Don't feed the Trolls

Submitted by Arrow on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 11:11am

I'm highlighting Caitlen Johnstone's latest essay because it amplifies A comment I made yesterday about progressive progress coming from outside the Duopoly and it's political 'process'.
You look at all the 'outrage' at an easy despicable caricature that is Trump. It is much about nothing really. Except maybe the 'outraged' feeling good and morally superior about themselves. There is no need to debate these people about Russia! Russia! Russia!. That's like debating 'How many Putins can dance on the head of a pin?'.
Here's the money quote from Caitlen:

There are no political solutions to any of these problems. There are no political solutions to any of your problems. If you choose to keep trying to advance a pro-peace, pro-justice agenda via political means, I think that has value, but only for the purpose of gathering information to let everyone really grok the reality that all the doors they’re trying are bolted shut. Every political path you take will be obstructed and stagnated by the servants of the ruling class for far longer than our species has left to avert nuclear and climate catastrophe.

Read the whole thing here:
https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/dont-feed-the-trolls-stop-arguing-abo...

Tags:

#don'tfeedthetrolls #Kamalaharriswhocares

Vote

Comments

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 11:25am

Does one get the feeling of impending doom?

I do. The fuckers in WDC just want to fuck with people like a cat throwing a mouse in the air a few times to make it think it's got a chance to get away. Of course, then the cat eats the mouse, head first!

Submitted by Arrow on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 11:35am

They're just channeling

@Alligator Ed people into unproductive paths. Dead-ends. Nothing more.
A new Peace Movement is long over due. Your pessimism is well founded.
The key is to not give up. Giving up is what they want.

—

I want a Pony!

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 1:43pm

I ain't giving up.

@Arrow That's why I go to Town Halls and needle the wusses.

https://caucus99percent.com/content/another-ca-dim-who-against-single-payer-or-another-coward-backing-aca

http://caucus99percent.com/content/meeting-my-assemblyman-gimme-three-steps

Submitted by Arrow on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 5:14pm

Ed I should have

@Alligator Ed used the plural 'we'. All of us need to focus on the issues. Votes like 98-2 for sanctions show you were things really stand politically.

—

I want a Pony!

Submitted by HenryAWallace on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 8:03pm

Bernie and Rand

@Arrow

Submitted by gjohnsit on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 1:14pm

If someone wants to call "bullsht" on pure bullsht

then let them.
No harm is done.

Submitted by mhagle on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 3:03pm

Really liked the article . . .

Caitlen Johnstone's stuff is always so good.

I took it to mean "don't give up, but don't play their game or play by their rules."

Thanks!

—

Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

Submitted by native on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 3:30pm

The problem with focusing so much outrage

on Donald Trump is that in doing so, Democrats are playing to the hand of the worst and most dangerous neoconservative elements in the US government. They are in effect, joining forces with a powerful coterie of militaristic imperialists, whose goal is to reinforce America's fading status as global hegemon.

Trump's desire to form a more amicable (and reasonable) relationship with Russia flies directly in the face of this longstanding neoconservative objective. It could in fact, severely damage the entire neocon project if it were to succeed -- which is why it cannot, and probably will not be allowed to succeed.

Democrats seem to be willfully ignoring the motivations and intentions of the prime players with whom they have allied themselves, in their enthusiasm to endorse the anti-Trump campaign. It is Trump's right-wing domestic agenda that inspires most of the Democrats' antipathy to him, antipathy that IMO is fully justified. But to simply ignore the clear evidence of their collusion with shadowy deep state actors and institutions, (including a majority of msm) who are all participating in anti-Russia propaganda, and who are all gunning for Trump, is to overlook at least half of what is actually going on.

—

native

Submitted by Centaurea on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 8:28pm

Like engaging with an abuser

From Caitlin's latest article:

Please don’t feed the trolls, America. These pundits are going out of their way to tell you that their party will ignore its progressive base in 2020 because that is exactly what is going to happen. That’s all you need to know. Don’t get sucked into trying to debate them, don’t try to work toward a compromise, don’t try to change them; it will only grind you down and wear you out while the thugs who have hijacked your country tighten the noose around your neck.

