The irony of Trump's "Watergate" scandal
Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017
How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017
OK. For the sake of brevity, let's overlook a few things. Namely:
1) That it may or may not be true
The Guardian has learned that the FBI applied for a warrant from the foreign intelligence surveillance (Fisa) court over the summer in order to monitor four members of the Trump team suspected of irregular contacts with Russian officials. The Fisa court turned down the application asking FBI counter-intelligence investigators to narrow its focus. According to one report, the FBI was finally granted a warrant in October, but that has not been confirmed, and it is not clear whether any warrant led to a full investigation.
2) Even if this was true, it still wouldn't be anything like McCarthyism (Read a book, Donald!)
3) Even if this was true, it still wouldn't be like Watergate (Read a book, Donald!)
MORE: Spokesperson for former Pres. Obama responds to Trump wiretap allegation, calls it "simply false." https://t.co/cXyQHeSvNy pic.twitter.com/se2gno6wxz
— ABC News (@ABC) March 4, 2017
The true irony here is that Trump is unquestionably correct that the government was spying on him, and that Trump is totally good with the idea.
Trump says he didn't have anything to do with DNC email hack. “I wish I had that power, man, that would be power," he said in Scranton.
— Reid J. Epstein (@reidepstein) July 27, 2016
Consider Trump's cabinet appointments:
Sessions has opposed restraints on NSA surveillance and said in June that he supported legislation to expand the types of internet data the FBI can intercept without warrants.
He is also an outspoken supporter of the National Security Agency’s surveillance programs, especially the mass collection of metadata. In an editorial in the Wall Street Journal last year, Pompeo called for a “fundamental upgrade to America’s surveillance capabilities” and to repeal the reforms to government surveillance implemented after the Edward Snowden revelations.
“Collection of the contents of specific targets’ communications under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act has been dumbed down,” Pompeo wrote, “with onerous requirements to secure the authorizing court order. The intelligence community feels beleaguered and bereft of political support.”
Dan Coats as director of national intelligence
While a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Coats was an outspoken supporter of the NSA’s illegal domestic spying programs revealed by whistleblower Edward Snowden, writing in an op-ed that the programs were “legal, constitutional and used only under strict oversight,” claims which were all proven false by multiple federal judges. After the programs were declared illegal by several federal courts, he voted against legislation to rein in domestic surveillance operations.
To Trump, 4th Amendment protections are for the political and wealthy elites. Not for the working class.
To have your rights violated like some regular Joe is an outrage!
Trump the narcissist is so totally lacking in self-awareness that he is incapable of seeing this irony.
Just like Diane Feinstein.
"What is incredible about these accusations is they are not coming from Senator Ron 'Privacy is important' Wyden or Senator Rand 'Don't kill me with a flying robot' Paul," Stewart said. "They are coming from Dianne 'So the NSA is looking at your data' Feinstein."He then played a montage of clips showing the many instances in which Feinstein, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, has supported National Security Agency snooping on private citizens.
Comments
While the Vietnam war rages on.
Wait, what year is this?
I think the main problem is humans. If we can figure out a way to get rid of them, maybe we could make some progress.
I wonder whose phones Trump is having tapped right now. Or maybe this dude just doesn't know. I've never seen someone so convinced of their superiority and righteousness. There's got to be some human disorders in there somewhere.
hmm, how about this conspiracy theory of mine? (redacted)
https://www.euronews.com/
It's actually a lot worse...
Not sure what you mean by this, but using private contractors is, at least in my book, not nearly as egregious as using official government surveillance assets to illegally spy on the President's political opponents.
Basically, Obama turned the entire Federal security apparatus into a vast taxpayer funded version of the Plumbers.
Bottom line: we should not let our dislike of Trump keep us from recognizing this is a far bigger abuse of Presidential power than Watergate ever was.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
Don't agree
If this even happened (probably not), then the Guardian says he used FISA, and thus made it legal.
Plus, there was at least a justifiable reason for it (if not the real reason).
Basically what we are talking about is an abuse of power that happens to every single one of us every day.
Don't be naive
Of course it happened. Where do you think all think Trump/Russia crap was coming from during the election? And considering a lot of the leaked info hit prior to October when a new warrant MAY have been issued (although even that's not confirmed), the evidence strongly suggests Obama was already spying on Trump without legal authorization before the alleged warrant was issued.
