Echo Chamber Fail: "Sanders voters moving to Clinton much faster than Clinton voters moved to Obama"

With the aid of my friend Adblock, I decided for first time in weeks to wander over to TOP today to see what noxious and irrational anti-Progressive memes were being pushed today.

Note: Please do NOT click on this link unless you have the Adblock extension activated in your browser. I don't want to give any monetized clicks to a guy who already made $450k selling user data to the DNC/establishment, per FEC records.

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/6/27/1542821/-Sanders-voters-moving...

In this attempt at persuasive writing, this user named "Mark Sumner" cobbles together a weak sauce argument for the Hillary echo chamber that purports to show that Bernie supporters are coalescing behind Clinton. A very odd argument, since it doesn't match what I'm seeing or the currently available polls. Mark SUmner purports to show that Sanders voters are moving to Hillary, but he uses a misleading poll that instead simply shows Sanders voters are rejecting Trump at increasingly high rates. But just because they are rejecting Trump doesn't mean they are flocking to Hillary. It could also mean they are going to Johnson, Stein, a write-in, or skipping the Presidential ballot slot.

Should we burst their bubble? Probably not. Better to let their echo chamber keep its echoing. Meanwhile, the fact that independent voters exceed self-identified Democrats by double-digits tell you who is really 'relevant' and who is 'irrelevant', and Hillary might be the least 'relevant' Democrat Party presumptive nominee in modern history. Not only are her unfavorables sky-high, but also the following:

Bernie's favorables still beat the living shit out of Hillary's
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/bernie-sanders-favorable-ra...
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-r...

Only 55% percent of Sanders supporters are behind Hillary according to Bloomberg. Humorously enough, Bloomberg intentionally labels the 55% figure as representative of "most" Sanders supporters. I guess at their journalism school, 55% equates to "most".

After weeks of a Clinton-surrogate effort, in conjunction with corporate media, to pressure Sanders to bow out, it seems that the talking heads are dropping their feigned ignorance about "what Bernie wants." Only after an entire month of patiently explaining to the willingly-ignorant Clinton shills that he is leading a movement and not simply an election campaign, and that he wants to take the fight to the convention, has the chrous of "drop out Bernie' trolls died down.

Sadly, even respected figures like Colbert were on the anti-Bernie hype train recently, although in his most recent appearance on Colbert, Sanders was given the chance to give a full-throated defense of his fight and ended the interview with some strong statements that Colbert didn't challenge. Perhaps Colbert has softened a bit, but then again, the pro-Hillary crowd has smugly entrenched themselves in their belief that Hillary has all but won the game.

To be fair, I have posted here and elsewhere -repeatedly- that Trump is quite unlikely to win in November, and I maintained my position on that even during the temporary May polling bumps for Trump.

The false narrative that Clintonistas want to infect our national discourse with is the idea that nothing else matters besides talking about beating Trump. They've discarded the entire progressive ( 'progressive') platform of the Left in order to push a single meme: if you don't vote for Hillary, then you are in love with the idea of electing Trump. An extremely stupid and anti-intellectual meme, to be sure, but it is the one they cynically believe is most effective in smearing anyone who does not want to vote for Hillary (a strong majority of Americans, it's worth noting).

When asked to choose between Clinton, Trump, the Libertarian Party candidate Gary Johnson, and the Green Party candidate Jill Stein, only 57 percent of Sanders supporters said they would back Clinton

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/bernie-or-bust-clint...

Meanwhile, the Clinton neoliberals continue to drag the carcass of the Democrat Party through the mud:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article8538...

A top aide to then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton appeared to mock the appointment of a major Democratic donor with little experience to a sensitive government intelligence board allowing him the highest levels of top secret access.

Rajiv Fernando, who contributed to Clinton, her family’s foundation and Barack Obama, was named to the International Security Advisory Board in 2011, though he resigned days later after his appointment was questioned.

“Couldn’t he have landed a spot on the President’s Physical Fitness Council?” Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Philippe Reines wrote in a State Department email in 2012 to two other Clinton aides.

...