The best analogy I can come up with is being in an abusive relationship with a personality-disordered person.

By definition, personality-disordered people (who are often narcissists) are incapable of self-awareness and will resist change to the death. In their distorted worldview, nothing is ever their fault. It's always everyone else who's to blame. It's a very skewed and dysfunctional way of perceiving and interacting with the world around them.

Someone here at c99 recently posted a Jimmy Dore interview with Thomas Frank, in which Frank said that the Dem establishment types, such as Chuck Schumer, simply are not able to change. Even if they begin to realize that things need changing, they are just not able to take action accordingly. I don't know whether the Dem establishment types are personality-disordered, but in many ways their collective behavior rings a loud bell.

One common characteristic of an abused partner is to try over and over ad nauseum and ad infinitum to reason with their partner, to get the disordered person to hear them and to understand them. But as long as they keep trying to reach the disordered abuser, as long as they remain engaged on the abuser's playing field, they're doomed. They're stuck. They cannot move on with their own life, creating the kind of life they want. They longer they stay, the more beaten down and traumatized they become.

The only way to deal with an abusive relationship is to disengage from their game. Leave, and take the kids with you. Move on. Define your own rules and create the life (the world!) that you want, rather than trying to reach someone who is utterly incapable of hearing.

I understand the emotional desire to get the Dems to open their eyes and hear us, but I think Caitlin's right on with this. Progressives need to stop trying to convince the Dem establishment of anything. Trying to reach the Dems is a major energy drain. Instead, get our act together, decide what we want, and start taking action to make it happen.

—

"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 8:28pm

@Centaurea This is, for various

@Centaurea This is, for various reasons, a really helpful comment to me right now. Thank you, Centaurea.

From Caitlin's latest article: Please don’t feed the trolls, America. These pundits are going out of their way to tell you that their party will ignore its progressive base in 2020 because that is exactly what is going to happen. That’s all you need to know. Don’t get sucked into trying to debate them, don’t try to work toward a compromise, don’t try to change them; it will only grind you down and wear you out while the thugs who have hijacked your country tighten the noose around your neck. The best analogy I can come up with is being in an abusive relationship with a personality-disordered person. By definition, personality-disordered people (who are often narcissists) are incapable of self-awareness and will resist change to the death. In their distorted worldview, nothing is ever their fault. It's always everyone else who's to blame. It's a very skewed and dysfunctional way of perceiving and interacting with the world around them. Someone here at c99 recently posted a Jimmy Dore interview with Thomas Frank, in which Frank said that the Dem establishment types, such as Chuck Schumer, simply are not able to change. Even if they begin to realize that things need changing, they are just not able to take action accordingly. I don't know whether the Dem establishment types are personality-disordered, but in many ways their collective behavior rings a loud bell. One common characteristic of an abused partner is to try over and over ad nauseum and ad infinitum to reason with their partner, to get the disordered person to hear them and to understand them. But as long as they keep trying to reach the disordered abuser, as long as they remain engaged on the abuser's playing field, they're doomed. They're stuck. They cannot move on with their own life, creating the kind of life they want. They longer they stay, the more beaten down and traumatized they become. The only way to deal with an abusive relationship is to disengage from their game. Leave, and take the kids with you. Move on. Define your own rules and create the life (the world!) that you want, rather than trying to reach someone who is utterly incapable of hearing. I understand the emotional desire to get the Dems to open their eyes and hear us, but I think Caitlin's right on with this. Progressives need to stop trying to convince the Dem establishment of anything. Trying to reach the Dems is a major energy drain. Instead, get our act together, decide what we want, and start taking action to make it happen.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Centaurea on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 9:06pm

Glad it was helpful

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Glad it was helpful to you, CSMS. I'm speaking from personal experience, so I recognize it when I see it. Another way to put it is:

Take our power back. Stop granting the Dem establishment any authority over what we do or say or think.