Basically, the spooks did what they always do: spy first and get official permission later. Except this time the FISA court hung them out on a limb by actually showing a sliver of a backbone, so then the spooks were stuck without post hoc authorization for a crime they had already committed.
Moreover, I'll bet dollars to donuts that even if that second warrant application was granted, the scope was far less than the would have covered the surveillance they had already engaged in, which is why the Guardian (about as reliable as the NYT when it comes to deep state shenanigans) makes the point that no further investigation was conducted - because the spooks already had more than they were allowed to gather.
There was no justifiable reason, which is why the even the rubber stamp FISA court made the rare rejection of the warrant. Unless of course you've started falling all this Neo McCarthyite bullshit, which after all your good writing on this would be quite a disappointment.
Every single one of us is not running for President, and even if we were, blanket spying on an uber-Stasi level is not something we should ever use as a rationale to excuse blatant abuse of Executive power.
Sorry man, but your really need to get your head straight on this one.
Read this and then tell me you still see nothing wrong with all of Obama's creepy activities in the last six months of his Presidency.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
@Not Henry Kissinger blanket spying on an
blanket spying on an uber-Stasi level is not something we should ever use as a rationale to excuse blatant abuse of Executive power.
And that's the point.
What are we more worried about: the big evil that is proceeding systematically, and has become normalized--or the one evil guy? Are we deciding to side with one of those evils? If we're siding against both, what are we siding with?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
"Need to recog this for what it is."
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
@Not Henry Kissinger Joanne has always
Joanne has always been a person of sharp insight.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Yep.
Like to see her post over here once in a while.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
She commented in EB a while back. eom
A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.
Joanne Leon is a member here
but it seems that her main focus is now writing for Shadowproof.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Thanks for the link to the article about this
I hope that people will read it.
The OP asks if the intelligence agencies were monitoring Hillary's phone calls with Israel which we know are famous for interfering with the elections and not only for the presidency. Senators too are watched by Israel or AIPAC and if they don't act the way they want then they spend money on a different candidate.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Heh, this needs to go viral
Isn't McCain one of those who are practically shouting that we need to go after Putin for interfering with the election? He and his sidekick Graham.
And why do those two keep going to Ukraine after the coup? Biden goes there too and one of his sons is on the board of directors of a company that before the coup wasn't allowed to operate there.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
OK
From out of their asses. Did you look at the public report?
Of course there is a justifiable reason: Russian spying.
It's equally justifiable as the reason they spy on us - to protect us from terrorism.
Is either reason anywhere close to being the real, true reason? Bwahahaha! Of course not.
But that's not my point. My point is that there IS a justifiable reason that can be sold in court.
If you are waiting for me to give two shits about Trump's privacy, well, don't hold your breath. The narcissist in chief can take care of himself.
If you think I don't care about the "blanket spying on an uber-Stasi level" in this country, well, let me introduce myself, I'm gjohnsit. You don't seem to be familiar with my writings.
You're missing the point:
Even at the very height of the Cold War, during the very worst and most deadly period of US Soviet relations, it would NEVER have been justifiable (legally or otherwise) for the sitting President of one party to order US intelligence agencies to spy on the other party's Presidential candidate - and especially under some flimsy, unsourced pretext that he's a Russian mole. They of course ran pre-clearances, but that's a whole different (and constitutional) process.
But that's just it. It can't be sold. They already tried to sell that 'justifiable reason' and the even the lapdog FISA court, of all courts, wasn't buying. What more proof do you need that there is no merit to it?
You should care, because if Deep State can do it even to an incoming President, they can do that and far more to all the rest of us.
Politicize the Security Departments is Chapter 1 in How to Be Dictator.
Banana Republic 101 stuff.
How do you not see that?
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
I don't think I am
Read that quoted article again:
First of all, FISA only rejected it the first time because the request was sloppily written and vague. After it was rewritten, it was OK'd (assuming this even happened).
So no, I don't buy your premise.
I think, if it happened it was technically legal. Thus comparisons to Watergate are flawed at the foundation.
This isn't dictator stuff.
They already have every tool they need for that.
This is high-stakes imperial palace power politics. And to be honest, I'm no longer certain the Imperial Praetorian Guard are wrong here.
