Open Thread: What's the Message, Mr. Gardiner?

An open thread dedicated to discussing books, movies, and tv shows we love. And occasionally some politics.

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Wow. I wrote this assuming we'd be crowning Hillary today. Guess American politics still has the capacity to surprise me! Well, it's not as pertinent as I thought it would be, but I hope you enjoy it!

Today, I’d like to talk about C.S. Lewis.

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Lewis, a contemporary and friend of J.R.R. Tolkien, was many things: a soldier in WWI, left for dead on a battlefield; a British colonial born in Northern Ireland; a bereaved child who lost his mother young; a scholar, teacher, and author. Some of the things he was were unpleasant: consistently and profoundly sexist, a bit nasty about women’s intellectual abilities, he’s nobody I would have wanted to encounter had I been one of the first women to attend Oxford. He was a confirmed atheist who had been converted to Protestantism, which ended up meaning that his pride in his own rationality and rightness got turned into a pride in the rightness of a somewhat Calvinistic Christianity. Meaning, in other words, he's really really sure he's right.

Lewis' certainty of how right he is can be grating—and I don’t mean in his apologias for Christianity, where such preachiness could be expected, but in his fiction. Fairly frequently, if you’re a Lewis reader, you feel like you are, at the very least, being lectured to and expected to take notes and amend your ways. Supposedly Tolkien converted him, but there’s a capacious quality to Tolkien’s religiosity, a breadth and room, compassion and grace, within which even a pagan like myself can sit down, visit, and have a cup of tea without feeling it’s difficult to breathe. Lewis’ spiritual vision at best is far narrower than Tolkien’s. Ursula LeGuin, in her review of The Tower and Other Stories has wonderful insight into this difference between the two men, when she says that, in Tolkien’s world, it is the shadow (Gollum) , not the hero, who accomplishes the quest—evil doesn’t just reside in “the other,” but in the self, and the “evil” self isn’t garbage to be rejected or purged, but an integral part of the story. There’s nothing like that in Lewis that I know.

However, Lewis was also a very talented writer. In the same review, Ursula Le Guin rightly says that the Martian scenes Lewis wrote in Out of the Silent Planet have been copied by science fiction authors ever since he wrote it in 1938. I have been reading and re-reading Lewis most of my life. I remember asking my mother to read me The Last Battle when I was younger than 5, and her steering me back to the beginning of the series, The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. I began reading it immediately.

Like the Milky Way of Star Trek, Willy Wonka’s factory, Tolkien’s Middle-Earth, and a few other places, Narnia is an Ur-place for me: a place you almost imagine existing—maybe if you walked into your closet on the right day…or leaned too close to the wrong painting…Ah, Narnia. Just in case anybody doesn’t know it, it’s a small Northern land of woods, moors, and rivers with a big coastline and a passion for the sea.

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Oh, and the animals (most of them) and the trees talk. At one end of Narnia, in the middle of the woods, is a lamppost, burning away brightly without explanation (you have to read to the next-to-last book of the series to find out its origin). Doors to Narnia open at odd times and places (closets, train stations, paintings) and, speaking of time, Narnia’s time doesn’t run like ours; you could spend a month in our world and find a hundred years had gone by back in Narnia. Narnia is ruled and watched over by a supernatural and powerful Lion named Aslan who is an obvious Christ analogy (in case you haven’t read the first book, I won’t tell you why) and from time to time various incursions of supernatural evil (the White Witch) or more mundane colonial evil (the Telmarines) disturb Narnia, and eight children from our world must come to Narnia’s aid.

I wanted to talk today about my favorite of the series, The Silver Chair.

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The Silver Chair is a bit of a dark horse, usually thought of as the worst of the series, not the best. But I loved it because it had all the elements of Dungeons and Dragons: a group of people setting out on a quest, in this case, a quest to find a lost prince; mysteries and puzzles to solve, temptations to resist, battles to win…

And in the book, Lewis creates one of the most accurate portrayals of propaganda I’ve ever read. Four characters-- two children from our world, Jill and Eustace, the lost Prince Rillian (whom they’ve been seeking), and their companion, Puddleglum the Marsh-Wiggle are being held in an underground realm by a witch. Rather than slaying them, the witch decides to convince them not to leave. She lights a fire:

It did not blaze much, but a very sweet and drowsy smell came from it. And all through the conversation which followed, that smell grew stronger and filled the room and made it harder to think. Secondly, she took out a musical instrument…She began to play it with her fingers…After she thrummed for a time (and the sweet smell was now strong) she began speaking in a sweet, quiet voice.

