Counterpunch bashes us again. Bernie=white supremacist.
The editorial choices of Counterpunch have made me very skeptical that it is a useful leftwing site anymore, as opposed to an ideologically pure, identity politics driven disinformation site in the business of discrediting the left.
Today, someone I never heard of, Rob Seimetz (who apparently has a radio podcast), offers this outright denunciation of Bernie as a racist:
“Yes. I mean, I think we’ve got to work in two ways,” Sanders answered. “No. 1, we have got to take on Trump’s attacks against the environment, against women, against Latinos and blacks and people in the gay community, we’ve got to fight back every day on those issues. But equally important, or more important: We have got to focus on bread-and-butter issues that mean so much to ordinary Americans.”- Bernie Sanders
That’s right, modern day Willy Wonka does not view blacks, latinos, and people in the gay community as ordinary Americans. Plus bread-and-butter issues for ordinary Americans (straight whites) might be more important.
You see that? A perfectly legitimate statement and this Seimetz guy manages to turn the inclusive and inoffensive word "ordinary" into a racist codeword that negates everything else that Bernie said. Un-fucking-believable. Its 2016 "Bernie is a racist" time all over again. This is what Identity Politics has wrought.
There follows a six paragraph indictment of every bad thing Bernie has done over the last twenty years. Yes, Rob, we get that you despise Bernie. Because that's what Identity Politics is all about - binary decision making, in or out, up or down. No nuance, no middle, no compromise. Just tribalism. In Seimetz's world, politicians are so pure that they never in twenty years contradict themselves or do some logrolling.
Instead, Seimetz accuses anyone who backs Bernie of "living in a world of pure imagination":
white people, as Gene Wilder would put in the 1971 movie Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, live in a world of Pure Imagination...
if Bernie Sanders ever enters the White House and turns it into a modern day chocolate factory full of Pure Imagination, his world of creation will include looking down on Black Americans as well.
Then he admits that Bernie would be better than Trump, but only to immediately knock it down.
While many will say Bernie Sanders would be a better alternative than Donald Trump. I would agree, but Bernie Sanders and the politics he offers isn’t going to cut it anymore. How do we get Medicare for all, free college, and affordable wages without taking a blowtorch to the military budget? And is having a few things like what was just mentioned going to erase the systemic oppression against people of color that has been going on for centuries? I don’t think so.
While you may feel the election of Donald Trump is like taking a shotgun blast to the head, the election of the Bernie Sanders would be like death of a thousand cuts. Either way both political ideologies of these two equal death and that isn’t Pure Imagination.
I am pretty close to writing Counterpunch off my dwindling list of leftwing sites. This insulting, polarizing screed by Seimetz comes after serial Cailtlin Johnston bashing, and being lectured to by a former Israeli army medic, Yoav Litvin, who defends AntiFa and criticizes Chris Hedges. Geez, Cockburn, how much do they pay you to pretend to be a leftist?
These days, Counterpunch seems devoted to dividing, rather than uniting the left. Praising bad actors like AntiFa, criticizing the only credible and popular left-ish politician in the country, and bashing Johnston, one of the harshest critics of the status quo.
I'm not going to give a link to this diatribe. You can find it yourself if you want to get really pissed off.
Comments
Funny, I did read that article today.
And have to agree, his Bernie bashing was very over the top, although personally I do think Bernie is just a tad bit too gung-ho for US militarism. And he "covered" that nicely by not mentioning Her so it seems like he's really just being a totally honest, non-racist white dude when in fact he's peddling the same old tripe most of the Hillbot types are. I tend to think Medicare for All, "free" college (which is a sorry misnomer in my opinion, just a cheap shot really), and a lot less worry about finances would indeed make some of the systemic racism easier to combat - when people are less worried about survival they do tend to see another's point of view with a lot less skepticism to it and a lot less fear of it too.
I still read CP but I am a bit more discriminating now in who I read there.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Its classic propaganda - no middle ground...
with us all the way or a traitor.
To be with Seimetz, you dare not utter the word "class". Because to him anyone who mentions class is a "racist".
Yeah, I do agree that Bernie's leftism stops when it gets to the door of the Pentagon. He tries to avoid talking about our massive military/intelligence budget at all; and when he does, he is a completely conventional neolib/neocon warhawk. That's bad.
But, I am not going to let them tear down Bernie's critique of the economy. This clown wants to tarnish Bernie's economic agenda with all this IP flinging.
That's bad.
it sure is.
does Bernie get a pass?
He doesn't salivate for war, like McCain or Graham
but he also does not vote against it (especially boondoggle crap like the F-35).
I get it that he wants to focus completely on the economics angle. And that's OK as a Congress-critter. They are supposed to specialize. They are supposed to compromise and trade favors.
It was only when Bernie was a Presidential candidate, and even more so when he was supporing HRC in the general, that he owed people the duty of opposing this economy-starving, war-criminal MIC.
I don't like up or down votes on people, as opposed to policy. So, I support Bernie's economic policies, oppose his military policies, and general think the guy is light-years ahead of most high-level US politicians.
ok
except it is congress who has the war power.
in any case, an illegal and immoral war is not a proper item for horsetrading deals, imo.
Since the "Propornot" debacle
I've seen in my eyes a slow progression to the center right
on many of the old Leftist sites......it's been incredibly
slow and very subtle, but it's a happening.
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
Yeah, they just keep tilting the playing field...
moving the (fictitious) Overton window.
Its done slowly, subtely. But over the course of two years, they have demonized Russia, normalized Al Quida, and ignored the massive corruption of HRC and the DNC.
If he wants to reach more people
he should start posting his stuff on ToP. They would eat this up and the echo chamber would set records for the most comments.
This play on words seems to be more obvious to me since I've been paying attention to headlines and then what the articles actually say.