“Should Hillary Clinton become president, the Clinton Foundation would be a hot mess of real and potential conflicts of interest,” said Meredith McGehee, policy director at the Campaign Legal Center, a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization.

Over at TOP there's plenty of shills running around insisting breathlessly that the Clinton Foundation is a pure, unblemished charity that only exists to help the world. It is entirely possible that some Clintonistas are naive enough to buy into this false narrative, despite the Clinton fanbase being so adamant that they are the 'pragmatic' ones and Bernie people are the 'idealists'. You'd have to be born yesterday to actually think the Clinton foundation's activities are all above water, when even the foundation itself has admitted to filing misleading financial disclosures. Let's not mention how Clinton's visitors' log as SoS was conveniently missing entries for major Foundation donors who came to visit her as SoS.

Even the AP reported on this...the same AP that helped coronate Hillary before the CA primary:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/858997d5d9a540688d316654a5bb0c15/clintons...

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i'm not a fan of memes-- either the original definition of memes set forth by Lakoff, or the current definition of memes (pictures with a few lines of text superimpoed). At least the former allow for some level of complexity and nuance, and are an inescapable component of public discourse and debate. The latter tend to be great for overly simplistic arguments and rhetorical deceit.

But the most useful meme to rally behind this year is the following:
both parties are corrupt and beyond saving. This must be said over and over again. The credibility of the Democrat party must be attacked and attacked , relentlessly. This must be done to the point that today's youth don't associate the Dem party with the word "progressive", but instead see it as yet another bloated, sellout institution that is part of the problem. This meme needs to be pushed over and over again so that the framing of the Democrat party is set firmly enough in the national conversation so as to prevent the neoliberals from their Orwellian neoliberalism-as-progressivism campaign. Recently, I took some TOP front pagers to task on twitter for their faux outrage over the reports that Clinton might select a GOP pol as her VP. I kind of doubt that she would, but I hope she does: it totally exposes the neoliberal lie for what it is.

The Democrats and the GOP cannot be saved . Even bernie tacitly acknowledged this in his recent cspan interview where he said the two ways that we get change is Democrats either need to be reformed, or a "third party". He did say the words third party. The point here is to undermine the popular myth that progressive change must go through the Democrat party as gatekeeper. It may be more convenient to attempt to use the Democrat party- after all, Bernie did run as a Dem and not Indie in the primary- but it is unhealthy to just assume that everything must go through them. We have to keep all options on the table, even though no endgame seems readily apparent for a third party.

I spend almost a decade trying to defend Democrats from a 'false equivalence'. I even criticized jon stewart many times for saying the democrats and GOP were way too similar in their corruption. Turns out, he was right and I was wrong. I'm obliged to reference my hidden comments on TOP after Stewart interviewed with david axelrod at their university podcast-- stewart was right in calling both parties in DC beyond corrupt and declaring that Hillary "lacks the conviction" to match her public positions/rhetoric.

I'm constantly reminding Bernie fans on his FB page that it's too late for him to run 3rd party, but I admire the passion and engagement of the online Sanders social media community.

as someone who for years tried to defend Democrats, I now have a moral obligation to call them out repeatedly for their corruption and their astroturfing. We cannot let David brock and his correct the record trolls win, and they aren't so far. It's tough to predict what the future holds for our moral campaign to overcome the corrupt two party system, but fight we must.

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did 9 months in California prison, because Neoliberal Democrats and GOP maggots work together to profit off the drug war

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/6/22/1541594/-My-god-if-you-are-any...

again-- make sure you have adblock enabled before clicking.

as shitty as that diary is, the faux outrage contained within it is a welcome sign that the "both parties are corrupt" meme is alive and well. The sad attempt by WaPo shills like Dave Weigel to 'counteract' the organic messaging of millions of skeptical Americans is too transparent. Every time a corporate pundit declares impotently on their irrelevant print media op-ed that the "rigged primary" and "both parties are corrupt" memes are so so terribly wrong and unfair!!11!!! ......well, that means the dominant narrative is that the primaries were corrupted and neither party can be trusted. That's a silver lining amidst the clusterfuck that is a primary process in which the California primary votes STILL aren't counted!! (but it's cool to see that counties in CA are being flipped to bernie every week still as more votes are counted).

https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/4pa71m/major_cali_...

in case you didn't see it, Bernie wrote a piece for the NYT today

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/opinion/campaign-stops/bernie-sanders-...