“Narnia? “ she said, “Narnia?...There is no land called Narnia.”
“Yes there is, though, Ma’am, “ said Puddleglum. “You see, I happen to have lived there all my life.”
“Indeed, “ said the Witch. “Tell me, I pray you, where that country is?”
“Up there,” said Puddleglum stoutly, pointing overhead. “I—I don’t know exactly where.”
“How?” said the Queen with a kind, soft, musical laugh. “Is there a country up there among the stones and mortar on the roof?”

I bet you all can see where this is going.

“No. I suppose that other world must be all a dream.”
“Yes. It is all a dream,” said the Witch, always thrumming.
“Yes, all a dream,” said Jill.
“There never was such a world,” said the Witch.
“No,” said Jill and Scrubb, “never was such a world.”
“There never was any world but mine,” said the Witch.
“There never was any world but yours,” said they.

The Witch manages to convince them that there is nothing above ground—no realm in the light, no sun, no home. She manages to convince them that nothing but her reality exists:

The Prince and the two children were standing with their heads hung down, their cheeks flushed, their eyes half closed; the strength all gone from them; the enchantment almost complete. But Puddleglum, desperately gathering all his strength, walked over to the fire. Then he did a very brave thing. He knew it wouldn’t hurt him quite as much as it would hurt a human…But he knew it would hurt him badly enough; and so it did. With his bare foot, he stamped on the fire, grinding a large part of it into ashes…the heavy, sweet smell grew very much less. ..the fire that remained smelled very largely of burnt Marsh-wiggle, which is not at all an enchanting smell. ..the Prince and the children held up their heads again and opened their eyes.
Secondly, the Witch, in a loud, terrible voice, utterly different from the sweet tones she had been using up till now, called out, “What are you doing? Dare to touch my fire again, mud-filth, and I’ll turn the blood to fire inside your veins.”
Thirdly, the pain itself made Puddleglum’s head for a moment perfectly clear and he knew exactly what he really thought:

Sometimes the blunt force of Lewis’ morality, usually preachy and irritating, is bloody brilliant:

“One word, Ma’am,” he said…”One word. All you’ve been saying is quite right, I shouldn’t wonder. I’m a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won’t deny any of what you said. But there’s one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things--trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we’re leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overworld. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think, but that’s small loss if the world’s as dull a place as you say.”

In an era in which America has come to look very like the Witch's "black pit of a kingdom," I intend to live as like what an American was supposed to be as I can even if there isn't any such America.

May the best of humanity prevail.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I'm living between houses right now, and running back and forth from the rental where there's internet access, to the house, where there isn't any yet, and I gotta get back to my family and breakfast. So I won't be on much this morning. I'm sorry for the inconvenience, and the post-and-dash, and hope to get back to the thread in between moving things!

Despite how horrible Trump is, I'm feeling incredible relief this morning, because it's just possible we're not headed straight for nuclear war.

Blessings on all.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

kharma's picture

Congrats on getting into your new place it is always an exciting time. On politics, the great news is:

The Democratic Party will be forced to either realign itself with the people or die.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Will post pictures once I'm well and truly in.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

skod's picture

Despite how horrible Trump is, I'm feeling incredible relief this morning, because it's just possible we're not headed straight for nuclear war.

I didn't have my white-flash nightmare last night. Amazing...

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

reflectionsv37's picture

I've still been watching Fox election results and although they still haven't called Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Arizona or even Alaska, Hillary just took the lead in the popular vote by 35K votes. Prepare to hear this screamed from one side of the country to the other tomorrow morning! Trump may end up with more than 300EV, but that won't stop the Hillbots from screaming.

I suspect this has something to do with why Hillary wanted to wait until tomorrow to make her "concession" speech. I have a gut feeling tomorrow is going to be a nightmare. Demands for recounts and who knows what else?

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“Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.”
George W. Bush

Markos is calling for Bernie to be DNC Chairman. Can't even begin to unpack that atm.

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Anything Kos wants, I don't. He owns this fiasco. DailyKos elected Trump.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

sucks at anyway? Maybe he thinks he can ingratiate himself with Bernie by proposing him for the role? Seriously? Like he's scurrying around tucking his digital brownshirt uniform in the attic, and everyone's just gonna forget?

Fuck, his political instincts are worse than Hers.