The other thing this accomplishes is to make sure that Bernie's ideas keep getting shouted down if they can make up things about him that aren't true.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
I haven't seen it there yet
If it does show up, I will have my recipes ready. Self-centered Identity Politics really brings out the window-lickers on that site. (Having gone to Reed College, I have seen window licking in real life.)
But hey, any time they get a chance to blame all their neoliberal problems on Bernie . . .
Already pissed because “my“ Left-alternative-Green Germany daily
newspaper is buying hook, line, and sinker into The Atlantic’s smear of WikiLeaks and Julian Assange.
https://www.taz.de/Wikileaks-und-Donald-Trump-junior/!5462988/
Caitlin Johnstone:
The Atlantic commits malpractice, selectively edits to smear WikiLeaks
Caitlyn is quick to call out the bs in the narrative
I have been pointing this out. A headline will say unequivocally that this "...." is the proof that Russia interfered with the election, but inside the article, it's full of innuendo and there is no proof of anything.
Great comment. I have been asking this same question.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Thanks for that Caitlin
I hadn't read about this latest stupid out of the media yet.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Thanks for the link re wikileaks
when you have a $100 B/year black budget and you have legalized propagandizing your own citizens, you never lose. You just keep coming back, keep on trying to get your target.
We need to pull a Grover Norquist (starve the beast) on the MIC. Don't ask me how. But either we get it or it gets us.
You might want to watch this
only 15 minutes in and I think it's a must watch for
every amerikan.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qKrPPv2ErY]
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
I rarely read CP anymore, but it's true
that it's either cut the military budget, or, the PtB will push to slash so-called entitlements in order to find 'offsets' to pay for their tax cuts.
We're seeing that now, and we saw it under 'O' and the Dems with their Catfood Commission, and 8-year quest to strike a Grand Bargain.
Mollie
"I think dogs are the most amazing creatures--they give unconditional love. For me, they are the role model for being alive."--Gilda Radner
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."--Will Rogers
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Counterpunch will put out nearly anything.
It's their MO. They're not your friends, but you can get your stuff put out there anyway.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
Thanks for that comment
In that light, I could put them in the same category as Zero Hedge. Sometimes some useful stuff, but with a heavy dose of ideology.
So this Seimitz
guy is whitesplaining who is and is not a racist???
I never did have any use for Cockburn. In the interest of speaking not ill of the dead I won't say who I think was paying his tab--living in Monterrey ain't cheap, folks, unless your grandpa left you some land there.
Mary Bennett
By "us" do you mean Sanders supporters or
white progressives, which appears to be his primary target besides Sanders? I'm neither so the title gives the impression this site is all one or the other.
I will say I go to Counterpunch daily and don't agree with all of their articles posted and authors but many I do, not unlike most of sites I visit. I used one yesterday, a good article by Jack Rasmus on the tax reform plan, in an essay. Just have to go with your instincts and knowledge.
I meant white progressives - geez, now progressive has to be...
given a fucking IP tag.
I'm an FDR Democrat, that means I support government programs and government regulations. To the extent that Bernie did that, I supported him. But when he just took a dive to support Hillary and the DNC, to me he became no longer a progressive.
My issue with this guy is his utter us-vs-them thinking. He basically demands that all white people have his view on what political stance should be taken on the subject of non-white citizens. If I wanted to follow orders, I would have joined the army.
I hear you, but when every last so-called leftwing website has to be entered with a mine detector, it gets wearing. I go to aggregator sites because they perform the editorial function that newspapers used to perform: they filter wheat from chaff to save me time. If I can't find any website that filters the way I do, I will simply drown in raw data, because I can't drink from the planet-scale firehose that is the internet.
At this point, I feel less insulted going to ZeroHedge than to Counterpunch. I know that ZH is a bunch of rightwing, libertarian assholes. But the moderator puts up a lot of good stories. I just don't bother to read the slavering comments.
The point is that rightwing site editors enforce ideological correctness, while leftwing sites, lately, have degenerated into ideological faction fights, usually refereed by some full-of-it owner like Markos or Cockburn. (This site excluded, thank dog.)
When Marcos and most of Daily Kos call themselves
progressives, the democratic party identifies itself as progressive and when most democratic progressives support imperialism, I don't want anything to do with the label progressive because that would identify me with them. I've made that clear for a long time.
Just my choice.
They just keep stealing our clothes
Two years ago, the DNC was mocking progressives for distinguishing themselves from liberals.
Now, the DNC (which is rightwing on all issues except IP) calls itself progressive; and TPTB have invented the bullshit AntiFa to squeeze progressives from the left.
The problem is that, if I give up the descriptor "progressive", I don't know what to call myself. I don't know how to make a statement about what I believe in. I don't have the words to make my political case. I am a political displaced person, stateless, powerless.
Of course, that's the intention of the unrelenting ideological warfare that has been waged by the DNC crowd over the last 25 years. Their intention has been to run the progressives out of the party and to rule over the sheeple, who can't distinguish an IP neoliberal from a genuine progressive.
I'm with Mongo
[video:https://youtu.be/SKRma7PDW10]
Al From, a co-founder of the DLC, coined the term "progressive"
(in modern-day vernacular) to describe DLCers.
I've twice posted the From video (here) in which he gives his definition of what it means to be 'progressive.' I clipped it from a C-Span Washington Journal interview with host Peter Slen, several years ago.
IOW, the "progressive" label was intended to distinguish between corporatist Dems (DLCers) and DFHs--or, "liberals."
Mollie
The "Grand Bargain" isn't dead--it's being implemented incrementally through piecemeal legislation. Please read "The Moment Of Truth."
"The standard of living of the average American has to decline. I don't think you can escape that."
--Paul Volcker, The New York Times, October 18, 1979, Page 1.
“If we can divide the electorate this way, we can have them expending their energies fighting amongst themselves, over issues that for us, have no meaning whatsoever."