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did 9 months in California prison, because Neoliberal Democrats and GOP maggots work together to profit off the drug war

lunachickie's picture

from top to bottom. But I have to say, of all the things to love, the best part is the whole "oh, by the way, Sanders wrote this op-ed for the NYT" (which is dated tomorrow, I should note--make your screenshots now, heh). I would have had to make a separate post Smile

Anyway, what he doesn't say is as important than what he does say. What he doesn't say: the word "Clinton", which is always refreshing. What he does say is this:

The notion that Donald Trump could benefit from the same forces that gave the Leave proponents a majority in Britain should sound an alarm for the Democratic Party in the United States.

Here's the problem, Bernie: The alarms have been going off for awhile, and the Democratic Party in the United States actively refuses to listen to them. They will not, and it is a deplorable situation, I will not support that woman under any circumstances, even if it means bigotry and hate ends up winning-because that will not change under a Clinton presidency anyway. The haters and the bigots aren't going away. But I'm not picking her over that. Fuck her, she's the one that sells out the United States of America to that damnable TPP, for starters, and I will not vote for that. I will not. And I am not alone. They have got to understand that, or we are going to risk having a President Trump.

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Alphalop's picture

up like that.

Let it out, no need to wear kidd gloves when talking about her royal lowness. Wink

J/k for the snark impaired, that was one righteous rant.

I am much more comfortable with the idea of a President Trump that I didn't vote for than a President Clinton that I did.

It's as simple as your ABC's...

Anyone
But
Clinton.

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

lunachickie's picture

Yeah, I know. I'm kinda emphatic like that in real life, too. Firm and committed. Or is that should be firmly committed? Wink

Anyway, I can't stress the concept of a Clinton vote and how it's #NotGonnaHappen enough, because it's obvious to me that Sanders has been flat-out muzzled to a certain extent, given the things he isn't saying lately that he was saying as recently as a month ago. And that's some bullshit, there...

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Amanda Matthews's picture

those of us who are changing our party affiliation from Democrat to Independent or Green all do it on the same day?

Not only would there no longer be any question that the party has gone too far right for many of us, but they can look at those numbers and know that those are people who will never again contribute to the party bank balance.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

It made me go look up Adam McCauley, good stuff I like it. Visual! It is why I love OPOL's flickr page too: one_pissed_off_liberal Hah! And I was just reading about how low voters are that respond to visual stimuli like that, well call me a dummy there's plenty of us. Peace

Adam McCauley Unpatriotic Inversion
unpatriotic inversion

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Pluto's Republic's picture

Your proposed meme bears repeating:

...both parties are corrupt and beyond saving. This must be said over and over again. The credibility of the Democrat party must be attacked and attacked , relentlessly. This must be done to the point that today's youth don't associate the Dem party with the word "progressive", but instead see it as yet another bloated, sellout institution that is part of the problem.

Both parties are depraved morally and are beyond redemption. The parties have raced each other to the bottom of the dustbin.

This is a truth that must emerge whenever the topic is discussed.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

some people , at various points in recent decades, came to the conclusion that both parties are the same without much analysis or critical reasoning. On reddit, for instance, I've seen plenty of hipster contrarians bash both parties as "the same" simply so they can look like a noble contrarian. I clashed with these people and called them out a lot for their intellectual dishonesty.

but whether you come to the conclusion that both parties are corrupt through years of activism and critical reasoning, or come to it by being a contrarian, the truth doth remaind: they're both rotten.

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did 9 months in California prison, because Neoliberal Democrats and GOP maggots work together to profit off the drug war

Alphalop's picture

there can be no doubt that they have one major theme in common.

They are both utterly corrupt at the core.

One is just also corrupt on the outside too, but that doesn't really matter that much, because either way I ain't taking a bite of that apple.

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

Pluto's Republic's picture

…of the differences between the two Parties, or the intellectual dishonesty will defeat us.