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Good morning and thanks for the essay.
Wake up and it is "morning in america" again? I don't know wtf just happened. This from the LA Times this morning I think? It's all a blur at the moment but wow:
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Cruelifornia. Pfft!

Shervin Pishevar, cofounder of the venture capital firm Sherpa Capital and of the startup Hyperloop One, said that he would agitate for his state seceding from the union. “1/ If Trump wins I am announcing and funding a legitimate campaign for California to become its own nation,” he said.

LOL : Silicon Valley Is Panicking About a Donald Trump Presidency
3... 2... 1 popcorn!

Peace & Love

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hanging Trump around the professional left's neck and down the party's throat.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

thanatokephaloides's picture

I hope their is some organization out there hanging Trump around the professional left's neck and down the party's throat.

There's at least one of those.

It's called cacucus99percent.com!

Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Lookout's picture

maybe a T-rump presidency will mean no TPP and no war with Russia?

I thought this quote from Joe's EB last night hits the nail on the head. From Standing Rock:

“We’re either going to change the world with this movement, or the world is going to die,” said Ho-Waste Wakiya, an enrolled member of the coastal band of the Chumash Nation, as he sat outside his tipi at the Sacred Stone camp.

With those stakes in mind, the circus of the presidential campaign seems distant and insignificant.

Like Jimmy says...we don't need T-rump...we have Obomber (10 min)
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dqm0XyhBZE]

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

mimi's picture

??? Float with the current? Pray to find a save haven through your anxiety attacks to drown?

I couldn't help staring at Trump's little son on stage aside his father. My God why do they always pull their kids in front of the cameras.

I had bad internet connections and slept with headaches, awaked with headaches and think God wanted me to not have to watch this whole disaster.

I hope all of you, who thought about voting for Trump, will now be happy in what they got with his victory. Who knows what you got in him? What are the unintended consequences? What are the intended consequences?

Never felt I so lost. I have no clue what it all means.

I am waiting to hear from Bernie Sanders.

I can't watch, listen or think about US media anymore. I am going back to sleep. Good Morning, err Good Day, err Good "Day After". So, now the virgin America got pregnant. With that Trump child. What will she do? Abort? Or just try to raise that child to behave responsibly?

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Hillbilly Dem's picture

I couldn't help but think of "Rosemary's Baby".

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"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey

TheOtherMaven's picture

Roman Polanski, because he's a sleazebag, and Mia Farrow, because she's a mini-Shill with a Mother Bountiful complex - which only operates as long as her children are compliant and grateful.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

thanatokephaloides's picture

Mia Farrow, because she's a mini-Shill with a Mother Bountiful complex - which only operates as long as her children are compliant and grateful.

"Cat dammit, Woody, I told you to tuck the children in bed!"

(sorry, couldn't help myself!)

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

TheOtherMaven's picture

She lies convincingly with a straight face, and gets other people to buy into her false reality.

I researched that whole hideous mess when she and her fair-haired boy Ronan dragged it back up at the 2014 Golden Globes, and came to the conclusion that Woody was not guilty of molesting Dylan. (But he had acted like a selfish twit by getting involved with Soon-Yi Previn - who, however, was fully adult and quite capable of making her own decisions, whether or not they were wise ones.)

There's a whole helluva lot more to it, too - but this is not the time nor the place to go into it.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

thanatokephaloides's picture

(But he had acted like a selfish twit by getting involved with Soon-Yi Previn - who, however, was fully adult and quite capable of making her own decisions, whether or not they were wise ones.)

That's all I thought was behind that joke, elsewise I would not have posted it!

Ouch!

There's a whole helluva lot more to it, too - but this is not the time nor the place to go into it.

Agreed. Again, had I known that there was anything genuinely nefarious about that situation (rather than just plain dumb, which the whole Soon-Yi Previn thing was), I would have resisted harder.

My apologies.

Sad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Instead I wrote in a candidate who was royally screwed by the Clinton establishment. Hillary, herself, Her onliness, is responsible for the grief you feel. No one else to be blamed. It is all very simple, but of course, will be ruminated upon for years to cum. Regardless of how long we postulate...it is still, and always will be, HER fault that D Trump will be our next POTUS.

Please place the blame appropriately. Otherwise it is useless, irritating, whining.

Yes, we have our work cut out for us, but give up the blame game.

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skod's picture

for the first time since March, and looked around a bit. Was planning on posting a farewell comment, since they hadn't killed off my account yet- but then realized "why bother"? That would be two minutes of my life that I'd never get back.