--USA Bankers Magazine, August 25, 1924
"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."
--Author Unknown
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
So iow, a progessive is a corporate democrat.
That's what I thought and exactly what we saw evolve on Daily Kos.
Ah yes, truth is fiction, hate is love, war is peace and
progressive is anti-progressive corporatist. Nah, they can't redefine it so readily, we don't have to let them, since it long predates their existence.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I like to use Socialist
When you force people to define their politics based on economics, it's much harder for them to hide behind noble-sounding euphemisms.
Maybe its time for me to go "Democratic Socialist"
Polls show millenials prefer socialism to capitalism. So the word is no longer guarantees one political exile.
That's what I thought too - Democratic Socialist
And then I was texting with a friend who went to a rally. She said the BLM people were peaceful and respectful, but she was frightened by the Democratic Socialists because they were all there with big firearms slung across their backs. She admitted that they had that right, but it didn't diminish her fears. They made her very uncomfortable.
I don't know what to call myself, either.
That must have been the AntiFa agents provocateur
I have not heard one word about violence from the Democratic Socialists. But I spent years watching hapless leftists, out of the their misguided idealism, allow every fraud and pushy, self-promoting fake turn leftist rallies into a joke.
If the DSA is really into firearms, they are not for me. I sorta suspect its the old "Black Bloc" tactic by TPTB.
Agree, FN. Or, leftist, or radical. I want
nothing to do with anything that includes Democratic or Democrat--for obvious reasons!
Mollie
The "Grand Bargain" isn't dead--it's being implemented incrementally through piecemeal legislation. Please read "The Moment Of Truth."
"The standard of living of the average American has to decline. I don't think you can escape that."
--Paul Volcker, The New York Times, October 18, 1979, Page 1.
“If we can divide the electorate this way, we can have them expending their energies fighting amongst themselves, over issues that for us, have no meaning whatsoever."
--USA Bankers Magazine, August 25, 1924
"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."
--Author Unknown
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Thanks arendt. And you remind me:
And for us other folks...we've got Joe. The filterer of facts. The fuckerupperer of false news.
So, Thanks Joe Shikspack! With the time that I have, Joe provides an amazing service for me. Any other filters out there folks find useful, I'm all ears. I don't want to miss anything because of bias selection. But man, we're blessed with that daily dose IMO.
Apologies for being a bit off topic. I usually save Joe's daily piece for dessert and that is often too late to make comments that add to the conversation.
Not off topic at all
I had never looked at Joe's stuff, because its title was so vague.
I will take a look at it now.
Thanks.
Blowtorch
I would love to "Take a Blowtorch" to the military budget, I would melt it down into the crucible of reason and compassion. I would cut it into a hundred pieces, re-distribute 99 of them back into OUR nation. I would build schools, hospitals, infrastructure, medicaid for all. I would make the MIC complex beg for the last 1 piece. I we actually did that, for one year, our nation would probably be taken care of for the next twenty. We spend something like $250 Million dollars every minute (or is it second) on "defense", which I find offensive.
So would I
My point in the OP was that trashing Bernie is not going to get me closer to being able to use that blowtorch.
The power of the all-or-nothing meme Seimetz is peddling is that, if you are in favor (as we both are) of cutting the military, according to him, you must completely abandon and villify Bernie Sanders.
The world is not black and white. It is many shades of gray. (A metaphor that seems to be past its sell-by date, since black vs white racism is back, and shades of gray is a porn movie.)
Having their military budgets denied
was how Germany and Japan rebounded so strongly after WWII.
That’s right, modern day
Ugh... always hate when people throw out various groups as if they actually pretend to give a shit about them. How many times I've heard from various Democrats and their sycophants (including writers) who throw out they support LGBT people. They don't. It's that simple. They use it as a cudgel but they utterly do not give a shit about us (us being me as an LGBT person).
It's what I hate about identity politics (at least one of the definitions I use for identity politics). I'm disgusted that as an LGBT person I'm supposedly just some robot whose only interest is LGBT issues. Um, no, fuck off. Democrats and their sycophants don't want to help any of those people they listed. They want photo ops with them, but not to actually help them.
An example I created:
A homeless white man is sitting on a street corner. A Republican walks by and sees him. The Republican tells him to pick himself up by the boot straps and not be a taker. A Democrat walks by the man and tells him to check his privilege. The man says he is gay. The Democrat's eye suddenly light up. The Democrat kneels next to the man, takes out his/her phone and does a selfie with the tag "I support LGBT people!". And then the Democrat walks away.
Those things about "ordinary" Americans, well, guess what, they are important to everyone.
What use is having LGBT photo-ops when I am dying and lack health care?
What use is having LGBT photo-ops when my country is the greatest terror force on the planet?
What use is having LGBT photo-ops when I can't afford to live anywhere?
Being LGBT is the new flag pin: always trotted out as important but mostly the support is superficial.
I often criticize Bernie and do so honestly. But, many of his proposals would help anyone, everyone.
Is single payer looking down on black people? Are black people superhumans who don't need health care?
Free college? Guess black people don't have higher aspirations?
Dealing with climate change? I guess black people will be immune from its effects in the future.
But again, the writer here is nothing more than someone who throws out words that have slowly lost all meaning.
Again, is he talking globally or here specifically in America? Again, amorphous sounding nefarious concepts "systemic oppression" against "people of color". Earlier, he only listed blacks and Latinos. No mention of Native Americans which Democrats ignored during DAPL. Hell, who ever mentions Asian Americans? Like seriously, who ever mentions Asian Americans? Only times Arabs are mentioned are if they are linked to being Muslim.
Often, people of color often is selective and merely means blacks/Latinos. Are there things like our criminal justice system that needs to be reformed, including the military police wing of it? Yup. But, this task of systemic oppression and racism is, personally, always shifting and never curable.
