Open Thread - 11-25-22 - We Will All Go Down Together

I'm still decompressing from my week in hell. I've had this knocking around in my noggin for a few days. I haven't really formulated it into a complete essay, but for the want of something to read on this money induced Black Friday, I'll try to lay it out and maybe you all can help make it somewhat cogent.

The collectivism vs. individualism dichotomy is the focal point of the upside down world we've been living in the past few years, in my humble opinion. Individualism is being suppressed while collectivism is being forced upon us. The push is strong to corral us into a hive-mind existence, both in the physical and conceptual realms. There are strong forces at work as evidenced by this movement towards collectivism emanating from almost all of the western countries of the world, in unison.

We're supposed to give up everything we own, live in small cubicle-like dwellings and eat insects for sustenance. We're supposed to follow state diktats unquestionably and get in line for the latest thing. We're supposed to forget history, a history forged by rugged individualism. We're supposed give all to our so called "betters" for the sake of mankind, or some such. All for the good of us all, like good little automatons. In essence we will become The Borg.

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The West is upside down.

Don't get me wrong, I've said for years that some form of collectivism is the right concept for a finite world that is running low on resources. Infinite growth has outgrown itself. But, this fevered dream of an existence that is being foisted upon us is not for the sake of humanity as a whole. It is plainly and simply an attempt to maintain the status quo for those that brought us to this precipice in the first place. Those that have become filthy rich at the expense of the collective. Those that wish to rule the world, the same world that may turn against them. Their biggest fear.

It somewhat amazes me the traction the -collectivism for thee and opulence for me- crowd have so far gained. The decades of conditioning are paying premiums as the hoi polloi fall in line. The bombardment of propaganda is having its effect.

It remains to be seen though, whether individualism can be separated from the archetypal psyche of free will. I hope not.

Keep on thinking free.

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Comments

I hope this made sense.

Thank you all for the responses to my Welcome Back essay from a couple of days ago. The overwhelming positive attitudes were uplifting to say the least. THAT makes it all worthwhile.

Thank you.

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mimi's picture

@JtC
better to go down all together than all alone.

Thank you JtC. And let them tyrants be green with jealousy, they will have to eat their jealousy and go down from it all alone.

Fucking sad. Thinking free and talking like a prisoner, always being scared.

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mimi

The move toward collectivism by design also de-incentivizes an individual's desire to learn, to achieve, to explore, or to excel. By age 4, you will know what you will become, where and how you will live. You will live the same life as your parents. There will be no spark of love and romance with your mate, as the mate will be just like all other potential mates.
Who will sing? What will be the song?

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
and the joy from living. A prison without bars.

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@JtC

Thanks for the OT JtC .
Reading an anthology Doing Time
collated with writers in prison by PEN.

One by Barbara Saunders - The Poets Plight

words slide behind my eyelids
go crashing thru my brain
crying ancient sorrows
speaking ancient pain

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@QMS
would be green with jealousy seeing what technology has wrought.

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@JtC

entertainment as a form of tyranny
diversions without thought
control without physical restraints

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usefewersyllables's picture

@JtC

When we were in Egypt years ago, when we could still afford to travel, the docents were quite insistent that the Pyramids were built by “Jewish volunteers”.

Right.

So we are now all volunteering to become Coppertops, I guess….

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

TheOtherMaven's picture

@usefewersyllables

Something for the farmers to do during the flood season, in exchange for food supplies from the Royal granaries (and a bit of pocket change if there was any to spare). The idea that they were built by "slave labor" is very old, and we're still learning just how incorrect.

It's almost exactly parallel to the idea that ancient ships were manned by "galley slaves". No, that was a strictly Renaissance idea, not done before - the rowers for Classical Greece and Rome and so forth were usually soldiers/sailors assigned to rowing duty, or occasionally "working passengers" who couldn't afford to pay the fare.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

@TheOtherMaven

somewhere in the past (after roman times) I can understand why being a rower, galley hand,
or whatever was a sought-after position. Whatever gets you out of Dodge ..

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it seems to me that both of these competing ‘ism’s fail to adequately address the essential necessity of humans rediscovering a healthy relationship with ALL of the other life forms we share (sic) the planet with. There literally is no future without a reciprocal relationship to our still wide (but quickly shrinking) diversity of life forms.

Humans are not smart enough, or wise enough, to both know and understand this vast web of interdependencies that make up life on Earth. Meddling with a coherent system that has evolved and adapted over uncountable millenniums is what got us into our precarious situation. We can’t expect that more of the same hubristic meddling will solve the problem it has just created.

Or can we?

Our path to the present seemed like progress at the time. It’s time to find another way of being and a different understanding of our place and purpose on this planet. Eating bugs and staring at pixelated versions of reality while in an obedient stupor seems well short of a “life well lived”.