@gjohnsit Let me be clear
Let me be clear. Are you saying that you agree with Obama setting intelligence agencies to tap the phones of the incoming Administrations (if he even did; my guess is the idea came from them and he just obediently did his part)?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
No, I'm not saying that
Sorry, I wasn't clear.
I was referring to the post-election opposition by the Deep State.
I'm starting to believe that we are seeing a late Roman Empire scenario. The intelligence agencies are reacting to a complete failure of our political system in a way by trying to balance the system. They just have the wrong tools to do it.
Much like the Praetorian Guard when Emperor Caligula went insane. Rome was better off without Caligula, but worse off in the long run with the Deep State calling the shots.
@gjohnsit @Not Henry Kissinger
I get what you're saying now. However, as bad as it was having the Praetorian guard call the shots, at least they were responding, as you say, to a desperate situation in the executive. Whereas here, all indications are that the Praetorian Guard created this desperate situation in the executive by pushing a political strategy that blew up in their faces. The Roman Deep State were, I think, attempting to hold their State (Empire) together--they didn't invent Caligula or put him into power, unless I'm misremembering my Roman history. Here, it is clear that the CIA was behind Clinton and put their eggs in her basket (they weren't the only ones to do that), and thus accepted the Clinton machine's recommendations on using Trump as a foil to essentially strongarm the country into voting for her. Because it blew up in their faces, they're now flailing around trying to fix it with all the tools at their disposal. But they were part of the political coalition that created this situation. And even if I had no other reasons to distrust the CIA, that alone would prevent me from taking their side on, well, anything.
Also, if the United States could survive four years of a President who was suffering from a disabling level of dementia, the United States can survive Trump. That's assuming that the CIA even cares about the survival of this nation-state, which, given who their chosen candidate was, I'm less than sure of.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
gulfgal98 posted the link to this information, dunno if you've seen it yet?
https://shadowproof.com/2017/02/17/next-cold-war-roundup-21717/
So, Donald Trump wants to start firing some of the CIA agents not doing operations because he says the CIA is bloated and inefficient - and he doesn't personally support the planned PTB attack on Russia.
And the reasons given for ordering the last major CIA firing with an incoming President was '...the CIA was bloated and inefficient, that there was a peace dividend because there was no more Soviet Union, and we didn’t need to spend all this money spying on every single country in the world. ...
And, in concert with various PTB and other war profiteers, the CIA is busily pushing for a nuclear attack on Russia, (along with a list of multiple other countries, but beginning specifically with Russia,) to destroy life on the planet in order to 'justify' their jobs?
And, like many others trying to nobble Trump - by using RUSSIA!!!
(Nobody ever seems to use the good reasons to target bad/corrupt politicians... guess they hate to risk it coming out they generally seem to be doing the same/similar things themselves?)
(Linked to the page gulfgal98 linked to here)
https://shadowproof.com/2017/02/17/next-cold-war-roundup-21717/
...
URL given for podcast: https://shadowproof.com/2017/01/25/around-empire-episode-6-inside-cias-w...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Nitpick: Caligula was EARLY Roman Empire
You may possibly be thinking of Commodus, whom Marcus Aurelius should have had fool-killed but could not bring himself to do so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodus
The results of assassinating him were far more disastrous than bumping off Caligula, because there was no "uncle Claudius" to be bullied into succeeding him. (Claudius gets a bad rap, but he was certainly not a fool - he was a very intelligent scholar who sought safety in obscurity, but dealt capably with the limelight when he was forced into it.) The upshot this time was a no-holds-barred war between five candidates, each of whom held the title for a short time before the last survivor, Septimius Severus, having walloped the rest, settled down to rule.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
@TheOtherMaven I like
I like Claudius. But that may be because of Robert Graves--and Derek Jacobi.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The source of the Moon of A. article is the NYT
Isn't NYT the MSM that "no one can believe" and is not supported by most people here?
What irony!
To thine own self be true.
64 WAYS OBAMA IS SABOTAGING TRUMP
Interesting article about why the Obamas's decided to stay in DC after his time in office ended. They told us that they were staying so Malia could stay in her school which might be true, but it isn't the only reason.
I have read that he and the Clintons were going to use their charities to work on getting the democrats back in power.