Clinton on her campaign trail talked about splitting up the big banks won't end racism. That she was going to go and end racism or something to that effect. Yeah, bullshit. Read a comment from a 1% wife of a banker who said that single payer won't stop a black family from getting a side eye at a park. How exactly would electing Clinton stop that family from getting a side eye? How is making sure people don't fucking die from lacking basic health care anywhere comparable to getting a damn side eye? What a great way to tell someone who get support from these folks, huh?
"My mom just died from cancer because we couldn't afford her medical bills."
"Well, we found it more important to deal with your systemic oppression than give you something like health care."
In the end, talking about oppression and people of color often revolves around blacks/Latinos not because people give a shit, it's because it is PR. Blacks and Latinos are large groups Democrats focus on and what better way to solicit support than through identity politics. If they truly cared, they would actually mention those who are invisible (Asian populations for instance) or those who are completely and utterly ignored (Native Americans, Arabs, etc.) This angle is more situated on putting underrepresented populations in corporate boardrooms -- that is equality. Not of course the actual problem of the corporate boardroom in the first place.
The frightening and amazing thing out of all of this is that those who often talk about these issues often vote for the people who do the damage in the first place. Clinton Crime Bill sure helped deal with that systemic oppression.
Feel like I'll just continue to ramble on so I'll end here for now ha.
Good rant.
Thanks for reminding me that IP is all about symbolism, poster children, and tokenism, not results. Its an exercise in "perception management". Its a big advertising campaign. You know, like the one that the Ad Biz gave the Obama campaign an award for "best marketing" back in 2008.
This guy only proves Bernie is
lousy at pandering. Not exactly true. He want's to make sure he's inclusive, but it sounds a little off, kinda like the whole democratic party. Best he stays himself.
I posted this on C99s FB page
It really pissed off some guy. I didn’t see it until this am. If you have a FB acct, you might want to look out of curiosity.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Wouldn't touch Facebook. Its trivial, its spyware,its addictive
But thanks for the heads up.
Could you give me some idea what this guy was upset about? Was he a regular? A troll?
It was the guy who wrote the article.
I am going to delete my comment because I see he is here to speak for himself. I am glad he came.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I think Mr. Seimetz is
a perfect candidate for diarist over at DKos. He has all the right sentiments about Bernie, and the Democarthyist crowd will all nod their heads in sync reading his views.
"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin
Boy, this reminds me of the early Rush Limbaugh
Take something out of context, twist it into a pretzel, use it as a basis to equate it with some horrible action, attribute it to being like a whole group of individuals, and be outraged. OUTRAGED!!!! and ally yourself with the "victims". To paraphrase Molly Ivens, this sounded better in the original RWNJ-ese.
Excellent observation. n/t
I agree.
It is what he did, and then he got pissed off when he got called on it.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
My Article
It can become very dangerous to just take a segment of my article and not put it into complete context. I never said that he was a racist as evidenced from my link to the article at the bottom.
What I was getting at is that Bernie Sanders does not view the gay community, Latinos, and black Americans as ordinary Americans and that more importantly he wants to focus on bread and butter issues.
That’s an extremely off putting thing to say to these communities. And is a put down. I never used the word racist.
The article is much more than just about Bernie Sanders. And while I agree with Medicare for all, free college and healthcare I don’t agree with his imperialistic/American exceptional views. If we do not take a blow torch to the military budget and institute these policies what do you think is going to happen to our taxes? They are going to go up big time, when there’s no need for it with our military spending.
We need something better than Bernie Sanders. We are in a desperate time as a species and are facing down our extinction. Electing someone within the Democratic Party isn’t going to fix it. I am not one for working within the system, I think it needs to be taken down.
We have settled for way too much and refused to demand and it’s really hurting us, but more importantly it’s hurting black Americans on a devastating level and many white Americans refuse to acknowledge the serious State our planet is in and how racism is an epidemic. That’s my message in the article which I will link for anyone to read so they can decide for themselves.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/11/14/pure-imagination-why-its-getting...
You do realize that that is fallacious. It may,
by chance be true, or it may not. It is reminiscent of all the crap posted elsewhere that tries to say that there is a working class and there are POC and that the two sets do not intersect, when, in fact, POC are a huge component of the working class. Likewise each of the enumerated groups are, in your rhetorical picture, exclusive of everything else, whereas, in fact, they are all ordinary people, but are merely not the totality of ordinary people. Had he said "Americans" (a misnomer), would you have raised the same objections?
We all know who the extraordinary US citizens are, the elites and oligarchs; the rest, all of us hoi polloi, in addition to any identity subgroup(s) we hold ourselves as belonging to, are ordinary US citizens, ordinary POC, ordinary GLBT, ordinary women, ordinary workers, but none of us is the entirety of the ordinary populace, hence it is proper to address it as a whole.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
@enhydra lutris
To me it’s very simple. Why did he need to separate Latinos, blacks, and the gay communities from “ordinary Americans”? It’s not a good look on his part and then to say bread and butter issues might be more important for ordinary Americans is a put down to the black, Latino and gay communities.
Not to mention his foreign policy. I didn’t even include other things he said that are terrible like supporting going into Libya calling it a complicated issue. And his support for AIPAC. It’s not that he’s racist or a white supremacist, but between that comment he made and his imperialist foreign policy it’s as if he doesn’t value lives of other races as he does white lives.
I think me and people on this page probably want a lot of the same things. I think the Republican Party is a terrorist organization and Hillary Clinton is a criminal along with her sexual predator of a husband, but the difference is I want to support someone who is way more principled than Bernie Sanders and I think what we are facing is far more of a dire situation.
you want perfect?
Get real.
