I certainty didn't insult Big Al. Cripes! @JtC

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Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

@orlbucfan
in that comment. But. The standing rule is Don't Be an Ass. This qualifies:

Big Al: Do NOT call Bernie Sanders an imperialist!!

Again, we do not tell folks what they can and cannot do here on this site. There are other sites where that behavior will fit in quite well, but not here.

Now as far as insulting Big Al, this qualifies:

Okay, is Big Al really that big of a wimp?

Shall we continue?

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SnappleBC's picture

@JtC

This little tempest in a teapot doesn't seem like the other one to me. I expect Big Al will be able to suffer the pretty minor slings and arrows that have been tossed his way. I'm not sure you needed to leap once more into the breach in this particular case Smile

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

Big Al's picture

@orlbucfan Nah, if you saw me on the court you'd know I can throw elbows with the best of em.

I think this goes directly to the philosophy of this blog, i.e., that it's a non-partisan blog, and the existence of competing goals and objectives on the same blog. That's a difficult thing to manage especially in politics. I think at this point, while not necessarily partisan, the bulk of the participants and audience still support the democratic party, although not the leadership, as the only reasonable option available. That presents a conflict to others who are opposed to the democratic party and the duopoly and of course that opposition presents a conflict to those who still will or would support the party depending on who the politician is, like Sanders, etc. I don't think that's going to work in the long run for some people, particularly now that we're going into 2018 election season. Because I do want this blog to prosper, I think I'll have to take one for the team.

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@Big Al
you get two free throws to make it a three point play.

Ain't no thing but a chicken wing on a string.
~Sidney Deane

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divineorder's picture

@Big Al because I could have sworn you argue for not participating in electoral politics?

Think it's safe to say West has wide credibility as working against imperialism but I am open to links showing otherwise. West would never have supported Sanders if he was 100% imperialist. West pivoted to supporting Jill Stein. I would ask you to reconsider your choice of words re Sanders. Sanders has never 100% voted with imperialists. Let's please stick with the facts:

http://www.ontheissues.org/International/Bernie_Sanders_Foreign_Policy.htm

### Glad you brought this up
re: 2018

Brand New Congress retreated :

..

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

Big Al's picture

@divineorder Ya, we all have our own facts don't we. I've presented facts on here but the Bernie fans simply don't want to hear it. I'll stick with mine, just not here anymore. I don't take kindly to people telling me what I can and can't say. You all can turn this into a dem party fan blog. Go for it.

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SnappleBC's picture

@Big Al

Bernie, quite clearly, is not the populist savior one might've hoped. Then again, he's also quite clearly a metric mile better than any of his nearest competitors. Before the election my thought was that if we got him elected we'd need to protest vigorously on the anti-war front. At least he's shown himself susceptible to activism.

Whether he buys into the neocon line because he really believes it or because he must in order to have any power at all is an interesting question. For me, that question belongs more to last year than now. Now the knives are out and it's time for people to pick sides. Sanders trying to sit on the fence isn't working for me.

That all being said, if he was on the primary ticket again I'd vote for him again under the same reasoning as before. In his particular case he's still evil, but the amount of evil is "lesser enough" that I could actually stomach it.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

divineorder's picture

@Big Al you and I.

So after all these years we have a disagreement.

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

Big Al's picture

@divineorder @divineorder I presented these and much more a long time ago on this blog. I'll leave it at that.

https://www.blackagendareport.com/bernie_sanders_imperial_pig

https://caucus99percent.com/content/sanders-led-party-would-still-be-imp...

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Raggedy Ann's picture

@Big Al
I want to personally thank you for always pushing this government envelope because you've educated me more than you'll ever know. I understand what you are saying about Bernie. I agree.

My only thing about Bernie is how grateful I am he was sent in (by the universe, imo) to wake up the populace. I am grateful he continues to point out the deficiencies. I understand he is a member of the club. However, I also understand he stands on the fringe of that club and they would probably love to kick him out. He's trying to live in two worlds, I get that.

I follow the world that keeps me engaged in the resistance. I get it from that side of Bernie; I get it from here; I get it from all the places I can still read that the msm deems subversive, until/unless the end of net neutrality prevents me.

I'm probably just rambling, now...........

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

divineorder's picture

@Raggedy Ann

My only thing about Bernie is how grateful I am he was sent in (by the universe, imo) to wake up the populace. I am grateful he continues to point out the deficiencies. I understand he is a member of the club. However, I also understand he stands on the fringe of that club and they would probably love to kick him out. He's trying to live in two worlds, I get that.