It's too bad that Obama wasn't concerned about that when he had the opportunity to do something about it . Things like trying to pass legislation that would help main stream Americans during his first two years in congress when he could have even try or fire DWS for losing the House.
But I think that the real reason he's staying there is described in the article.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
The prevailing mood does indicate a violent schism
in the fabric of society. Trump is loved by about half of the people (whether misguided or not) and Obama/Killary are loved by about half of the people. The real merits of either side are cloaked in myths and more lies. But the passion is real. As much as I don't like Trump, I dislike Medusa even more. Trump won fairly, which is more than one can say about Medusa's win over Bernie. This nexus of divide the country activists seems right out of the George Soros playbook. What color will our Revolution be?
Amongst the many glaring and continuing failures of our society, one thing still remains so far: elections. Yes, elections can be and are rigged often. But no substantial charge of foul-play can be reliably be leveled against Red or Blue in 2016.
If we allow the election results to be overthrown by mob or media, then we will have lost EVERYTHING.
@Alligator Ed If Obama/Hillary
If Obama/Hillary are actually loved by 1/2 the people, that's something that's developed after the election. Equally true of Trump.
What actually was true, up till the election, was that Trump was disliked and distrusted by 58% of the population and Hillary by 60%. Obviously there must be some overlap, with some people disliking and distrusting them both, but the polls don't ask that question. Still, there's no way that more than 40% of the population likes or trusts either one of them--and it's probably less.
My guess is that not more than 1/3 of the country has ever loved Trump, and probably less; as for Hillary, I'd bet that the number is more like 1/4, at best.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
You are correct
I did not want to engage in higher mathematics (for me, anyway) in order to keep my comment simple.
@Alligator Ed In other words, if
In other words, if there's a violent schism, it's been manufactured, and since the election.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Precisely.
What color will our Revolution be? White, obviously, for revolt of the Snowflakes unwittingly dragged along by Soros-Saban-Clinton-Obama
@Alligator Ed I thought pink,
I thought pink, for the hats.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Sane Progressive recently discussed
efforts to control presidential elections (via H.R. 634) here:
https://youtu.be/FN-cYCjAAXI
she then describes some recently expanded powers of the Department of Homeland Security in this regard.
nah, snoopydawg, the real scoop here is
redacted.
May God be with you. God willing. I think he is not willing though.
https://www.euronews.com/
Too bad, so sad, Mr. O
If you gave a fart in a hurricane about your "legacy", you would never have agreed to appoint HER as Secretary of State, anoint HER as your chosen successor, and campaign for HER to try to make it happen.
You made that bed, YOU sleep on it.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
@snoopydawg
Obama was supposed to go to Silicon Valley to become a hedge fund manager, yet starting his new job is delayed to - fight the hedge fund billionaire who, it's said, helped Trump get elected?
If this really is the Battle of the Hedge Fund Giants on which the fate of the world depends, I want a lot of very heavily buttered popcorn with lots of salt, while I'm still around to enjoy it.
(Edit to make the point that Mercer - TPP-not-liking Donald Trump's bestie billionaire supporter - does not like the TPP, which Obama is still attempting to have shoved past carefully ignored Constitutional protections, and from which sell-off of America and the world I suspect billionaire wanna-be Obama expects to make a lot of money from and upon which his lucrative new hedge-fund career and perhaps much of his capital? may depend. That's with my speculators on, of course.)
Jotted this down last night, very rough notes - sorta barely edited a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQUkaEVe7II
(Jotting down bits from video, tired and can hardly see - accuracy may not be achieved.)
Robert Mercer - hedge fund manager making astonishing profits; supported Ted Cruz, then was asked to support Trump. Gave him millions but also a ready-to-go ginormous electoral machine. Bannon and Conway, David Bossey head of Citizen's United, which Mercer funded, among others; Mercer's wife on Trump's transition team, (plans to pollute and depopulate North America, although this is my impression and may not be what was intentionally implied by the narrator. )
Andrew Breitbart also connected. Bannon, Peter Schweizer and Breitbart want to pump their media/ideology into America's culture to channel rage into a force with which to storm Washington, first w/Tea Party (no mention of Koch brothers?) then with Trump.