There are a bunch of malfeasors who have, for generations now,
but ever more so recently, worked tirelessly to divide the people, to set us against each other and prevent us from effectively and efficiently banding together to overset the oligarchs and elites. One of the favorite tools of late is to declaim that anybody speaking to matters of economic and environmental justice is the enemy of (fill in the blank) because they are throwing (fill in the blank) under the buss by failing to focus on and specifically address those issues specific to (fill in the blank)
To counter that rhetoric, anybody trying to attack these larger issues must acknowledge the importance and necessity of dealing with and addressing those specific particular issues. This, rhetorically, is best done by addressing specific exemplars and saying,"yes, we must address the attacks on and issues specific to (inset several subcategories of the 99% that have been specifically attacked or used by the malfeasors in their fallacious rhetoric), and (or but) we must also wage the wider war, to fight the oligarchs regarding those matters of important to all of us (ordinary, non-oligarchic) people.
To interpret it otherwise is possible, but that means that there are zero ordinary people and the rhetoric becomes nonsense. If every identifiable subset is to be excluded from "ordinary", "ordinary" becomes an empty set. That is a flaw both with English and with the fact that we are looking at ordinary speech. Everyday people do not identify inclusive ors and exclusive ors and draw venn diagrams in the air. That is our loss, but there is, of late, a tendency to seek out the one possible interpretation that is problematic and to declare it to be the one true interpretation even though it is not explicitly so.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
@Seimo28
He didn't 'separate' them - what makes you think they aren't people, lol? Should I be seriously upset that you left out mention of women - half the population - specifically included by Bernie, and assume that you don't consider us as being people?
Maybe try re-reading what you quoted without, apparently, absorbing? (Done that myself more times than I'm happy about admitting and a re-read usually makes the misunderstanding clear.)
He very clearly did not mean that only White straight males were people, just that basic survival imperatively needs to be addressed because impoverished people are sickening, suffering and dying in increasingly large numbers and both this and the situation is worsening annually and becoming more drastic on a snowballing basis.
Not that discrimination isn't something to be fought and educated out of society but that the economic issues must be recognized as paramount and immediately addressed.
There is more economic disparity in America now - the wealthiest country in the world - than there was in The Great Depression. And one hell of a lot more hazardous industrial pollutants to which predominately poor people - who can't afford relatively safe/healthy food and housing in less-polluted areas - are most heavily exposed, something in which I include the often distressingly toxic food and water supply. Issues which typically affect PoC in the US even more widely and heavily than Whites.
Put that Bernie quote in context with what's going on with 60% (and rising) of Americans being anywhere from balanced on the economic edge to toppling over it with an almighty splat - and the fact that America's wealth is ever more rapidly being sucked up by the top fraction of a 1% having already most, from the American people's shrunken pay-cheques and cut/non-existent benefits, from the American people as customers (to what extent they still can be, at any rate) of virtual monopolies, from America's natural resources and public-essential utilities, from the American people's stolen Commons and from their public funding.
Those starving and homeless or worried about becoming so would probably rather have living-wage jobs and a safety net for those unable to work, affordable housing, public education available at all levels and health care worked toward now, rather than having more affluent people merely discussing the problem of discrimination until well after they've died in abject misery.
MLK was murdered while planning an anti-poverty march, and Bernie knows how essential that long-postponed next step is.
PoC especially and the gay community are considered vulnerable targets by police and others because, in an imposed pathological corporate culture, wealth is deemed to confer the only human value worthy of consideration, with the poor designated as a group to be despised by their 'betters' as 'worthless because not worth real money' - and it's assumed that identifiable 'safe' victims, such as those of Colour, some gay people and traumatized military vets sleeping on sidewalks, can't afford decent housing and food, never mind lawyers.
Discrimination is an excuse for selective abuse of those perceived as being vulnerable, and it's a lot harder for anyone to discriminate to that point when everyone is actually overall secure in earning enough for reasonable comfort and are treated like human beings worthy of a living wage, human rights, a decent life and treatment by the State in general.
When those staffing the State don't care about or ensure any population group's rights or survival and instead act for those who actively predate upon them, discrimination is built directly into the system and imposed right from the top.
The more vulnerable people are seen as nothing more than the rightful prey of those more powerful, in the fascist US State now so painfully obvious. And that's expanding into all of the 99%, as those below that top fraction of the 1% begin to find 'their share' of the upward-draining general economic bounty and rights dwindling as they're redirected as well to never-yet satisfy the insatiable.
And it's the stolen wealth, rights and power of Americans being used against Americans by a relative few, in buying their public policy and their government in order to squeeze out those last drops of their life-blood before the whole mess collapses under the mindlessly-devouring weight of the pathologically greedy.
Guess who'll be crushed flattest at the bottom if this isn't addressed and rectified ASAP?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Seimo28
I wish you'd tell us of the paragon you'd like to support, so that we could check him/her out. If you're still on here, could you let us know, please?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Seimo28 I would like to tear
I would like to tear that article apart. But the only thing important enough to state at this time, is that Bernie thinks the 99% are ordinary americans. Geez, it really doesn't take a PhD to know that Bernie cares about all people...he just doesn't have to 'label' them.
When the interviewer asked his brother about Bernie's compassion towards poor people, his answer was that Bernie didn't necessarily see them as such, but wants everyone to have the equal access and chance to live their best life. I see nothing wrong with that.
In life, as in dance, grace glides on blistered feet. ~Alice Abrams
Bernie Sanders is an imperialist who wants to reform
the democratic party. IF that's the best we got, that explains why we're in such deep shit. And it helps explain the lack of an antiwar movement in this country, when those are the supposedly farther left support feel they have to support an imperialist. And also points out how fucked up our political system is.
The only reason I see now for continuing to support Sanders is if one believes in reforming the democratic party. Many who visit this site still do, maybe most who visit, not necessarily who post and comment. If that's their thing still after this long after the election, it's probably not changing come next election.