Especially leading on climate change. Who else is?

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

divineorder's picture

@Big Al and I commented in your essay at the time.

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

SnappleBC's picture

@Big Al

That presents a conflict to others who are opposed to the democratic party and the duopoly and of course that opposition presents a conflict to those who still will or would support the party depending on who the politician is, like Sanders, etc. I don't think that's going to work in the long run for some people, particularly now that we're going into 2018 election season.

OK sure. Some of the denizens here will decide that they prefer the environment of DKOS better after all -- if not DKOS then some similarly insular thought bubble that's better aligned with whatever their pre-existing gestalt is.

But I think there's a pretty fair number of us here who actually believe in the whole "discuss in good faith" thing. Using you and I as an example, you're pretty solidly in the "burn the establishment down" camp. I'm more of a mind to make multiple different plays and wait to see which works out. I'd definitely work for Sanders again if he was an option.

But that doesn't mean you and I need to devolve into some ridiculous confrontation that needn't exist. Rather, it means we need to remember, IN GOOD FAITH, that we are both seeking the same ends and, in fact, see many of the same problems. We just have some different priorities and assessments. And so in good faith we need to look for how we can reinforce each other's strategies wherever possible and, at a minimum, seek to avoid undercutting each other.

If that's not possible in a truly good faith effort then yes, it turns out you and I have "irreconcilable differences" and so we are natural enemies. But that outcome seems pretty unlikely between you, myself, and for that matter, most everyone on this board.

For the ones not interested in the good faith bit, good riddance. I hope the upcoming election season sparks vigorous, good-faith discussions about the pros and cons of various strategies to FIXING THIS SHIT ASAP! Smile

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

@SnappleBC

But I think there's a pretty fair number of us here who actually believe in the whole "discuss in good faith" thing. Using you and I as an example, you're pretty solidly in the "burn the establishment down" camp. I'm more of a mind to make multiple different plays and wait to see which works out. I'd definitely work for Sanders again if he was an option.

But that doesn't mean you and I need to devolve into some ridiculous confrontation that needn't exist.

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Big Al's picture

@SnappleBC and the duopoly. That is why I've been against Sanders the entire time this blog has been in existence, because he ran with the dem party. I will not support the dem party in any way, it is the opposition in the class war in my opinion (and some others here). Those working with the democratic party are not working toward the same thing as me and others, they are working against it by working with that party. They are supporting imperialism and war, which is in the official platform for the Democratic party. To me it's like working with the people on Daily Kos or those who support the republican party, no difference. The duopoly is my enemy, not you or others. If you or others want to work with the democratic party, or the republican party, then that goes against what I'm working toward.

I don't know about good faith. If you think I haven't been posting essays and commenting in good faith, so be it. Many times I was providing content when others were not. I'll post one final essay and let the Sanders and democratic party supporters have their blog.

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@Big Al partisan.
I support JtC with a little monthly contribution. I do it because essayists point out the evils of the duopoly, not because they trend toward LOTE.
I have no incentive to support the Democratic Party, so supporting a blog that does is contrary to my philosophy and my principles. It becomes a vicarious contribution to the Democrats.
I am taking my time making this decision. I have enjoyed my time here, and I have enjoyed you, Big Al.
Bernie Sanders is the politician that forever changed my view about financially supporting any candidate for any position.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
leave then your concern that this is a partisan blog becomes self fulfilling

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@JtC of the place as objectively as possible, then deciding what to do as the result, is self-fulfilling.
I am happy to read and learn from other disaffected Democrats who have watched their party swing right for decades and who want an actual choice about the direction their country is headed. They, and I, want peace, want that opportunity for a better life. We can talk all day about Bernie Sanders, and at the same time, we are on the brink of world war. Alarms should be sounding.
Anyone wanting to be the leader of the Free World should be stepping up to the plate.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
and I hear you. Those alarms have been ringing in my ears for a long long time.

You were talking about leaving if c99p becomes partisan. My point is c99p will become partisan when all the nonpartisans leave. Although it will be a cold day when the core group, especially the administrative core, of this site becomes partisan.

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@JtC Let's see how this all shakes out.
I am supportive and truly appreciate your contribution to internet information not filtered by TPTB.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
It's great having you here and I would hate to lose your voice. We (the membership) bicker as the world burns around us. My forehead is getting sore from banging it on my computer desk.