Koch brothers and Mercer among big funders of Citizen United, which funds Trump. CU was started in 1988 to create a pro-corporate 'far-right' atmosphere in American society, to shape America. 2010, Mercer moved beyond CU, Breitbart was sued for faked slanderous video but continued making propaganda and dies from heart attack at 43 - was considered a 'moderate conservative' and his loss as a blessing in disguise because he was considered 'too conservative'. Had been on Drudge Report and did research for Huffington Post. So Bannon Mercer and Schweizer take over, start the Government Accountability Institute; Mercer top funder, Bannon on the Board, this at the time of Obama/Romney's electoral race. (Bannon spent 15.5 million on Trump, apart from massive other assistance, and 13 million on Cruz before that.)
After the election, Rebecca Mercer, Mercer's daughter stepped into the ring, into her father's think tanks and foundations. Mercer did not like TPP, which Cruz supported. Mercer loves computers, being alone with them, air-conditioned air, whirring noises... bet he supports the Google cyborg/robot replacement of humanity.
Mercer has mastered quantitative trading, which makes billionaires somewhat richer but creates no actual value. (This would come from the losses of smaller investors, of course.) Most major donors are billionaires created by gaming the system/gambling-related activities.
Propaganda is useful to demonize any who would regulate or speak against their methods of making money via methods adding no value to society.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I think Larry Johnson has the right take on it.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9M5HlzCulc]
And I agree, it is a big deal.
native
Doesn't he know
that everyone's phone calls and emails are scooped up?
Denial. It's everywhere.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
@Pluto's Republic Agreed on the denial,
Agreed on the denial, but feel the need to say, in all fairness: if true, sounds like this was a bit more targeted than the usual scoop.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It's all scooped up in full, and sent to Utah
Everything that every single human says and does and looks at and listens to and buys and types and reads. Plus all their relationships and connections to any other humans in the world. And so much more.
But the data is not analyzed. Technology at that scale does not yet exist. That's why they cannot stop a terrorist attack, even when another nation sends them a warning. What you call "targeting" is when they go back and analyze someone's lived life stored in Utah. That's the imperious hand they play against Trump.
As an aside, the only important technological race going on in the world is the race for conscious artificial intelligence. That is the kind of breakthrough that will allow the Utah data to rule the world via full awareness of every human's life as it is lived, complete with predictive analysis. Right now, China is way ahead of the pack. They have the world's fastest computers and currently crunch numbers five times faster than the US. That has allowed them to flip to quantum encryption, which they are using in space. They are opaque to us. Their weapons development is screaming beyond ours. To me it's clear that Trump has been briefed on this. All his decisions since taking office reflect this in an exaggerated fashion — the Neocon cabinet, the military spending increases on Navy and nukes, his hostility to China, hard-core immigration panic, the sudden deep bonding with Israel, the rabid Iran psychosis. It's even more apparent in the pricey "concerns" being back-burnered: military aircraft boondoggles, pretending China is a currency manipulator, emergency trade agreements to boost corporate sovereignty, global warming, Supreme Court angst, and economic reforms of every stripe. The priorities changed abruptly.
Even his supporters are confused.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
@Pluto's Republic
Making it obvious that this exists only to be used by the government against the population, in defiance of Constitutional and other protections...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Uh...
After Nixon '68 and Reagan '80, I would wiretap every Presidential candidate - especially Republicans.
But as for Trump's claim that it's "Nixon/Watergate bad" uh, actually yes. Government records released by the Obama administration show that Watergate happened because Nixon took a couple of bribes and was afraid the McGovern campaign knew. Trump was being accused, by the (inevitable) Clinton Administration, of daring to stand in the way of Her Imperial Supremeness' divine ascension to the Peacock Feather and Lion Skin Throne, therefore he must be a Russian agent. Both are cases of petty personal ambition and paranoia superseding democracy. And it is definitely an appeal to McCarthyism. Even the FISA court got that. It was almost certainly the only wiretap application they denied that year.
On to Biden since 1973
The tapping isn't McCarthyism
it's more like J Edgar Hooverism. But there's plenty of McCarthyism about, much of it directed at Donald and his supporters, so I'm not surprised he used the word. Precision isn't one of his virtues.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I wonder who will be calling the shots the next years,
Obama or Trump. There is obviously some power struggle going on up there, and I'm not sure what the score it.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
@dkmich The Deep State is unsure
The Deep State is unsure about whether or not it should pursue a course of global thermonuclear war.