As far as being a racist or progressive, yes he is a progressive because that's what democrats are. Progressive means nothing now. Saying he's a racist is weak tea, particularly based on what he said recently. I don't think that's an issue when it comes to Sanders. His issue is the democratic party.
Exactly Big Al. Well said.
This is precisely the conclusion I've come to as well, and I do not believe in that goal. I've accepted that is what Sanders believes in. This morning when I got yet another email from someone talking about something something Bernie Sanders (I didn't actually read it), it finally was the day. Unsubscribed and done. Not interested in that whatsoever.
Every day people
I've still seen no evidence that Mr. Sanders views any minority - whether it be divisions assigned by sexuality, by race, by religion, or by ethnic heritage - as anything other than a part of the 99%. To me, his overview seems to be that economic and internal national issues affect all citizens more-or-less equally.
Years ago, someone else put it all in one sentence: "What good is having the right to sit at a lunch counter if you can’t afford a hamburger?” In case you don't remember, it was a certain Rev. King who spoke those words ... the same Rev. King who led the various "poor people's marches."
From the mid to late 60's to the end of his life, Rev. King was pushing economic issues very hard. Yes, he still would speak to discrimination, but that's probably not what got him killed. Were he alive today, I have no doubt MLK would have little disparaging to say about Mr. Sanders' view that economic issues take precedence over the hundreds of identity politics skirmishes. Of course, MLK would never defend Sanders' foreign policy stances, nor his support of the Democratic Party.
In your article, you point out the fact that:
I don't dispute that one bit. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the estimate is too conservative. Thing is, Native Americans will be hitting that zero even sooner; Latinos right afterward; and - at the rate things are going - even most whites are going to be looking in the eyes of that wolf. All these people - all every day people - are facing economic disaster, some sooner than others. For every group or sub-set we prop up, another languishes. Why not lift all? Everyone. It's my take that this is Mr. Sanders view.
@travelerxxx
Great comment! It's a desperate situation...
(Emphasis mine.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_the_United_States
And the above appears to date from 2012, while inequality has worsened every year, while older data is often all that's available, with much of the wealth of the richest only guessed at from what's publicly shown and pieced together, with unguessable trillions off-shored, even if we are gradually learning about some potion of this though leaks.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/one-in-five-american-households-have-z...
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/business/economy/wealth-inequality-ri...
Lol, the OXFAM report costs money to view, although you can have a free trial. May I weep now?
https://www.scribd.com/document/346513522/Economic-inequality-OXFAM-repo...
We all know this - but very few in politics are focused on wanting to do something about it. It's really only Bernie who cannot be sidetracked away from such imperatives...
I don't know why so many have in the past been intent on discarding Bernie because his interests have not followed the corporate politicians into an all-for-personal-profit-and-power focus on 'foreign policy' consisting of military attacks, invasions, electoral and policy interference, blockades of essential supplies to vulnerable populations and regime change, to instead laser-focus on the long neglected needs of the country and people of America, or how this got twisted into terming him a warmonger even in the minds of those who know that his previous experience in dealings with other countries involved aid and diplomacy, but going by his past record, if Bernie has been disinformed by being trapped in the bubble, he will listen to evidence and admit when he's mistaken, unlike too many in politics and out.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Wealth inequality = T for Trouble
Thank-you for the kind words, Ellen.
I know there are time-sensitive issues before us - looming war-clouds and climate change most prevalent - but I am worried about the affects of this vast wealth inequality we see. While I don't have the information right with me, within the last few years some researchers published a study (perhaps a paper or a book) wherein they showed that no society had ever survived with levels of wealth inequality such as we see now. They went back through history and found that the result of such inequality was sudden and often violent change. The resulting uproars were not predictable, often leaving cities smoking with dead littering the streets.
Here in the US, we tend to think everything will just continue on as it was yesterday and the day before. Yet, there is rage simmering in this nation. I don't really know how short the fuse is, but once lit I suspect it will hit the main charge rather quickly. I don't want to see this happen. The poor in this nation are in no position to fight; they would be up against police forces armed better than some nation's armies. I worry that they would find themselves up against a military that will follow orders first and consider what they are doing second. (I do pray that I'm wrong about our military, but if it comes down to the officer corps, the odds are not so good; with the average GI, there's still hope.)
Sadly, I see few of our political leaders who are paying attention to the dangers of this extreme wealth inequality. The Republicans certainly are not considering it; they have more than proved it by their most recent tax overhaul proposals, which can be considered nothing but an obscene fund-the-already-rich-by-screwing-the-poor scheme. It's so obvious that one practically wonders whether they unknowingly sense that this is a last ditch Hail Mary move to gut the populace of their funds and services before total catastrophe.
Democrats are hardly worth mentioning. It seems their only purpose is to grease the skids for the Republicans. They sit at check-cashing parties in Martha's Vineyard plotting how they can keep the money flowing while still maintaining the PR that they are the Party of the People. Excuse me while I vomit.
There are a few of our major Capitalists who note the danger. However, it doesn't seem that many of their fellow business leaders are willing to even slightly slow the rape and plunder. It's probably not really in their nature to do so, so in a way I don't blame them. As in the old fable, we knew they were snakes from the beginning. There should be no surprise when the fangs pierce us.
Saturday, my wife and I will have two of our grandchildren over to spend the night. One is a first grader, the other a third grader. The more I look at these children, the more I am concerned. They are going to see change that I can't even imagine. My hope is that they are not the very victims of it. As I see the struggles of their parents, I suspect they already are.
@travelerxxx
Disaster capitalists who believe that enough money can buy them anything, including another habitable planet to ruin. Personally, I think that this is the looting phase for the PTB to finally 'have it all' and the ruination done quite consciously...
I am so glad that I have no children and worry so much about those growing up now, but we must hold to hope. TPTB might try to take even that from us, but the Nazi's were thought unstoppable at the time, and despite the better planning of this lot, things can change. And not necessarily via rioting and citizen violence.