—

"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

Submitted by lotlizard on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 9:36pm

I believe it was you, CSt[M]S, who at some point mentioned

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
running into denial and accusations of racism, upon trying to get people to acknowledge that a root cause of unsustainability is population growth.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rethinking-population-contr...

The outrage evoked by [French president Emmanuel] Macron’s remark, however, appears to have little to do with its inaccuracy. Macron violated a taboo that has been in place since the International Conference on Population and Development, held under the auspices of the UN in Cairo in 1994. The conference adopted a Programme of Action that rejected a demographically driven approach to population policies, and instead focused on meeting the reproductive-health needs of individuals, especially women. Population targets were out; rights were in.

That approach prevailed at several subsequent meetings. […] One searches in vain for any suggestion that it might be appropriate, or wise, to seek to influence the number of children women choose to have, let alone to consider whether continued rapid population growth in some regions may be incompatible with the goal of sustainable development. Since the Cairo conference, such proposals have been portrayed as colonialist and patriarchal, if not racist. White men should not be telling black women not to have babies.

To be sure, there is no shortage of historical precedents – India’s mass sterilization programs and China’s one-child policy, to name just two – for concern about coercive population policies. Nonetheless, we question the wisdom of the taboo on discussing population. According to World Population Prospects, the populations of Angola, Burundi, Niger, Somalia, the United Republic of Tanzania, and Zambia are projected to increase fivefold by 2100. Niger, which has 21 million people today, is expected to have 192 million by the end of the century.

Unsustainable population growth may be to the Left what global warming is to the Right — the preferred reaction seems to boil down to “La la la I can’t hear you and besides it’s racist to even bring it up.”

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 10:21pm

Thomas Malthus was correct and so are you

@lotlizard Population pressure, which is precisely what it is, affects all species from bees to trees. That is why, except for man, all other species have a defined territorial niche in which they are able to exist and maintain the species. Maintain but not expand. Perhaps the territory at any given time for any particular species can be enlarged for various reasons (floods, earthquakes, fires, volcanic eruptions, etc.) after said territory has been abandoned by competing species or even the same species when driven away by these untoward events.

Man, the "great knower" of things has rarely gotten the message. Absent climate change, at this stage with 8 billion people in the world, man would probably have already reached and perhaps surpassed, the ideal limits of population sustainability. Environmental degradation by pollution (liquid, solid, gaseous, thermal) only hastens the time when population reduction of the human species (as well as many others which did not sign up for this experiment) inevitably occurs.

Humans, especially females, like to have babies. Because of technology, beginning with man-made fires and the wheel has been able to commandeer the planet much more than is desirable. Right now population control is desirable and necessary. In the not too distant future, human population control will be inevitable.

#5.1 running into denial and accusations of racism, upon trying to get people to acknowledge that a root cause of unsustainability is population growth. https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rethinking-population-contr... The outrage evoked by [French president Emmanuel] Macron’s remark, however, appears to have little to do with its inaccuracy. Macron violated a taboo that has been in place since the International Conference on Population and Development, held under the auspices of the UN in Cairo in 1994. The conference adopted a Programme of Action that rejected a demographically driven approach to population policies, and instead focused on meeting the reproductive-health needs of individuals, especially women. Population targets were out; rights were in. That approach prevailed at several subsequent meetings. […] One searches in vain for any suggestion that it might be appropriate, or wise, to seek to influence the number of children women choose to have, let alone to consider whether continued rapid population growth in some regions may be incompatible with the goal of sustainable development. Since the Cairo conference, such proposals have been portrayed as colonialist and patriarchal, if not racist. White men should not be telling black women not to have babies. To be sure, there is no shortage of historical precedents – India’s mass sterilization programs and China’s one-child policy, to name just two – for concern about coercive population policies. Nonetheless, we question the wisdom of the taboo on discussing population. According to World Population Prospects, the populations of Angola, Burundi, Niger, Somalia, the United Republic of Tanzania, and Zambia are projected to increase fivefold by 2100. Niger, which has 21 million people today, is expected to have 192 million by the end of the century. Unsustainable population growth may be to the Left what global warming is to the Right — the preferred reaction seems to boil down to “La la la I can’t hear you and besides it’s racist to even bring it up.”