That's why Trump is still there at all. But there's a lot more power on the Clinton/Bush side, also known as the PNAC side, the neoliberal side, the neoconservative side, and the Apocalypse Party.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Heh.
A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.
@divineorder Democrats criticized
Democrats criticized Trump for not offering evidence?
Pot, meet kettle.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
WTF?
Christ on a cracker, does nobody believe in representative democracy any more?
I don't like the guy any more than you do, but he won the election. How are you OK with the unelected security services trying to overturn it?
Scratch that: what good do you think could possibly come from rooting for a coup?
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
Everyone is selling out
…the "bright shining city on a hill" these days. And the precioussss constitution.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
@Not Henry Kissinger Let's put it differently:
Let's put it differently: What possible good does gjohnsit think could come from supporting a CIA-sponsored coup?
You're seriously contemplating getting on the same side as the CIA? Please give your reasons.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
What makes you think the CIA is going to win?
The CIA has a loooonnnggg record of losing, and generally fucking up.
Plus, Trump is known for his vindictiveness.
If the CIA overplays its hand enough, Trump just might take steps to cut back on the power of the Deep State.
I can see this outcome to be significantly possible.
And while Trump is battling the Deep State he isn't gutting the social safety net.
@Not Henry Kissinger I guess that is kind of
I guess that is kind of what you were saying, but I wanted to emphasize, not just the attack on democracy/police state aspect of it, but what the CIA has done since it was invented.
If I have to, I'll go and make a list of the assassinations and coups they are responsible for, starting with Allende.
If we're on their side because we don't like Trump, we might as well quit and grow tomatoes.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The War comes home...
Here you go:
Nearly 60 - about a third of all countries world wide.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
@Not Henry Kissinger Thank you. But don't
Thank you. But don't we need an update on Honduras? That seems to have gone well for the CIA. And their best buddy, Hillary.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Guatemala & El Salvador
would also have been a lot less bloody without our constant meddling.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
But you left out the best part from your citation
Never say never...
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
There is a possible silver-lining here
Just like the 2016 election exposed the corruption of the Democratic Party and the media establishment, this overreach by the Deep State has a chance of exposing how the MIC is far too powerful.
We are looking at this from two different perspectives.
You see the efforts of the Deep State to undermine Trump as the problem.
I see it as a symptom of an already existing problem.
@gjohnsit I now understand where
I now understand where you're coming from. But they are using the press to turn the Deep State "face;" in other words, because they oppose Trump, they're now the good guys, and they've got 4/5 of the media parroting that nonstop.
I am concerned about the effect of that propaganda, especially the long-term effects.
But I certainly hope you're right.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
No.
The undermining is to be expected.
The problem is how easily even smart, well meaning people succumb to such blatant manipulation.
Don't be one of them.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
At least maybe there is a PSA here. We are spied on by us.
Invasion of privacy? Likely. And it will never amount to anything. But it might. For what? No terror attacks can be documented to have been halted by this massive scoop. Only vague references to a few things ever released. Basically a fail. Waste of taxpayer dollars.
But should one happen to get on Someone's Shitlist, who knows? Saying something negative about a person in power (voted in)? Neighbor works for an alphabet group and is vague about what they do for a living and your dog barks too much for them? Kaboom!
I have mostly given up, and do not talk about violence or bombing on the phone at all. And I am not a hateful or violent person.
[Dan Coats, the Pence force is strong. He may be POTUS soon. I do not see him as another Cheney.]
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Like I Said... Dirty Hay On Individual Needles.
Our domestic spying apparatus is terrible for finding the needle in the haystack.
It is, however, terrific on finding dirty hay on particular individual needles, though.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
I don't think many people are
I don't think many people are thinking about the Constitution, whether in power or out. Perhaps the Trump supporters are; nobody else is.
And as I've said elsewhere, I'm not sure why the Constitution, particularly, is your focus. We obviously don't follow it anyway.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Looks like a coming civil war in Deep State which may escalate.
I imagine that Trump and his cronies may eventually get a handle/control on various organizations there will be payback? There was the beginning of violence in the streets during the election. It seems Trump rallies are met by counter protesters, and some violent incident always happens. The first protests in Portland right after the election results were *I believe characterized as terrorist acts by the authorities.