I do think that it is downright _rich_ that Kos is calling for Sanders to head the DNC. Wow. Other than that, it's the same sewer that it has been since March.

Wonder how many more Arkancides there'll be before the last of that sweet, sweet untraceable superpac/foundation cash is all used up? This development is going to put a real dent in the Clinton family revenue prospects, innit...

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harrybothered's picture

After this humiliating defeat to the WWF reality-TV star that her party and the media elevated, she probably doesn't have as much influence on the international stage anymore. Boo hoo.

I'm sure the 1%ers will find a new champion somewhere.

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"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it."
Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

harrybothered's picture

After you hit save it just hangs there, then stops, so you hit save again and you end up with two.

Hey, JtC, can all of us donate $20 or something to get more server space or whatever you need? Getting on here last night was brutal.
Thanks!

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"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it."
Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

thanatokephaloides's picture

Hey, JtC, can all of us donate $20 or something to get more server space or whatever you need? Getting on here last night was brutal.
Thanks!

What would have been needed to cure last night's problems on c99p would have been a server farm like the NSA's one in Utah. That's more like $20 million, apiece.

We should, indeed, contribute financially, all we can, to our beloved c99. But unless we get some members with Gatesian levels of cash, JtC won't be able to get us into the realms of effortless, fast and reliable service under last night's conditions. That's just a force majeure situation, nothing else. And there really is no help for it.

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

harrybothered's picture

start saving.

I did $25 today. Can I be on an installment plan?

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"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it."
Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

Unabashed Liberal's picture

envy you being between places--'been there, done that,' more than a few times--but, hope the transition goes as smooth as possible.

Have a good one!

Mollie


“I believe in the redemptive powers of a dog’s love. It is in recognition of each dog’s potential to lift the human spirit and therefore– to change society for the better, that I fight to make sure every street dog has its day.”
--Stasha Wong, Secretary, Save Our Street Dogs (SOSD)

The SOSD Fantastic Four

Available For Adoption, Save Our Street Dogs, SOSD

Taro
Taro, SOSD

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I hope this transition part doesn't last too long--but I can't be fully out of here until we've remodeled one of the garages in the new place into a computer/TV room.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

elenacarlena's picture

We need to all find our Narnias.

I hope Her Heinous challenges the results and fights election fraud with every fiber of her being, so that NO one will ever be able to hack the machines or purge voter rolls again ever.

Live by the sword, die by the sword Hill?

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

elenacarlena's picture

train wreck. Debating between moar coffee and major naps.

Kentucky_Coffee[1].png

OR

Cat Himalayan 196076999_54831bcaec[1].jpg

?

Feelin a bit shell shocked today.

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

harrybothered's picture

Wish I could but I'm at work. Left C99 at 10 or so, got to sleep maybe by 11:30, then woke up at 2. That's when reality set in. Needless to say it was hard getting back to sleep. I am going to be so worthless today. I'm 48 and don't cope with lack of sleep well anymore.
Both my kitties are sleeping away at home, I'm sure. Wish I was with them.

Peace

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"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it."
Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

enhydra lutris's picture

but I'm still not ever going to read CS Lewis. Long ago I derived acting as one should (not an American so much as a human) from the simple principle of tacit consent combined with the reasoning behind Kant's categorical imperative. No doubt the fact that I was an aficionado of Bertrand Russell at a young age helped, Wink

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

the certainty that he's right, or the sexism that gets you? Or something else?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

polkageist's picture

I didn't read the Narnia tales until I was grown up. Better late than never. Thanks for reminding me of Puddleglum.

Your conclusion is excellent.

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-Greed is not a virtue.
-Socialism: the radical idea of sharing.
-Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962

harrybothered's picture

I read them all several times in middle school. They didn't translate to adulthood though. I tried to read them again when I was in my 20s and the Christianity definitely turned me off.

You have made me so nostalgic though, I may try again. Smile
Peace

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"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it."
Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

Damnit Janet's picture

BUT... we could talk about marijuana measures. Weed won, mostly. Many people were sad, upset, angry. One asked if we had any strain that would keep him high for 4 years.

On my way to work, I saw an old man with a "VETERAN" hat at an intersection waving an upside down flag.

Last night at around 1am shots were fired on my street/hood. Portland is a mess. Lots of protests and street closures. Fucking Max was stopped for a while.

Oh an fuck the DNC. I am never signing on as a Democrat every again.

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"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison