"We have to fight Russia over there so we don't have to fight them here"

While Democratic elites are salivating over arming Ukraine to fight Russia "so we don't have to fight them here", Ukraine's president is actually trying to bring peace to the country.
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Most eloquent and persuasive argument against arming Ukraine came from Jack Matlock, Reagan's ambassador to Soviet Union, who observed that such border nations would act more provocatively if backed by US. You're being unfair to Reaganites. Matlock 2016:
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Aren’t there a lot of Ukrainian Neo-Nazis? And is it possible arming them might be something that in retrospect seems like a regrettable choice?
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Oh yes. Why create new propaganda tropes when the old ones still work so well...
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Continuing to normalize rehabilitate the security state.
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"National interest in promoting democracy worldwide”? Like supporting coups in Bolivia and Venezuela and helping Saudi Arabia commit genocide in Yemen? What a sick joke and shame on the MSM for not doing their job and reporting the hypocrisy of it all. Absolutely repugnant!

Ukraine for Dummies

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would indicate they will drop nukes.
Do not poke the bear.

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@on the cusp How wrong I was. And now we think we need to poke at China too. Trying for a twofer.

Sometimes you just have to wonder what is going on in these people's minds?

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Pricknick's picture

I love women, yet I hate sniveling whores like Karlan.
A piece of corrupted work she is.
Tie her to the tracks.
Thanks for the hackles on my back snoop.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

Nuts to think they can.

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Pricknick's picture

@on the cusp
Well done!

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

@Pricknick n/t

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snoopydawg's picture

This is about what the end of the first Cold War has brought. Just imagine what the second one will bring.

Capitalism’s Suicidal Trajectory

The global corporations at the heart of the U.S. empire – the arms industries, oil companies and tech firms – won the war of attrition not because capitalism was better, fairer, more democratic or more humane. The corporations won because they were more creative, more efficient, less risk-averse, more psychopathic in their hunger for wealth and power than Soviet bureaucracies.

All those qualities are now unimpeded by the constraints once imposed by a bipolar world, one shared between two super-powers. Global corporations now have absolutely unfettered power to drain the planet of every last resource to fuel a profit-driven, consumption-obsessed system of capitalism.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

Lookout's picture

...by Ray McGovern.
https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/14/ray-mcgovern-ukraine-for-dummies/

And it isn't contained in Ukraine...
Ukrainian fascists who previously fought in a US-backed neo-Nazi militia joined the anti-China protests in Hong Kong, sharing their tactics and showing off their tattoos.
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/04/ukrainian-nazis-hong-kong-protests/#m...

Aaron Mate' is doing good work. Thanks for sharing his tweet.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Arming Ukraine will make peace more unlikely and will increase the death toll if war does break out. Right now it seems that both presidents Putin and Zelinsky are trying to bring long term peace and to put Ukraine back together. The Minsk II Accords were the roadmap. Poroshenko with pressure from the neo-nazi battalions were refusing to implement it. The Accord would have put Ukraine back together with the Donbass as a semi-autonomous region, but within the Ukrainian state.

Make no mistake about it, the neo-nazis want to take Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, the land not the people. The people can leave or be killed. They have been financed by the oligarchs and are doing most of the killing in The Donbass. US arming of Ukraine also arms the militias, more dead Ukrainians.

If Zelinsky succeeds in making peace then the arms are not needed. Russia arbitrarily attacking Ukraine is preposterous. Russia is the biggest trading partner with Ukraine and a majority of Ukrainians have relatives in Russia. President Putin has no record of unprovoked attacks against other countries. You definitely cannot say the same about the West. The claim has been made by ByeDone and others that Russia killed 13,000 Ukrainians in the East. Then to say further that we need to arm Ukraine to protect them from further killing by Russia. This is a boldfaced lie. The Western Ukrainians did the killing. They killed their own countrymen. That's why arming them is obscene.

If Ukraine has a second Coup and the fascists take over and use these weapons to attack and kill Ukrainians in The Donbass then Russia will step in. At that point Russia will be forced to use extreme military force against neo-nazis wielding US weapons. Instead of tanks rolling into Kiev, Russia will flatted the city first. This is probably why Obama refused to send offensive arms to Ukraine.

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Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.

snoopydawg's picture

@The Wizard

You nailed what is happening there. Hopefully the meeting with Putin, Zelensky, Merkel and Macron will help restore some sanity there. It is coming up this month I think. Soon. But Zelensky is getting lots of push back from the Neo Nazis so hopefully he won't be taken out. But does anyone think that if our government doesn't like what he does he won't be removed?

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

You know, it seems that nothing is being said about this comment even from republicans making me think they actually believe that the next stop after Ukraine is a Russian invasion of the United States. Our entire intellectual and political and media classes have totally gone into cult mode.

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Plus, I seem to recall someone else saying something about “fighting them overt there so we don’t have to over here”...seems like it was someone all the left hated at the time...wonder whatever happened to that guy?

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The only way Joe Biden is “going to be like FDR” is that he will die in office and leave a shitty vice president as a replacement.

snoopydawg's picture

@MrWebster

around every corner and they are up to no good. Actually they believe that Russia did invade Ukraine and it's vital that the Ukrainians get those weapons because if they don't Putin is going to take Kiev. They also believe that Vlad and his Russian military has killed 10,000 people in Donbas and elsewhere when it's actually the neo Nazis who have done most of the killing. You'd think if you want to tell people what is going on there then you would do some research on it first. But so many of them have written off good websites like consortium news and other alternative websites because they didn't fall down the Russia Gate rabbit hole.

@Dr. John Carpenter

Guess you forgot that Bush and Mueller and even people in the CIA and FBI have been rehabilitated and they are now trustworthy individuals. Well as long as they tow the Russian propaganda and say that Trump is doing things that they have just made up. Mueller is on the outs again because of his 'testimony' to congress. The things they are saying about him now is very horrible.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

boriscleto's picture

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" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "

snoopydawg's picture

@boriscleto

What kind of poppycock is that? "My heart is so full of love I want Trump out of here now."

“The president's actions have seriously violated the Constitution,” she said. “He is trying to corrupt, once again, the election for his own benefit. The president has engaged in abuse of power, undermining our national security and jeopardizing the integrity of our elections."

More poppycock. How many congress members does Israel own? Anyone think that aipac plays inside the lines? This is what makes Russia Gate so silly. The only thing that people say they did was place the ads on Facebook. Oh yeah and hacked the DNC and gave the info to Wikileaks, but even if they did all that told us was that the primary was rigged. Think anyone who learned about that was going to vote for Hillary before they did? No votes were changed by Russia.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack