Trump plans to run against Socialism
It's common knowledge that Americans hate socialism. Just ask the Third Way.
It's common knowledge that it'll be suicide running against Trump as a socialist.
But is that true? It turns out that common knowledge, when given a real-world test, might be bunk.
Data for Progress used the Lucid survey sampling platform to test three different versions of a Sanders and Trump polling matchup question. The survey was in the field from January 9 to January 19 of 2020 and ran these three polls:No information: “If the 2020 U.S. Presidential election was held today, who would you vote for if the candidates were Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump?”
Partisan cues: “If the 2020 U.S. Presidential election was held today, who would you vote for if the candidates were Democrat Bernie Sanders and Republican Donald Trump?”
Socialists and billionaires: “If the 2020 U.S. Presidential election was held today, who would you vote for if the candidates were Democrat Bernie Sanders, who wants to tax the billionaire class to help the working class and Republican Donald Trump, who says Sanders is a socialist who supports a government takeover of healthcare and open borders?”
Yeh.
Go ahead and scream "Socialism Bad" Trump. See what that'll get you.
You can bet that Trump will run on patriotism and accuse Bernie and his supporters of "hating America" too.
There's just one thing about that.
No other 2020 candidate for president, including Donald Trump, can come close to matching Bernie Sanders’ level of support among members of the U.S. military, to go by the most recent campaign finance data from the Federal Election Commission.People employed by the military have donated a total of $185,625 to Sen. Sanders’ 2020 campaign. By comparison, they have given $113,012 to Trump, $80,250 to Pete Buttigieg, $64,604 to Sen. Elizabeth Warren, and a relatively paltry $33,045 to former Vice President Joe Biden, according to Doug Weber, a senior researcher at the Center for Responsive Politics.
...
That not one or two but all three major branches of the armed forces, plus the Pentagon and V.A., all appear on Sanders’ top-twenty list is probative, to say the least, of his ability to convert former Trump supporters in geographic regions that Democratic Party elites are fixated on turning blue in 2020.
The same can’t be said for the other Democratic contenders.
The Dems need a candidate that clearly beats Trump in head-to-head matchups, and appeals to former Trump supporters from the midwest and Rust Belt.
BUT NOT BERNIE! /s
Comments
He's an anti-Semite
who wants to bankrupt us by making us have Medicare For All.
(being snarky)
This tells you more about how the GDP is calculated
And building seawalls . . .
to protect NY, block seawater flows into the DE and Chesapeake Bays, increase the size of the levies surrounding New Orleans, protect the Golden Gate and evacuate people from the places I left out will double the GDP at least! See how much fund the GDP game is?
Heh! I got shellacked for making this suggestion here.
That is the argument that will carry the day. And it will be based on removing the slush fund capability of the constant revenue stream of $2-3T of monthly premiums.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
Clarification needed
$2 - 3 T in monthly payments--what is the time interval;: one month, one year, one decade?
Source please.
Yearly... It's a Guesstimate. Based Upon Total Premiums In the
pool. Premiums are invested to cover costs in friendly or effective investment vehicles. Standard insurance company schtick.
Get rid of that and you kill the insurance business and make banking and investment FAR less sexy.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
Bernie has a great responce
"See, Trump admits he intends to end Social Security, the greatest Socialist policy we have ever had". "And Medicare too"!
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
DNC discuss changing rules allow super delegate
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/31/dnc-superdelegates-110083
And they just changed the debate qualifiers
for Bloomberg.
Anyone shocked by these developments hasn’t been paying attention.
Edit for typo.
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
That's hilarious
The DNC pretended it was listening to both sides after the 2016 thing when they forced Tom Perez down our throats over Keith Ellison and now they're bringing back the super delegates?
Things that make you go hmmmmmm...and smash objects around you into tiny pieces.
"The enemy is anybody who is going to get you killed, no matter which side he's on." Yossarian
Good piece on the Perez vs Ellison story
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ7wm6DCPV4 piece
Rigging just makes me donate more money to Bernie
Bernie: The last off ramp on the road to the apocalypse.
Will we ever see a critical mass like this again in our lifetimes or in time to combat climate catastrophe? The powers that be are quaking in their boots. Let's unite and push them over the edge.
I'm hoping Tulsi winds up with a high level administrative position with Bernie, one that will be decisive in matters of war and peace. Let's include Dennis Kucinich in there, too.