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snoopydawg's picture

@JtC

IMG_1672.JPG

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“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt

@on the cusp

And I have no idea of how to also address this to others, specifically Big Al, who'd leave a void if he left, perhaps to all of the wonderful, passionate, intelligent and informed/informative people on this site...

The whole point of this place seems to me to be that the community here ideally supports everyone of good faith, no matter which non-violent route(s) they think best enables a start toward achieving a better, more survivable path, in the knowledge that no two people are ever going to agree on everything.

Are we going to devolve into going each only into their own separate bubbles? If so, just on discussion sites, or throughout the entire country and world?

If none of us are to ever be capable of discussing anything or working/socializing with anyone disagreeing with our personal preferences for advance, we're all going to get very lonely - and no community or movement can then ever form.

Not to mention that we need to move forward in multiple positive ways, not just one, to achieve a better chance - or any chance - at positive change.

Why would that revitalizing diversity of thought and approach preclude information- and support-sharing among a community sharing similar ultimate goals? And what remains without that diversity, but another shiny bubble barely even worth popping?

We've something special here, let's please not blow it by blowing all this potential off?

There isn't extra time remaining to waste, there really isn't - which might be part of the reason some of us are getting antsy.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

SnappleBC's picture

@Big Al

You read with the intention to understand other's viewpoints and you seek positive rather than negative answers when you are making inferences about their motivation. Nothing more.

I would not now or ever expect you to support the Democratic party. If Sanders runs again, I would be trying to support him. What I'd hope out of that union is that you and I would both hear each other's concerns and, where possible, address them. From my standpoint as a Bernie supporter I'd be hoping that you'd educate me on the antiwar effort I'll be facing if we get him elected. I'm not hoping that you help get him elected. I'm hoping you'd help mitigate the results of that.

Insofar as what you might want or need, I don't know. What I do know is that your goals are my goals and I want to forward them wherever possible. You've already achieved a great deal of success with me in particular since my anti-war stance has hardened considerably since reading your works. So you've gained an ally even if I do support Sanders. In general I want to stop the wars and I'm open to anything you have to say on that topic. Even if, come time to support Sanders, you had a credible alternate play I'd be very willing to hear it.

That's what I mean by "good faith". Why would the election change any of that? All that's going to happen is that maybe someone will run that I can get behind and maybe they'll be a Democrat. It only becomes toxic when I start doing the purity pledge bullshit which I have no intention of doing.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

@Big Al
a thread with 4 or 5 Sanders supporters and now c99p is partisan and a Sanders/Democratic Party blog, come on Al.

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Big Al's picture

@JtC Because I respect you. I've got a project paper I'm trying to finish on a national referendum proposal. I'll post that soon.
You and yours have a good one J.

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@Big Al
nobody said the fight was going to be easy. Giving up is not an option, otherwise I'd close down this shop and go to the local pool hall and play some snooker.

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Big Al's picture

@JtC You know me by now. I won't give up. You hang in there.

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divineorder's picture

@Big Al that as jb and I have a friend who has done epic work on that issue in the past.

A visit to his website www.evanravitz.com or search for
'national referendum evanravitz.com ' will show quite a few links to that work .

It's interesting to read the Wikipedia entry for National Referendum, obviously written or edited by someone who does not support the various forms around the world.

However the Wiki entry is still worth the read imo because the survey of the history of the referendum and the former it has taken in various countries. Surely there are other better more comprehensive sources though.

Switzetland has had a form for decades. We have Swiss friends and we have exchanged visits back and forth since the 80s so have been in country at times when they have had fascinating referendums from a democratic socialist's point of view.

While we were high school teachers and participated in teacher organizations and school change movement at local state national and international levels in a small way, also have been an interested observer of the California style of referendum.

First became interested when that horrible anti-tax Proposition 13 passed that so impacted negatively impacted funding for public education and other important areas. The impact of that spread to affect us in Texas.

There are other California props that I fully suppor, but that experience of Prop 13 really was an eye opener on Referendums.

Look forward to catching your work on this. Hope it happens sooner rather than later because we will be disappearing off an on again back into Costa Rica, southern Africa etc etc.

Heh. I wonder if Coates, West have positions re: referendum?

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

@SnappleBC

I owe you recs times 1000, to the power of the people united toward our various common goals. Thank you!

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

orlbucfan's picture

@JtC

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Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

@orlbucfan

Big Al: Do NOT call Bernie Sanders an imperialist!!

I'd think that would be rather obvious.

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orlbucfan's picture

affected. It's a statement of disagreement. I'm sitting with a Websters Dictionary in my lap as I type this. @JtC

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Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

@orlbucfan
to disagree with you since you have appointed yourself arbiter of what can and can't be said on this site.

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edg's picture

@JtC

On another site that shall not be named, when a member writes a histrionic comment or tells another member what they can and can't do, that other member is likely to get gang TR'd or warned or banned. On this site, I wish that people can just respond "don't tell me what to do" and the debate continues or not, as the parties choose.

Moderation is appropriate sometimes. I don't think this was one of them

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@edg
one side I'm damned if I do, the other side I'm damned if I don't.

Well I'll be damned! I flipped the coin and it landed on it's edge. Damn coin, now what do I do.

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@JtC
He's free to come or go as he wishes.

He often says things I don't agree with, but then I'm not interested in an echo chamber like TOP.

If I disagree with his comment I generally don't reply.

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edg's picture

@JtC

Moderation is a tough and thankless job. I think you've done well. You generally moderate with a light touch and I'd like to see that continue.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@JtC

…without getting wet for longer than anyone I've ever seen. It's like some kind of freakin' record.

Remember that thing I mentioned the other day?

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Populations don’t like wars. They have to be lied into it.
That means we can be “truthed” into peace. — Julian Assange

@Pluto's Republic
thanks Pluto.

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divineorder's picture

@Big Al @Big Al
Recently, in the United States of America.....

Votes on key issues: https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/47/milita...

YMMV.

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

Big Al's picture

@divineorder Ya, he knew he had to regain some credibility on the issue, I believe he asked for some assistance from a Clinton neoliberal or something, can't remember. The problem, to me, is when you read between the lines or even in black and white, he still supports most of the false narratives and lies that support U.S. imperialism but just wants a more sensible and practical approach to Empire. That's still an imperialist and it's not going to cut it.

And importantly, he supports the Democratic party platform. I wrote an essay on that, might publish it later. The Dem party platform itself supports and sanctions U.S. imperialism and the military industrial complex. There's no getting around that imo. Considering how close we seem to be with more war with North Korea, Iran, even Russia and China, combined with the massive increase in defense spending and the indications for much more over the next ten years, I think it's a very important issue that needs to be debated.

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orlbucfan's picture

Go look up his voting record. He's been an Indie his whole political career. I don't agree with him on every issue, but I will defend him on this one. @Big Al

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Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

QMS's picture

@orlbucfan

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Anja Geitz's picture

@QMS

But the faint overtones of partisan hero worshipping sound a bit familiar.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

divineorder's picture

@orlbucfan

http://www.ontheissues.org/International/Bernie_Sanders_Foreign_Policy.htm

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

edg's picture

@divineorder

Other than a bit of unnecessary hawkishness on North Korea and "Russian aggression", I'd say Bernie's progressive stance is fairly solid.

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snoopydawg's picture

@orlbucfan

During the primary he was asked about the drone program and he said that he was fully on board with it. He's okay with regime change in Syria, but he thinks that the Saudis should have more skin in the game and he has in the past voted for increases of the military budget. But he did vote against the recent budget where congress gave Trump billions more than he was asking for.

During the Israeli "Mow the Lawn" 54 days of shelling Gaza, Israel ran out of bombs and he voted to sell them more. This was the first time I paid attention to his foreign policies and I was very disappointed that he did that. 2,000 + Palestinians lost their lives in almost two months of bombing.

I too am thankful that he woke so many of us up during the primary, but I'm very disappointed that he is on board with this Russian propaganda crap. He knows that Herheinous and Obama made that up for various reasons.

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“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt

Centaurea's picture

@Big Al Cornel West supported Bernie Sanders during the primary. But shortly after Hillary declared herself the "presumptive candidate", Cornel publicly endorsed Jill Stein and actively campaigned for her.

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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

divineorder's picture

@Centaurea

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

gulfgal98's picture

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PMMHinoy_s]

I also admit that I am a big fan of Dr. West. I have met him and actually got a hug from him. Dr. West came to Occupy Tallahassee to visit our very small occupation when he was in town for a paid speaking engagement. The man is genuine as they come. He cares about people, all people. After he spoke to the group , he stayed around as long as his schedule would allow and spoke to each of us personally. I feel very fortunate to have met Dr. West and can vouch for his passion and authenticity. My sig line is from his speech to us.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

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