Alex Ocana, who used to post on here and who I miss and worry about, was involved in the successful, pacific Bolivian revolution and had solid, experienced advice. I do hope that he only quit posting because that advice was never taken and he perhaps couldn't bear to watch us merely walking toward/voting for disaster or simply gave up on us and went somewhere more active and receptive, and not because he's unable to check in for any reason...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Alex Ocana
I'm concerned about Alex Ocana's absence here, too. If anyone has any information, I'd be interested ... sure I'm not the only one.
Seconded (?) Re: Alex Ocana n/t
@Seimo28 Seems that this has to
Seems that this has to be broken down piece by piece here.
And you would be wrong. You desperately seek to be offended. I mean this is really not that difficult.
Ordinary has a different definition than the one you are trying to peddle:
Ordinary American can mean something that ALL people face, something that is prevalent across every spectrum and issue. Black people aren't superhuman; they need healthcare just as much as a white person. Climate change will affect straights and gays just the same.
So each group you mentioned are ordinary Americans, hell they're just Americans. But the issues that they exclusively face may not be something that in general ordinary Americans face. A black man and a white man having a heart attack are things that they both need remedied. A trans bathroom bill won't affect over 99% of the population. That doesn't make the bill right, but it is so exclusive to one set of people that it isn't felt across the spectrum of everyone else. This isn't that difficult to grasp.
Stop speaking for others. Seriously, it's just so disgusting.
I can speak for myself as an LGBT person. I can tell you actually don't give a shit about LGBT people. All you care about is accruing points for yourself to pretend to feel superior without actually giving a damn what actually fucking happens to us. I speak for myself solely as one person and would never suggest to speak for the whole community of people whose only sole linkage here is sexuality as they have so many different values and perspectives. But people like you just lump us all together under one big gay umbrella. Just stop.
What is this, Republican/Democrat talking points? Single payer would save money overall -- just reallocate the funds. No excessive taxation required. Free college was a small tax on Wall Street trades, again no jump in taxes for "ordinary" folks. See how I used ordinary for the 99%. Yes our military budget is horrendous and needs to be significantly cut, but that is irrelevant to the points you just made.
Let's see if we can make sense of this one. You talk about the serious problems of climate change and environmental devastation that could impact billions of people... and then you focus on racism. Um, and also, just a FYI for you, it's not just white Americans that are ignoring the state of our planet. Why even do that? Jesus get out of your myopic prejudice. Men, women, white, black, latino, straight, Hindu, etc. Here in America we ignore climate change and the actual solutions that are required. I mean wow, you talk about a species being on the brink of extinction and you rant on the word "ordinary". Yikes...
Really let that sit in. You focus so much on whether or not folks are "ordinary" Americans and then you throw in the potential extinction of the human race. The sheer magnitude of that is so monumental that that dwarfs your ranting on the word "ordinary". I mean it almost comes across as literally insignificant and meaningless. Billions of people suffering and dying, along with the potential of our entire species...and you focus on that. Wow.
Maybe we need something better
But I'm here to tell you right now that if I had another shot at Sanders I'd go for it again. Sure, we'd need to get serious with anti-war protests but Sanders has shown himself to be responsive to activism in the past.
Granted, I'd prefer someone not as in bed with the Democratic establishment but Sanders is a lesser evil I can live with.
Insofar as your thoughts on his statement regarding race, your read is yours, but I sure as hell don't read it like that and your read looks like someone trying to find an issue. In the end, the left needs people trying to find common ground not people looking for issues.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Glad you came here to represent yourself.
We are non-partisan, irreverent as hell, and always open to a good argument.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
And it looks like I am not
And it looks like I am not the only one that agrees with this point.
http://www.theroot.com/bernie-sanders-is-not-a-real-progressive-1820122317
So? That doesn't make you right
and pointing out that the idea for this attack came from someone else first doesn't do anything to make it credible.
I first read this attack on Sanders days ago, and immediately I thought it was ridiculous. He didn't say those communities are not "ordinary Americans" and anyone can easily discern that. Using that line of attack looks weak and transparently desperate to smear him on any thread you can weave into a story to make him look bad. It made me think it's got to be coming from Hillbots, because who else would be reaching so far, and stooping so low, to go after him now, and to paint Sanders in such a dishonest (or deeply misinformed) way.
Your article is dripping with identity politics and dishonest spin against Sanders. And I'm saying that as someone who is, at this point, officially a former Sanders supporter. I actually just unsubscribed from his email list this morning. Not because of this bullshit, but because I don't agree with his continued support for the democrats.
Many of your points about him, re foreign policy, militarism, etc. are correct, and it's too bad you didn't stick to facts and real issues, instead of writing an off-base attack based on spin and a shallow, obviously false interpretation of a simple comment he made.
In closing, thanks for joining up here to participate in the discussion. I hope you will reconsider your approach though, and skip the whitesplaining and identity politics in the future.
@CS in AZ
Didn’t stick to the facts? What are you talking about? I sourced Just about every piece of information on that article including various studies to confirm that many whites think black Americans are treated equally even though they are not. And are ignoring the fact that white nationalism is on the rise. Look at all the underlined points in the article when it’s underlined it’s sourced.
@Seimo28 @QMS
No I want someone who is against capitalism and empire.
@Seimo28
Here’s more proof white supremacy has been on the rise.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/white-nationalist-movem...
Irrelevant, immaterial, and YOU KNOW IT
Stop throwing buckets of pitch around, you'll just get yourself dirty.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
He may not know it
Seems like he might actually believe this crap. Oh brother, I'm done here for now, gotta feed the dogs and take care of life, no more time to argue with someone who is wrong on the internet.
Insert famous "someone is wrong on the internet" xkcd cartoon here...