Well, once they did this:
https://ivn.us/posts/dnc-to-court-we-are-a-private-corporation-with-no-o...
we could have voluntarily decided that, Look, we're gonna go into back rooms like they used to and smoke cigars and pick the candidate that way. That's not the way it was done. But they could have. And that would have also been their right,
it became incomprehensible to me why anyone would belong to their party, unless that person thinks that Bernie or Tulsi has a way to force fairness out of the DNC.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
We Are Going to be Forced to Defend and Protect Perez.
TP is the only thing standing in the way of cheating Bernie.
He will need to be lauded and supported to "stop them" from cheating Bernie. It's absurd, and it's how things are designed to work.
I should try to work out the mathematical process that the flow of support leverages. I think I know the process well enough...
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
But....
IfWhen Obama intervenes we’ll see if it is true that DNC insiders are actually willing to burn down their own house and hand Trump a second term rather than risk a Democratic Socialist leading their party.Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."
- John Maynard Keynes
Well, Hill's not sure.
She's not ready to "go there."
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I think they are SO ready.
They're just afraid it will backfire.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
NYTimes
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/opinion/sanders-bernie-bros.html
Really kind of funny, for decades the republicans have called dems every vile thing they could think of. And the dems stood there and tut-tutted. But Bernie Bros!!!! The outrage!!!!
This move confirms the Inevitable Screw Job against the Bern
which many at this venue have predicted when he announced for 2020. As surely as the sun rises in the east, the DNC will crush the Bern like a tectonic plate moving over the mid-European Alps.
Tells me that the (D) brand is what's damaged.
Perhaps "old white men" don't care to be today's "Yellow Peril".
But Bernie IS an old white man so it's hard to think that he hates old white men like the DNC does.
Of course Biden is an old white crooked man who wants to gut Social Security.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Let's just start forming some genuine socialism now.
Mafia Don needs to be our inspiration for doing the opposite of what he says. Anyone for a cooperative?
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
Savings and Loans
used to be co-ops. They were an alternative to the banks. But they were corrupted. When I opened my first account at 18, I saw that I had a vote in the business. Except to open and account I was required to give my proxy to management. So management basically stole the co-op. Then Congress let them be sold and contractors bought control and used them as private piggy banks to finance their construction projects. Then a real estate crisis caused the house of cards to collapse and banks picked the bones. This was somewhere in the '70s or '80s. I'm sure it can be found on wikipedia.
Of course I know YOU know this. I post it for younger members that may never have heard of an S&L.
That's the problem with co-ops. The same problem with Marx picking Angels and Devils by class. EVERYONE is potentially an exploiter.
The only solution is checks and balances on power. Certainly not Republican laissez-faire, but not kumbayah Socialism either. Distributed power and checks on everyone. But that won't work without an involved electorate. Witness the corrupt mis-named Democratic Party.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
That's not a problem with co-ops
any more than it is a problem with anything else.
Why is Bad Human Nature always the counter-argument to socialism--but not to capitalism, fascism, or any other ism?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It certainly should be.
In the '50s there was a lot of talk about "benevolent dictators". But if one existed, how to ensure that they stay benevolent? Same with Kings. Some monarchs really did feel a responsibility to the country they owned, but others were only interested in exploitation and getting more power, either by war or repression or both.
EDIT:
BTW, I DO support S&L's. But we depositors should not have been forced to give away our proxies. Nor should corporate shareholders be able to give their proxies to management as most do. That is letting the CEO judge himself. Also, whenever that S&L sell-out happened I think (D)'s were complicit. Even if it was under Reagan, he had Tip O'Neill selling out the people.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
The Bad Human Nature argument is as good an argument against capitalism as it is against any other system. Which is pretty horribly obvious in the current age. The mishandling of capitalism by malicious agents has brought us to the point of extinction. It has also created an international system of political tyranny throughout the English-speaking cultures (and some others as well) that would leave both Stalin and Goebbels green with envy.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Because the protagonists of capitalism
want to be bad people.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
I think, actually, it's because capitalism is assumed
to have inherent in it some set of guarantees against tyranny and its depredations.
Horrendously ironic, given that capitalism also prides itself on NOT restraining human activity.