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“The vaccine was not brought in for COVID. COVID was brought in for the vaccine. Once you realize that, everything else makes sense.” ~ Dr. Reiner Fuellmich

@ovals49

What does Genesis say about dominion?

Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

This mythology has dominated civilization for thousands of years. Its starting point is that human beings are separate from the rest of all the creeping "things," and concludes with the divine order to dominate everything else.

We must embrace a different mythology that re-unites us with our world which will kick our collective ass if we continue to try to dominate it.

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

@fire with fire
and skills that are not available to all, or perhaps only most, of the other life forms we share the planet with. However, very few of us seem to actualize anything close to our full potentials. Are we even trying to be competent ‘lord’ or ‘master’ to our ‘Eden’, this planet we call Earth?

Perhaps dominion is not granted for pillage rights, but for care and tending.

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“The vaccine was not brought in for COVID. COVID was brought in for the vaccine. Once you realize that, everything else makes sense.” ~ Dr. Reiner Fuellmich

@ovals49

Even in a situation where the king and a small coterie of elites exercise absolute power they are still going to starve to death if all the serfs that actually produce something are dead...

Authority, to be legitimate, comes with responsibilities.

To take a couple historical examples, in the traditional rice culture of Bali and the tended chestnut forests of Corsica humans considerably modified the existing environment, but established productive, energy efficient systems sustainable for millennia - such systems rely on local involvement in production and decision-making and are not amenable to centralized control and standardization.

Societal resilience is enhanced by decentralization of production and decision-making and culture (this is what I thought the Greens were supposed to be about) but what the Davos and RCP types are attempting to impose is just the opposite: centralization, uniformity and total control.

We should respond accordingly.

Quote of the Week:

"We need new conspiracy theories, the old ones have all come true."

- Unknown

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@ovals49 A responsible interpretation of the myth

A Biblical View of Dominion: Stewardship

Justin Holcomb over at The Resurgence provides some great insights on a more biblical view of dominion, focusing specifically on how it must mirror the dominion of our Creator. Holcomb writes:

Dominion does not mean destruction, but responsibility. It is important to avoid flawed convictions about the right and power of humankind in relation to the rest of the natural world.

Holcomb then quotes Francis Schaeffer on a right view of dominion:

Fallen man has dominion over nature, but he uses it wrongly. The Christian is called upon to exhibit this dominion, but exhibit it rightly: treating the thing as having value itself, exercising dominion without being destructive.

Holcomb concludes:

It is true that a false view of dominion has played a role in the mistreatment of creation, but a correct understanding of the concept can lead to service, responsibility, and stewardship.

I am not comfortable with either end of this interpretation of the Genesis myth. Both concepts are exercises of self-congratulation by our species. It is true that we have the power of speech, which grants us immense power over our environment, granting us a past with accumulated knowledge and collective competence. I have no quarrel with the admonition to use this power responsibly. But I'm not satisfied with the results so far of the stewardship rationale.

I think we must demote ourselves from God's likeness in order to find a way to survive within our habitat. That is what I mean by needing a new mythology. I don't believe in "God" and I believe that Genesis put it backwards -- certain humans created this "God" in our own image, with nasty consequences for thousands of years that have finally brought us to a reckoning of Biblical proportions.

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

snoopydawg's picture

Right wing sites used to be considered wingnut territory but lately I’ve been thinking that they aren’t so out there. Klaus has been very upfront about what the plans are for us by 2030 and this fits right in with where we are headed.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/11/smart-cities-worldwide-converte...

Smart technology has been moving forward without much dialogue from we the people. Lots of things discussed in this essay have already come to pass. When Bush told us that he was spying on us so many people just yawned and said that they had nothing to hide. They gave him permission to not only spy on us but to plant whatever they wanted to. Look at how many whistleblowers have had porn put on their computers just to make them comply. I don’t understand why people bought the Amazon spy device just to make their lives easier or to spunk it up. Then they bought the outside spy device that captures whatever they see and cops are illegally taking a look into the recordings. Nothing like paying to have big brother spy on us. Duh what did people think would happen?

Sure it’s the gateway pundit but does that mean it’s not coming? Utah just installed the lights on the freeway that is discussed in the essay. Believe it or not. They already told us that this would happen. Btw Biden is going to sign us up for the digital passports that people will have to have if they want to fly outside the country. He is also going to give away our national sovereignty so when they release the next pandemic our constitution will be even more nullified than it is now. Again I direct you to Katherine Watts who has shown that it’s mostly gone already.

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Rhett Butler contemptuously reminded Southern secession hot heads “There’s not a cannon factory in the whole South.”