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/09/2017 - 9:12am

@lotlizard What sucks is that

@lotlizard What sucks is that they could have chosen to approach it from a profoundly feminist perspective, since, AFAIK, there's only one thing which has been consistently correlated with lower fertility and consequently lower population growth, across time and cultures and geography. Sadly, that's not availability of contraception, which doesn't work any better than coercive measures (rather than talking about whether or not it's right to coerce someone into not having a child, why don't we talk first about whether or not such measures are effective at achieving the goal?)

Educating women and girls is the only thing that is consistently known to reduce population growth. The more education women and girls receive, the fewer children they have.

#5.1 running into denial and accusations of racism, upon trying to get people to acknowledge that a root cause of unsustainability is population growth. https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rethinking-population-contr... The outrage evoked by [French president Emmanuel] Macron’s remark, however, appears to have little to do with its inaccuracy. Macron violated a taboo that has been in place since the International Conference on Population and Development, held under the auspices of the UN in Cairo in 1994. The conference adopted a Programme of Action that rejected a demographically driven approach to population policies, and instead focused on meeting the reproductive-health needs of individuals, especially women. Population targets were out; rights were in. That approach prevailed at several subsequent meetings. […] One searches in vain for any suggestion that it might be appropriate, or wise, to seek to influence the number of children women choose to have, let alone to consider whether continued rapid population growth in some regions may be incompatible with the goal of sustainable development. Since the Cairo conference, such proposals have been portrayed as colonialist and patriarchal, if not racist. White men should not be telling black women not to have babies. To be sure, there is no shortage of historical precedents – India’s mass sterilization programs and China’s one-child policy, to name just two – for concern about coercive population policies. Nonetheless, we question the wisdom of the taboo on discussing population. According to World Population Prospects, the populations of Angola, Burundi, Niger, Somalia, the United Republic of Tanzania, and Zambia are projected to increase fivefold by 2100. Niger, which has 21 million people today, is expected to have 192 million by the end of the century. Unsustainable population growth may be to the Left what global warming is to the Right — the preferred reaction seems to boil down to “La la la I can’t hear you and besides it’s racist to even bring it up.”

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 9:15pm

injustice collectors

@Centaurea

The best analogy I can come up with is being in an abusive relationship with a personality-disordered person.

By definition, personality-disordered people (who are often narcissists) are incapable of self-awareness and will resist change to the death. In their distorted worldview, nothing is ever their fault. It's always everyone else who's to blame. It's a very skewed and dysfunctional way of perceiving and interacting with the world around them.

I maintain that the specific subset of narcissism which has seized control of the Democratic Party is what is known as injustice collection. From Lisa E. Scott's blog, here's a list of characteristics of injustice collectors (also known as identity politicians):

Characteristics of Injustice Collectors

1. Injustice collectors are never wrong. How is it possible that they are never wrong? It's simple: They are always right.

2. Injustice collectors never apologize. Ever. For anything.

3. Injustice collectors truly believe they are morally and ethically superior to others and that others seem incapable of holding themselves to the same high standards as the injustice collector does.

4. Injustice collectors make the rules, break the rules and enforce the rules of the family. They are a combination of legislator, police, judge and jury to those they consider their subjects. They forever banish from their kingdom any subject they deem disloyal, and only grant clemency if there is sufficient (in their eyes) contrition.

5. Injustice collectors never worry about what is wrong with them as their "bad" list grows. Their focus is always on the failings of others.