This is not going to be a school story, so I shall say as little as possible about Jill’s school, which is not a pleasant subject. It was “Co-educational,” a school for both boys and girls, what used to be called a “mixed” school; some said it was not nearly so mixed as the minds of the people who ran it. These people had the idea that boys and girls should be allowed to do what they liked. And unfortunately what ten or fifteen of the biggest boys and girls liked best was bullying the others.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Everyone wants to believe --
the sort of story that you see coming from the historian Joel Mokyr, that capitalism has resulted in vast improvements in everyone's living standards, and that anyone with a good knowledge of history can easily show how we live far better than the medieval kings lived.
All of that can be true, while at the same time we can recognize that capitalism is a predatory phenomenon, a way of continuing with the hubris with which Europe conquered the Americas, Africa, and enough of Asia to make a solid profit.
Jason Moore describes a sort of history in which social and technological developments rescue capitalism from its predatory tendencies to exhaust the host organism, planet Earth. Moore suggests that at some point, maybe it happened a couple of years ago, the rescues will no longer be forthcoming, and so later there will be a collapse. We can accept that capitalism accompanied a vast increase in living standards while also considering that capitalism's future is not good, and that it's the fault of capitalism.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
Trouble is, we robbed the future
to create a profitable present - and the bill is coming due.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
But why should capitalism get credit for that?
Most scientific breakthroughs had nothing to do with capitalism.
I absolutely love this!
Tulsi 2020
Yep.
What kind of cooperative?
Food? Finance? Communications?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Modified French Intensive cultivation.
We buy some property and grow exotic produce using modified French Intensive cultivation methods -- anyone can grow the stuff in the Kitazawa seed catalog and the resultant crop will taste a lot better than anything you can buy in a grocery store. We use the money thusly generated to pay off the loan we took out to buy the property. Eventually we will be housing climate refugees.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
I wish we had run into each other 13 years ago.
That's when I bought land in Tennessee to start an eco-village. I provided the land, free and clear; others were to provide labor while I continued my ill-advised attempt to lobby the U.S. government to adopt rational energy policies.
As soon as things got real, it became obvious that most of the others involved didn't want to start an eco-village; they just wanted to talk about it. Several relationships broke up forever, and one couple in particular more or less stabbed me in the back by encouraging me to buy the land, and, once it was bought, taking off and buying a smaller, less expensive piece just for themselves, abandoning the project. I was left with a gigantic several hundred-thousand-dollar boondoggle around my neck, which I only just managed to sell at a tremendous loss last year.
That experience has, unfortunately, burned me out. I can't imagine beginning again now, and even if I could, I think my mother, who is also involved in our family money, would have something to say about it, given what happened last time.
I wish we had encountered each other sooner. Maybe somebody else is willing to put up cash or land in the amounts necessary.
If it ever looks like things are getting real--as in something would actually be done rather than just talked about--PM me.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
See my response in the messages.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
I dunno. Socialism has worked out great for the 1%.
They just keep getting richer and richer.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
If Drumpf Runs Against Socialism He Will Win Hillary, Obama,
Biden, Warren, Schumer, Pelosi, and ALL the Blue Checkmarks.
He will run the table in Elite circles. It would be an amazing experiment to see how much pull the Blue Checkmarks and their corporate sponsors actually have.
The Democrats sure would be in an interesting spot; stuck between ousting Drumpf and their corporate sponsors. Wonder which way they'll break?
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
Results of Dem Civil War makes predictions doubtful
There will be the Far Leftie-AOC/Squad/woke folks pulling away from corprodems but they have relatively little financial support compared to corporatists. But, if popular fundraising improves, ironically due to the Trump-associated economy growth, then small donors backing the Left-lefties might float that movement. This group of course would primarily be composed of Berniecrats and those Left of them.
Hillary and Neera need to stfu
....
It was Tlaib that booed Herheinous who went on another podcast today to slam Bernie. She said caucuses are un democratic. For gawd's sake it's the way elections have been done in this country forever, but this bitter old woman just can't let it go.
Yup
If you can dish it out then you can take it
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Someone needs to remind Hillary that she's
interfering with the election next time she bitches about Putin!
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
HRC is soooo effing brave that........
Her Awfulness is running away from process servers delivering subpoena from Tulsi in the $20 million defamation suit. Sweet. I hope someone gets a video of the #@%* bitch falling on her butt attempting to evade service. In my dreams.