Blah blah blah blah blah
What you say has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Bernie Sanders and YOU KNOW IT, and you are mendaciously equating A with Z to make him look really really really bad instead of merely flawed.
Go over to Daily Kos, please, where they'll eat that crap up with ladles, and leave us alone.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Maven, he was invited to come here
I actually looked in on the Facebook discussion mentioned above, saw that he was posting on there, and was told that his commentary would be welcome here. And now here he is.
I do agree with the rest of your comment. Entirely. But I'm trying to stay within the "respectful disagreement" tone that's expected here. Even though, yes, that is evidently a one-way street with this one.
Your mistake, CS
I'm trying to remain civil, but it gets harder with each increase of the Gish Gallop.
"White supremacy" is a problem we've always had - it's just that sometimes they've felt more comfortable crawling out of their holes than other times.
This not only has 10,000% of NOTHING to do with Bernie Sanders, it is overt, blatant Guilt By Association and Smearing the Messenger.
Earth to this clown: Bernie is NOT A WASP. Bernie is JEWISH. Bernie could play his own Identity Politics and Victim Politics cards - but he doesn't, because that's not who he is.
He's nowhere near perfect (biggest problems: foreign policy, and the delusion that the Democratic Party can be salvaged). But what did they used to say about not letting the perfect be the enemy of the merely good?
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
But the mods do appreciate your effort to be civil.
I would hate to see disagreement shut down. It is why we all left dailykos.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
@TheOtherMaven
So supporting foreign policies that have killed millions of people including civilians is just simply “flawed”? Dismissing African Americans, Latinos, and the gay communities as ordinary Americans just “flawed”? There’s a reason why Bernie Sanders struggled to get the black vote see the link below.
https://splinternews.com/how-bernie-sanders-lost-black-voters-1793860129...
And why is that? Because he could not connect with black voters. Because he’s out of touch with the reality that black Americans face today. Hence the whole point of putting him as part of the article! And this is who a lot of white progressives have pinned their hopes on, an out of touch, flawed candidate.
Your pants are in ashes,
and you are just recycling the same old debunked crap that was churned out in oceans by The Hillary Campaign.
Waste of your time and our space.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
The fact that Bernie didn't say what you claim, for one
I guess reading isn't your strong suit, because I already said where you went off the truth and just made shit up about him. White nationalism on the rise has literally nothing to do with Sanders. Why the need to make up lies about him, is the question. You think making false attacks on Sanders is going to fix any of the things you say you care about? Think again. It just makes you look like a Hillbot.
@CS in AZ
You’re missing the point. The article is broken down in two sections.
1. Many white people’s feelings on race and the reality what is happening with race.
2. White progressives pinning their hopes on a Imperialist that is out of touch with sectors of the minority communities.
Hence why it’s getting harder to talk to white people about politics. This was much more than about Bernie Sanders. He’s only a part of the article. Not the sole focus like whoever posted this about my article originally made up.
You made it about Bernie Sanders
That was your choice. I read your article, and like I already said - again - you made some good points. But the false and dishonest attack on Sanders, by simply LYING about what he said, and meant, detracted significantly from any valid points you had. That's why I said you should have left that out and stuck to actual issues. Including any valid criticism of Sanders.
@CS in AZ
Looks like we can agree to disagree on Bernie Sanders’ quote. It’s not that he’s racist or anything like that. It just shows to me he’s out of touch. But hey I am over it, we have all said our peace.
@Seimo28
I came on here to engage with people. While it’s easier to soak up any praise people can give for the article I would rather talk to those that have some challenges or disagreements. That’s where the learning takes place. So many times I see people stay in their political bubble, but I would rather not do that.
You came here to BULLY people,
and you have made that abundantly clear by your words and your persistence in attacking.
This is not a friendly environment for bullies.
By this point you have probably antagonized even those people here who think Sanders is a waste of their time.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
@TheOtherMaven
Someone posted something about my article. I come on and make a statement about it. I engage in back and forth opinions with people. Then out of nowhere you join in and say I am a waste of your time and this space and I am the bully? If I am a waste of time and space here please then don’t have this site post anything about my articles again especially false information about them. And I won’t come here to defend myself over false claims.
This I think will make us all happy.
Don't write articles if you don't want criticism
Easy, peasy!
You know how you twisted his words. You know how the Clinton Machine (David Brock's Hillbot army and blatantly false bs from Her surrogates included) had everything to do with Bernie's numbers regarding support from people of color. We had super predators needing to be brought to heel vs a man arrested during civil rights protest. Now you're trying to perpetuate and defend it.
Bye, now.
While I respect your courage to come into a hostile room...
I think there is a fundamental disconnect between your assumptions and worldview, and that of many of us here at this site.
Many here have come from a site where the accusation of racism for supporting Bernie was part and parcel of a large purge of membership. That association was false and is a constant source of slander of this site's membership from places that shall remain nameless.
Personally, I avoid your kind of articles on principle, so I can assure you I won't be posting about them. I can't speak for anybody else here, or would assume that anyone could.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
No, he isn't out of touch.
Identity politics are out of touch and divisive as hell. If you can't relate to the unity in the message of income inequality, then I think you are the one that is out of touch.
Bernie Sanders Doesn't Have a Black Problem—He Has a Pundit Problem Stop trying to make him racist.
It’s time to end the myth that black voters don’t like Bernie Sanders
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I have to admit
It blows my mind that the white guy who is chained at a black rights rally WAY before it was cool is being turned into a racist. Can people really be that stupid? I honestly don't think so. I think the people pressing those lines are doing so with malice aforethought. I'd be more than happy to debate any or all of Bernie's policies proposals or thoughts on racism in modern day America. I doubt he's got everything all sorted perfectly. But turning him into a racist is simply ludicrous.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Article writer shows up, finds self in hole, keeps digging
Had to happen one of these days.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.