6. Injustice collectors are never troubled by the disparity between their rules for others and their own expectations of themselves. Injustice collectors rationalize their own behavior with great ease and comfort.

7. Injustice collectors have an external orientation; the problem always exists in the world, outside of themselves, and in their view, the world would be an acceptable place if their rules and standards were followed at all times.

8. Injustice collectors do not have a capacity for remorse, empathy or guilt.

9. Injustice collectors scoff at the idea of therapy, therapists, self-help books, and other tools used by people who struggle to live with them.

10. The phrase "walking on eggshells" describes life with an injustice collector.

11. The IC (injustice Collector) will prey upon your weaknesses to frame all issues in their terms.

12. IC's will always cry foul when you are 'mean' to them and accuse you of being nasty when you are confronting them with their negative behavior.

13. They are titanically insecure and cannot trust anyone. All relationships they have, even with their own parents and children and trustless and must be reinforced by subordination over and over.

14. They can only strengthen relationships through imprisoning their mates and banning behaviors and other relationships. Friends and family are a huge threat to the IC.

15. They must repetitively revisit situations where you service them, give in to them and agree with them. They will over time shrink your world to a small plot of empty activities that only they like. They are terrified of travel, meeting new people, understanding new concepts and paroling you from any punishment they have previously 'convicted' you of.

16. They do not care about you at all, they care about aggrandizing themselves with you as an assistant producer.

17. They will occasionally do something for you, but if you are not completely brainwashed, it will be a negative experience for you in the end. Example is throwing you a birthday party. I guarantee you will not have fun at your own party.

18. They will force you to choose between them and other things you like or love. The more you choose them, the more they will make you choose them over and over. They do not understand the concept of loyalty at all.

19. Hypocrisy is their modus operandi for debating and arguing with you. Everything they say about you is true about them. (aka Projection) It makes it so you try to 'win' fights by getting them to agree with you, which they never can because their whole position is false.

20. Your life will disappear into their lives. Your hopes and dreams will fade, even in your own mind. You will eat what they want, you will watch what they want on TV, you will vacation where they want, or not at all.

http://www.psychologytoday.com

Now, tell me, doesn't that remind you of the "New Democrats"/DLC/Turd Way types, much less the majority of the population of a certain Democratic website we all can name?

From Caitlin's latest article: Please don’t feed the trolls, America. These pundits are going out of their way to tell you that their party will ignore its progressive base in 2020 because that is exactly what is going to happen. That’s all you need to know. Don’t get sucked into trying to debate them, don’t try to work toward a compromise, don’t try to change them; it will only grind you down and wear you out while the thugs who have hijacked your country tighten the noose around your neck. The best analogy I can come up with is being in an abusive relationship with a personality-disordered person. By definition, personality-disordered people (who are often narcissists) are incapable of self-awareness and will resist change to the death. In their distorted worldview, nothing is ever their fault. It's always everyone else who's to blame. It's a very skewed and dysfunctional way of perceiving and interacting with the world around them. Someone here at c99 recently posted a Jimmy Dore interview with Thomas Frank, in which Frank said that the Dem establishment types, such as Chuck Schumer, simply are not able to change. Even if they begin to realize that things need changing, they are just not able to take action accordingly. I don't know whether the Dem establishment types are personality-disordered, but in many ways their collective behavior rings a loud bell. One common characteristic of an abused partner is to try over and over ad nauseum and ad infinitum to reason with their partner, to get the disordered person to hear them and to understand them. But as long as they keep trying to reach the disordered abuser, as long as they remain engaged on the abuser's playing field, they're doomed. They're stuck. They cannot move on with their own life, creating the kind of life they want. They longer they stay, the more beaten down and traumatized they become. The only way to deal with an abusive relationship is to disengage from their game. Leave, and take the kids with you. Move on. Define your own rules and create the life (the world!) that you want, rather than trying to reach someone who is utterly incapable of hearing. I understand the emotional desire to get the Dems to open their eyes and hear us, but I think Caitlin's right on with this. Progressives need to stop trying to convince the Dem establishment of anything. Trying to reach the Dems is a major energy drain. Instead, get our act together, decide what we want, and start taking action to make it happen.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 10:29pm

Two of your paragraphs should be read aloud prior to...