I have to laugh
every time I see Bernie described as "far left". I can't take seriously anything else they say.
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
Anyone not republican
is painted as far left. It's obligatory. Even Joe Lieberman was far left until he real selfed into a total fuck.
But he is far left.
Just like Barack is a socialist.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
DCOTN #4
Bernie is not a Democrat. He is a polarizing, paranoid, authoritarian figure. He has never been able to lead and put together coalitions in DC. Many of his political positions are not so different from Trump - anti-free trade, anti-immigrant, downplaying the problem of racism, pro-gun, and so on. He has tremendous baggage - deadbeat dad, stealing electricity from his neighbor, honeymoon in Soviet Union, accepting Russian support in 2016, and so on. His followers have cult-like tendencies. Many of them voted for Trump last time. This puts me and a lot of Democrats off. I will vote for Bernie over Trump if he is the nominee, but with deep misgivings.
This wasn't hidden like it should have been, but instead got
310 recs so far. Once upon a time this would have gotten him banned.Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Please
give me the link.
Normally I can find quotes on any site without much issue or work.
This one is not coming up.
Thanks in advance.
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
It's a comment not an article
But I posted the link for you
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Wait, what?
Back in the Obama days, did you ever encounter someone so far into the right wing that they would say some absolutely off the wall thing about Obama and not explain it. It would be something so obscure you’d never heard anyone make that claim and yet they casually mention it like everyone knows? So I guess that’s where we are with the Dem tribalists and Bernie now.
It’s worth noting that this person says all this garbage and still ends with
Hmm...so Bernie is literally no better than Trump but you’d still vote for him? Ok guy.
Edit to add: I’m sure that comment was followed up with admonishments to not do the GOP’s work for them and why oh why do Democrats insist on tearing each other down?!? Because if we can’t talk about the candidates actual records, using their own words, without being chastised then I’m sure repeating a bunch of baseless smears isn’t allowed either. /s
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
The rules have gone out the window over there
Now it is quite acceptable to say something like that with no backup on the facts. But what is more heinous is what people get away with saying about Tulsi.
F'ck her cuz she is a Russian asset and not a real democrat as well as lots of sexist and misogynistic remarks about here. If anyone had said anything towards Her what they say about Tulsi and even Bernie in some cases they would have been timed out or outright banned. As you see this person got 10 recs from the anti Bernie people. Oh and in positive diaries about every candidate but Bernie it's no cool to jump in and be the first commenter to knock him down and then keep doubling down. Say whatever the hell you want about him now cuz there will always be someone to back it up.
But what really gets me is all the Russian/Putin remarks that get recs. IF anyone wanted to do a study in mass hypnosis after reading propaganda that site it the one to study.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Well, if the LA Times can do it, DK can
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Was this a place
that is a color that doesn't rhyme with anything?
Should have embedded that in a quote block.
I thought that it was your opinion. Then I thought, "No, not Snoopydawg"
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
I'm confused
What is DCOTN #4?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
My guess is DailyKos of the Net
Other names for that odious fermenting mix of Hilbots and other maniacs include DKOS [DailyKos], TOP [the Other Place], and my favorite which also includes the name of a color that no other rhymes with. Sandwiching in that color between Great and Satan gets you the GOS.
Now, for my sanity and composure, I must avoid that sulfuric acid-laden swamp. I prefer mine much blander.
When was Bernie anti-immigrant?
Or is this just another instance of Making Things Up, for $1000, Alex?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Toxic outside "blue America?"
Uh...it's "blue America" that hates Bernie and his supporters the worst.
Anyway--isn't Third Way ostensibly a Democratic organization? So aren't they part of "blue America" by their own reckoning at least?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Let's pick Klobuchar like the NY Times.
After all, electability is the #1 concern.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
HaHaHaHa!!
ain't that the truth
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Democratic party about to get its own medicine, and like it
For the last 40 years the Democratic party has ignored its minority groups, Blacks, Progressives and every other group. The thought always was - where will they go? So they took them for granted. And those groups remained loyal, yet getting screwed, as the Democrats played to their base - Wall Street, the 1%, the Plutocrats, the Kleptocrats and the Oligarchs.
Now with Bernie having a shot to get the nomination the dynamic is reversed. We can take the mainstream Democrats for granted! Where will they go, vote for Trump? They want him out and Democratic control of the Executive branch. In the meanwhile, the Socialist program is super attractive to most Americans. You want healthcare for all? You want a fair wage? You want education? You want to stop spending more than one trillion dollars a year to make war and make the US less safe. Wow! It's a great platform. Suddenly every Democrat will be for it - The NYT editorial staff, WaPo, CNN, etc. will support Bernie.
Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.
Actually they want more Trump.
That's why Joe Biden. His poll numbers will decline as he descends into initial-stage dementia. Maybe they figure they can substitute Bloomberg if it happens earlier rather than later. Anyway, someone has to lose to Trump.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
Biden assessment
Anybody who supports Biden is probably on the take somehow or dumb as dumb can be.
In that you are in agreement with me. Yet the nit which I will pick here is because I respect your great fund of knowledge, so best it be more exact. There are many forms of dementia, as you know. There are numerous rating scales, which in turn rely upon specialist administration and interpretation. My own professional experience in this field is something with which not to burden you. But excluding non-infectious, non-acute traumatic types of dementia, the average spouse, co-habitant, daughter, parent, whatever--those relations do not suspect their relative until the relative has proceeded to the latter part of the early stage, in other words, clinically is already mild-moderate (about MMSE 20/30).
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Are you arguing that Biden will last our a four-year term as our next President and still not show signs of dementia? Or something else?
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
In the mathematical sense, my comment is an argument
In that sense, Cass, an argument is a line of reasoning not often seen in the political sphere, so perhaps this is why the dichotomous use of "arguing" here.
What I am merely stating is that Joe who seems to the masses to be early in the course of his dementia is actually almost through the "early" stage and into the moderate stage where most people are definitely aware a person is not right in the head. I do not and cannot predict the course of his failing cognition, especially with inability to directly inquire, not only of JoJo himself, but of those semi-unbiased observers of his behavior in the last 6 to 10 years..
Oh, OK.
Thanks for clarifying!
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
That's what I think too--
although it's possible that they still intend to parachute Hillary in at the last minute, at the convention.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Question about Socialism
I read this week on a right wing site the argument that the major difference between national socialism and global socialism is the side's position on open borders.
Globalists like Koch want the borders open. Nationalists like Trump want to tighten them up.
And the claim was made, interestingly enough, that most true socialists, who want to protect workers, are nationalists (gasp) because open borders really kill workers' ability to unionize, strike, and lobby for wages, rights and benefits.
This person noted, that four years ago, Sanders was against open borders like Koch wanted. But then Trump enters the picture as the new villain, he wants a wall, and now Sanders is for open borders.
So where is Sanders now? On the side of open borders? Or on the side of closed borders? Because it really does make a difference to the working class. So which side is Bernie on?
Trust me, I think this is going to be the wedge issue in the election. If he goes with open borders, he is going to lose the Midwest. If he doesn't, he may lose support on the coasts.
In middle America it is not a popular idea to open borders and then say you are going to give M4A to everyone who gets in. And that is the way this is going to be played. In fact it is already being played this way.
That right wing site has no clue
what socialism is.
That discussion is so far from relevant it's hard to know where to start
You are quite wrong in this.
At least with some respects regarding the history of socialism. Before Marx, this was indeed a major dividing point of social ideology. Marx was not the first to come up with the concept of socialism.
In fact, the basis of socialism is expressed in the Preamble to the Constitution of the US, 50 years before Marx, as the fourth reason for the founding of the country: "to promote the general welfare of the people."
Does a socialist form of government protect its workers to the point of preventing immigration? Yes or no? And if it does, do you call it national socialism? If it doesn't, and supports open borders, do you call it some kind of global socialism?
As a lawyer, I take that part of the Preamble very seriously, which is why I support so many "socialist" ideas.
Do you not want to debate this?
I have just demonstrated in this thread that Bernie's written policy on borders is one of decriminalization -- which means that there is no probable cause to even stop someone short of some other kind of criminal offense. Couldn't even have a school crossing guard stopping traffic at the border (hyperbole but technically true).
This is truly an open borders policy that the Kochs should love and which he railed about in 2016.
This is a really dumb fucking idea, and Bernie should be called out on it -- and his ardent strident supporters like you, and other members of this board, should be demanding of him that he fix this outrageous fuck up.