It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

mimi's picture

@snoopydawg
we want 'em black and white on paper. Sigh.

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mimi

snoopydawg's picture

@mimi

Too many people are okay with making a 2 tiered society for those who follow government dictates and those who don’t want to. One thing this pandemic showed is how many people willingly gave us their rights and wanted to punish those who said no way will I give up mine. The majority of dem voters think that anyone who doesn’t do what they are told should lose their children and their rights until they get right in the head and start doing what the government and others think they should. It’s easy now to understand a lot about human behavior in the past. I find it sad and mind boggling. In other words too many people are willing to accept totalitarian rule. So much for the land of the free and the brave.

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Rhett Butler contemptuously reminded Southern secession hot heads “There’s not a cannon factory in the whole South.”

It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@snoopydawg Both vets. 1 Army, the other Air Force. Both in security, both in intelligence. One went on to work in the FBI as a security tech. The other became an employee with a security/tech corporation with government contracts. Both had the highest possible clearance, and one still does.
Nothing in the linked article contradicts anything they have been telling me for years. Both have told me it is so deep, wide, and entrenched, it has to be destroyed, whereas most people believe it must be stopped. All that is really left to do is go cashless.
My driver's license is now a biometric yellow star type.
Cashless, digital passport coming soon.
I will listen to the video in fits and starts this evening.
Thanks for posting. I do not care about the source of the truth as much as the damn truth being told.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@snoopydawg It was very informative about the propaganda process, the justification of massive surveillance, and a forewarning of what is coming.
I did think it was weak as to solutions. And that is not the fault of the host or interviewee. The problem is deriving a workable solution to take back the globe from the globalists. And, good luck with that!
My pal that came by to visit me, the one with the security clearance for at least another few months before it expires, said flat out, digital currency is when it is all over.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

my voice (belatedly) to the fantastic chorus of voices who already thanked you yesterday, JtC, for reclaiming this site from the void last week and all the work you continually do to keep it going. In its temporary absence from the intertubes, I was struck with how much I would miss it if it were not here. I would also miss all the people and all the ideas we have been discussing and sharing over the years. A Huge thank you JtC, as well as a huge thank you to all the contributors who help keep things humming here. I will give Q my contact info because I would hate to loose track of everyone. Smile

With regards to your subject today, Russell Brand has a video up that is pretty insightful. He covers some of the problems that would be encountered with the acceptance of this sort of centralized approach to government. Who gets to be in power? Who would control everything? We already have seen the flaws in our own system of government in which even a shred of democratic control has totally eluded the citizens. It has simply become a complete farce.

Hope everyone has a pleasant long weekend and the opportunity to have some fun. Take care all.

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@randtntx Thanks for bringing that video.
It is also great to "see" you!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp . Brand has often been spot-on lately with his commentary plus he manages to get a laugh out of the news.

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Lookout's picture

even if everyday is a holiday and every night is Saturday night. Should be TGIC99...missed you folks and glad to have you back. More later...

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout My last Sunday was way weird, pal!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Lookout's picture

@on the cusp

Nice to have the community back! Thanks JtC and everyone else.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

The Liberal Moonbat's picture

This is one of those "premise-traps" that blind one to real alternatives; it's fundamentally wrong, and people like myself - who COULD NOT POSSIBLY LIVE in the world you foreshadow - are living proof.

Morality comes from within; altruism is born of egotism.

The entire premise of the duality you're presenting is wrong, like an Evil Yin-Yang.
It pisses me off that I grew up in Silicon Valley, where I was fortunate for this fallacy to simply not exist, but now it's become a hub of dissemination for this paradigm at the expense of all others. You'd think people who lived there would at least be aware of the possibilities I grew up with. I don't understand what happened.

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In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is declared insane when he speaks of colors.

To paraphrase Jodie Foster: Human is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.

@The Liberal Moonbat

can't quite make the leap of this dichotomy.
Is it the individualism/collectivism of which you refer?
thanks

Q

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The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@QMS What JtC was originally talking about.

If people you loathe are talking along a certain track, it's usually not a good idea to follow along.

You are what you think.

- Buddhist sutra

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In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is declared insane when he speaks of colors.

To paraphrase Jodie Foster: Human is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.

@The Liberal Moonbat

You are not what you don't think?
Or some such. Could have fun with that
particular koan..

You don't think that you are not
therefore you are.

or

maybe opposites do not apply in this logic,
not being an expert in these philosophic endeavors
like my grandad said, I only know what I don't
Wink

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The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@QMS

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In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is declared insane when he speaks of colors.

To paraphrase Jodie Foster: Human is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.

@The Liberal Moonbat

no, have to go back many generations to Irish immigrants working the ships

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