@Centaurea @Centaurea opening of all meetings of groups trying to work from within the DemonRATic party. You can't talk a rat out of being a rat. Might as well try to teach pigs to sing or alligators to dance. A rat is a rat is a rat. That's all there is to it. For whatever reason the current iteration of the Democratic party is so abusive, arrogant, and self-deluded, the well-meaning members thereof are fooling themselves by thinking they can alter it. What's the best alternative to reasoning with a rat you want to go away? Eliminate it. Choose your weapons.

One common characteristic of an abused partner is to try over and over ad nauseum and ad infinitum to reason with their partner, to get the disordered person to hear them and to understand them. But as long as they keep trying to reach the disordered abuser, as long as they remain engaged on the abuser's playing field, they're doomed. They're stuck. They cannot move on with their own life, creating the kind of life they want. They longer they stay, the more beaten down and traumatized they become.

The only way to deal with an abusive relationship is to disengage from their game. Leave, and take the kids with you. Move on. Define your own rules and create the life (the world!) that you want, rather than trying to reach someone who is utterly incapable of hearing.

From Caitlin's latest article: Please don’t feed the trolls, America. These pundits are going out of their way to tell you that their party will ignore its progressive base in 2020 because that is exactly what is going to happen. That’s all you need to know. Don’t get sucked into trying to debate them, don’t try to work toward a compromise, don’t try to change them; it will only grind you down and wear you out while the thugs who have hijacked your country tighten the noose around your neck. The best analogy I can come up with is being in an abusive relationship with a personality-disordered person. By definition, personality-disordered people (who are often narcissists) are incapable of self-awareness and will resist change to the death. In their distorted worldview, nothing is ever their fault. It's always everyone else who's to blame. It's a very skewed and dysfunctional way of perceiving and interacting with the world around them. Someone here at c99 recently posted a Jimmy Dore interview with Thomas Frank, in which Frank said that the Dem establishment types, such as Chuck Schumer, simply are not able to change. Even if they begin to realize that things need changing, they are just not able to take action accordingly. I don't know whether the Dem establishment types are personality-disordered, but in many ways their collective behavior rings a loud bell. One common characteristic of an abused partner is to try over and over ad nauseum and ad infinitum to reason with their partner, to get the disordered person to hear them and to understand them. But as long as they keep trying to reach the disordered abuser, as long as they remain engaged on the abuser's playing field, they're doomed. They're stuck. They cannot move on with their own life, creating the kind of life they want. They longer they stay, the more beaten down and traumatized they become. The only way to deal with an abusive relationship is to disengage from their game. Leave, and take the kids with you. Move on. Define your own rules and create the life (the world!) that you want, rather than trying to reach someone who is utterly incapable of hearing. I understand the emotional desire to get the Dems to open their eyes and hear us, but I think Caitlin's right on with this. Progressives need to stop trying to convince the Dem establishment of anything. Trying to reach the Dems is a major energy drain. Instead, get our act together, decide what we want, and start taking action to make it happen.

Submitted by Creosote. on Tue, 08/08/2017 - 2:38am

Certified and confirmed at first hand

@Alligator Ed
It was a major advance to see and feel how accurate their abuse was. What I was experiencing was an intensively studied and fully projected self-portrait -- one completely inaccessible to the projector. That gave me the map I needed.

Then I understood perversity, now I see its massive conformist pervasiveness.

Submitted by Unabashed Liberal on Mon, 08/07/2017 - 9:23pm

Hear, hear, Centaurea -- excellent points! :-) EOM

—

Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.