Of course the Parties are not the same! By design. Good cop bad cop is what keeps the kabuki alive and the people divided. At least in these latter days.

The natural binary division in societies has always been with us. On one side of the scale is the "individual" and on the side is the "social obligation." Capital and labor, the one or the many, the interplay is endless. The parties and their policies play off of this divide. Neither side has the ultimate answer because they are interdependent.

But I am tired of this simple-minded kabuki. The line was crossed in the US after WWII when war and defense suddenly became a profitable money machine. That is the evil we've lived in since, these are the issues that game us, via domestic propaganda. If we accept this binary absolutism in our political thinking and cling to its manifestation in the unholy duopoly of the Parties, then our government is dangerously primitive and should not released in this world at all.

We must demand more voices and more nuanced representation with multi-party alliances that faithfully represent the complexity of our points-of-view. It's much too late for incremental change. We live in the time of Now.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
shaharazade's picture

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http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/hillary-clinton-2016-demo...

A carbon tax? Voted down 7-6 (one of the DNC delegates voted with each side). A ban on fracking? Voted down 7-6. An effort to keep fossils in the ground, at least on federal land? Voted down 7-6. A measure to mandate that federal agencies weigh the climate impact of their decisions? Voted down 7-6. Even a plan to keep fossil fuel companies from taking private land by eminent domain, voted down 7-6.

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did 9 months in California prison, because Neoliberal Democrats and GOP maggots work together to profit off the drug war

terriertribe's picture

That happens.

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Now interviewing signature candidates. Apply within.

Hawkfish's picture

The oppose statement was written by a bunch of Democratic Party insiders.

Our web site is here. I hope to write something more substantial once the kids are at camp.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Bollox Ref's picture

Over at TOP there's plenty of shills running around insisting breathlessly that the Clinton Foundation is a pure, unblemished charity that only exists to help the world. It is entirely possible that some Clintonistas are naive enough to buy into this false narrative, despite the Clinton fanbase being so adamant that they are the 'pragmatic' ones and Bernie people are the 'idealists'. You'd have to be born yesterday to actually think the Clinton foundation's activities are all above water, when even the foundation itself has admitted to filing misleading financial disclosures. Let's not mention how Clinton's visitors' log as SoS was conveniently missing entries for major Foundation donors who came to visit her as SoS.

That place is worthless, ridden with paid shills, much like the tower block of paid hacks in Moscow that Putin uses to push back in Western media sources. The Cackle Channel is just a paid for lie.

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Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

lunachickie's picture

just reading your post about that place.

I seem to have broken the spell. I can't even go there, it's so fake and disgusting and arrogant.

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First and biggest is paying any attention to what you read on dailyClinton. It is a PR firm for the Clinton campaign. Second mistake is giving too much credance to Clinton's msm.

Hope these numbers make you feel better. There are groups out there that intend to fight. They are planning on Bernie supporters to fund a campaign against Hillary if she is the candidate. Taking a page from Norquist and the Tea Party, they are going to hold the Clintons and the DLC wing accountalble for stealing the election and lying.

A few months ago, polls indicated 25-33% of Sanders' supporters will not vote for Secretary Clinton in November. Last Wednesday, a poll conducted by Bloomberg revealed that 45% Sanders supporters will, under no circumstances, vote for Hillary Clinton. A more obscure poll conducted by SurveyUSA on June 10th found "Of those who vote for Sanders when Sanders' name appears on the ballot [only] 41% [will] vote for Clinton." That's 59% of Sanders' supporters who will not vote for Secretary Clinton in the general election. While they are not in sync as to whom they will vote for, one thing is clear; the Bernie or bust movement is growing. The question is, will the superdelegates, who vote during the Convention next month, take this into consideration when they finally cast their decisive votes?

http://www.examiner.com/article/bernie-or-bust-movement-is-growing-and-w...

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Pluto's Republic's picture

…that party will be forever shattered for picking a candidate that the body politic despised. The Party that savagely cheated its members during the Primaries should be shattered by its voters. Time is short.

Of course Bernie Sanders and his supporters will be blamed. They will also be the powerful ones. It is they, alone, who are in touch with the future. You will wear the Badge of Honor for rescuing this nation from Neoliberal slime trying to enrich themselves off the toiling backs of humanity.