Well, is the question about open borders "relevant" to socialism yet? You called me out on this.
You're starting to sound silly
The Kochs are not socialists - they are fascists. Use of the term "national socialist" in any context regarding socialism totally invalidates the argument. You know why - or you should.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
@TheOtherMaven The Nazis were
The Nazis were national socialists. FYI. Nazi is an abbreviation of the two words. The full name in English was the National Socialist's German Workers' Party.
They were fascists as well. They were fascists due to the government's marriage with the corporations.
For the record, Bernie is not for open borders
Here's the page on his campaign website that discusses at length his policies on immigration and the actions he will take as POTUS.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/welcoming-and-safe-america-all/
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
People often talk like there's no policy in between
throwing the borders open and letting anyone and everyone come through--or establishing concentration camps along every border.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
God. I've been starved of rational policy for so long
that Bernie practically has me at this:
Institute a moratorium on deportations until a thorough audit of past practices and policies is complete.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
And the open borders
And the borders would be flooded with immigrants if he makes border crossings a civil matter instead of a criminal matter which is what his policy says. So much for the rational policy. There would be no probable cause to stop a border crosser until he or she had a traffic violation of some kind. Talk about a really dumb idea.
Voters have always had to pick and choose
Issues that they focus on within a coalition. For you and others like you, apparently, it's the immigrants. For others, like myself, it's the global economic policies that exacerbate displacement, and the human rights afforded, or denied, to those refugees.
No one knows what issues will play out and which ones will stick in the general election against Trump. Anyone who says they know for sure is either trying to sell you something, or simply blinded by their own myopia. So, we'll see, I guess, no?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
@Anja Geitz No it is not
No it is not about immigrants for me at all when it comes to them living here. They really do not affect me from an economic point of view the way they would lots of other people whose jobs they would take.
I am much more concerned about perpetual war. Immigrants do bother me from a foreign policy point of view when it comes to perpetual war. It seems universal that immigrants from where ever they are want the US to come to the aid of the country they left. Either they want regime change or they want to prevent regime change. It seems like it takes about three or four generations to get over the view that the US should go to the aid of the country they left.
Are those assertions about what immigrants here "want"
based on some kind of empirical evidence you alone are privy to, or merely anecdotal?
In either case, the subject of this essay is about the general election and my comment about what issues will matter to the voters, and what issue won't, still stands.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
It really is hard to say what immigrants want isn't it
I was watching a video of a woman who was from Iran and was educated in one of America's elite schools. She was strongly advocating for the overthrow of Iran. What immigrants want Americans to do for their country doesn't matter until these people get into a position of influencing policy.
And if we are in all of these wars, how did we get there? We had Cubans wanting us to invade Cuba and that is well known. We certainly have Jewish people wanting us to defend Israel. We had Europeans wanting us to be involved in both World Wars (most Americans at the time wanted to stay out of both of them, yet we got sucked in).
If the reasons for getting involved all these wars was something other than immigrants demanding involvement, then the reasons have to be corporate (the other kind of person under the law). No doubt corporations are some of it.
But I think most of the time it is recent immigrants getting us into war.
OK, I've had enough...
you've convinced me that the sole reason you are here is to disrupt and troll. I see you're now editing your posts long after the initial publishing. There are two sure ways to be shown the door here, insulting other members and trolling.
I warned you weeks ago that you had one more chance, if you insulted one more member you were out of here. Hell, you've taken it to a whole new level by insulting the intelligence of the whole site.
I give members a lot of leeway but I do have my limits.
Goodbye.
This in itself would probably be enough
to get him assassinated, should he become President:
Completely reshape and reform our immigration enforcement system, including breaking up ICE and CBP and redistributing their functions to their proper authorities.
Those guys are bad fucking news.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Centaurea Here is the quote from
Here is the quote from the website that sums it up:
As president, Bernie Sanders would treat border crossings as a civil matter, and fundamentally reform the government agencies tasked with enforcing immigration law to ensure our immigration agencies and officers are serving a humanitarian mission, not a law enforcement one.
That is blatantly an open borders policy. I don't know what else to call it. A closed borders policy would be a criminal matter, not a civil matter. Border crossers would have to run a red light or do some other traffic violation before there would be probable cause to stop them.