It is your job to make sure that Hillary Clinton loses the election by making sure someone else wins. Yep it's a tough one. Are you up to a sacrifice that really means something?

If you believe in what we are talking about here, don't waste your vote on someone who cannot win.

Do you have what it takes? Don't hang a murderous war criminal like Hillary around our necks.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

Now only do we need to destroy their candidate and fake "working man's party", we need take the credit for it. A page right out of Norquist's playbook.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

in unrelated stuff, can anyone tell me how one changes their signature on here?

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did 9 months in California prison, because Neoliberal Democrats and GOP maggots work together to profit off the drug war

click the "My Account" link at the top of the page and then click "Edit". That will take you to your user account page where you can change or add a lot of stuff including your signature.

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Lenzabi's picture

Sample sizes

The sample size of the polls would be interesting to see how many hundred people the news org asked, making the true tack of the poll that 55% of Bernie supporters that they bothered to ask were going Clinton? But they failed to reach out to the Majority of actual Bernie supporters beyond some small and sad sample size.

Why do I say such a thing? Because the MSM are lazy, over-paid and lack common sense when it comes to anything beyond the scripts and story-lines that are to be pushed by the corporate bosses.

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So long, and thanks for all the fish

riverlover's picture

It would appear (how's that for a passive phrase?) that there was an initial slouch after MSM went full-on the Hillary had it clinched, and now a tightening of resolve that Most Sanders Supporters Will Not Vote for Hillary. Guaranteed. And that if we cannot take over the Democratic Party then they are dead to us.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

LeChienHarry's picture

Left wing of the Democratic Party, the Independents and non-affilliated are doing now. And where Bernie is in all this. We are getting more of a picture. You have confirmed the answer I was given by Lookout in another thread because of all the noise and chattering I am seeing/hearing.

A way forward is still unclear, but I did learn some interesting points:

I'll take a stab at your question.

No consensus on Bernie. I suspect he's awaiting the FBI, email leaks, DNC suit, election fraud suit,..... He has not conceded nor endorsed the $hill.

I'm not holding my breath but I do think waiting till the convention is necessary and will take patience. I hope Bernie will come out strong on election fraud at the convention.

It looks like the green party is on 22 state ballots and working on others http://www.gp.org/ballotaccess

Here's what I found on write-ins:

Currently, 43 States allow Write In Ballots for President of the United States.

States not allowing write in ballots include; Arkansas, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, Oklahoma, South Dakota

Most States require a candidate to register, however; Vermont, Wyoming, Oregon, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Iowa, Delaware, and Alabama do not require registration.

Thirty-five states require that a write-in candidate must submit some form of affidavit and, sometimes, a filing fee at least one month before the election. In North Carolina, these candidates must circulate a petition. Then their names are posted on a list at the polling place, though not on the official ballot. All other write-in votes are tossed.

~Bloomberg

From my view, no one knows what will happen in this crazy cycle.

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You may choose to look the other way, but you can never say again you did not know. ~ William Wiberforce

If you can donate, please! POP Money is available for bank-to-bank transfers. Email JtC to make a monthly donation.

bernie is being patient and biding his time whie all this events play out. of course, the MSM wants what they want and they want instant gratification and ratings. Bernie isn't following their script and it's pissing them off.

but it's no foregone conclusion the FBI will be able to shake the boat. they are fallible. Regardless, bernie is doing the right thing here.

I don't think reality is what interests establishment democrats right now....they are simply frustrated that their queen hillary had to even fight to win the nomination, and they project their frustration at bernie.

there does seem to be a consensus growing that bernie won the future of the party. bill maher drove that point home this month.

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did 9 months in California prison, because Neoliberal Democrats and GOP maggots work together to profit off the drug war

sojourns's picture

the two parties are exactly what is meant by the old adage, "Two sides of the same coin."

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

Lenzabi's picture

As I see it

the two parties are exactly what is meant by the old adage, "Two sides of the same coin."
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I started years ago to call it the "two-face party"

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So long, and thanks for all the fish