On Chomsky and Halle's contribution to the army of Trump-fearing rubes

So far I have refrained, here, from commenting on the Noam Chomsky/ John Halle statement about "lesser evil voting" -- mostly because the idea that the world needs more evil appears to me as a patent absurdity. For the most part I've focused upon how Trump is basically a placeholder, incapable (in important ways) of attaining the Presidency, and about how fear of the placeholder, unaccompanied by examinations of actual fact, is supposed to condition our votes for Clinton. But I was impressed by a statement by Vincent Kelley on one of my favorite blogs, Orchestrated Pulse, and especially by its title:

I Ain't Afraid Of No Trump

Kelley's argument here is methodical and well-reasoned, picking out the absences in the Chomsky/ Halle piece. His best points are in his seventh paragraph. In their reasoning, Chomsky and Halle are caught "skipping the necessary step of demonstrating that Clinton will harm these populations less than Trump would and opportunistically using undefined 'victimized' people to bolster their claim" that some sort of imagined Trump administration would be worse. But the rest of this paragraph is even better:

Most fundamentally, it (Chomsky's and Halle's argument) assumes that the left actually has the potential for political power that would lead it, if Trump were elected, to lose masses of prospective allies due to its refusal to vote for Clinton. The much soberer reality is that the American left is far too weak to bring these ever elusive converts into its fold no matter how it votes or doesn’t vote in November. While this left has been busy calling out Trump’s bigoted rhetoric and attacking his seemingly hate-filled supporters, Trump has bolstered his racism and xenophobia with a call to turn the GOP into a “worker’s party” for justifiably angry white working class audiences who have been hit hard by NAFTA and fear another Clintonite assault in the form of the TPP.

So while people are being screwed by a reactionary politics going on right now, Trump-phobes (including the so-called "Left" that was supposed to lead them before they became Trump-phobes) are kept busy by the numerous etiquette mishaps of a placeholder candidate and small-time huckster who promises them some sort of imaginary relief from the politics they are sure to get next January after the coronation. Trump-phobia, then, is not conscious politics. Please tell Bernie Sanders.

There's clearly a history of this sort of thing, though, a set of concrete reasons for how the "Left" in America became five people in a room bickering over nothing. We will vote "lesser of two evils" in November because we voted that way in the previous six elections, and because each time we did this, the "Left" lost some share of its point for existing at all until at some point this year we were confronted by Bernie Sanders, relic of days when hope was more obvious, running in a set of rigged primaries, with a vast array of vacuous politicians and celebrities opposing his campaign. And Sanders' campaign itself? It didn't promise us anything you couldn't already get in Scandinavia. Hopefully what's left of it can survive the pivot to historical consciousness.

UPDATE: 10am Pacific Time 7/7/2016: what should be clear from the Sanders campaign's history is that, given the history of thirty years of lesser-evil voting, the "Left," and democracy itself, have become so corroded that a widely-popular Presidential campaign could be stopped by voter fraud and influence-peddling. See, if "lesser-evil voting" over the past thirty years had actually accomplished anything, a Sanders run at this late point wouldn't have been as necessary, nor would it have had to face such ridiculous roadblocks, and a Trump Presidency would be recognized for the ridiculous notion it in fact is.

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I particularly noted this:

not only must we take responsibility for our actions, but the consequences of our actions for others are a far more important consideration than feeling good about ourselves.

This is where my thinking is going, although I would have discarded the "for others" bit. Is registering my rejection of the party duopoly worth the risk of a Trump presidency? Is a potentionally significant percentage of votes for the Greens important enough to ignore the party duopoly altogether? (It should be obvious that I do think Trump would be worse than Clinton. Otherwise, I would not hesitate to vote Green). Which vote would potentionally be less catastrophic for the planet?
.
Of course, the whole conversation would be moot if we used ranked-choice voting.

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Hawkfish's picture

The right has their own spoiler.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Meteor Man's picture

Let's not forget the history of the "libertarian" party:

8] Koch is an influential libertarian. He was the 1980 candidate for Vice President of the United States from the United States Libertarian Party and helped finance the campaign. He founded Citizens for a Sound Economy.[9] He and his brother Charles have donated to political advocacy groups[3] and to political campaigns, almost entirely Republican.[10]

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koch]

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

Hawkfish's picture

I'm just saying that anyone who wants us to fear Ivankas Boyfriend wants us to ignore the fact that he has his own 10% vote siphon.

(My favorite memory of the 1980 election is the gold coins with Kochs face on them.)

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

have you to support that belief?

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Your second is not. "What evidence" smacks of the "prove it!" line (which is typically used by those for whom nothing ever constitutes proof). And to call my thought process "belief" is insulting. Belief is contrary to thinking.

In any case, I'm not interested in discussing it. It's unpleasant enough to consider the differences (and similarities) by myself, without putting words to tablet. FSM help us.

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I didn't ask you to prove anything. I didn't even ask or demand that you justify beyond reproach your belief that Clinton is better. However, since you believe Clinton is better, that implies you have some reason think so, and I've asked for some evidence you consider to be supporting your belief, because I'm curious about your calculus in this regard.

Also you clearly are interested in discussing it.

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Lily O Lady's picture

you. And President Obama has made it clear that we can't shake off the Bush wars. We've achieved Orwell's permanent state of war. Clinton or Trump, it won't matter.

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

Neither. You are just enabling the Clintons and their plutocracy. Why would you think Trump is worse? Why do you repeat Clinton talking points?

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

by a conservative, and one of the liberal justices dies.

You have given up gay rights and abortion rights for a generation. You have enshrined Citizens United for a generation.

Those aren't Clinton talking points if you are gay, or a woman, or Civil Rights matter.

That is a foreseeable result of a Trump Presidency.

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Haikukitty's picture

Please don't tell me you believe Clinton will appoint a liberal judge?

And get rid of Citizens United? The entire reason she was able to run and win (cheat) the Primary? You don't honestly believe she's getting rid of that, do you?

The Supreme Court is not the final word. Legislature can overrule the court by making new laws. The Supreme Court boogeyman is just that.

ETA: It is not your job as a citizen to triangulate your vote. It's your job to vote for the candidate who most closely approximates your views. That's the only way democracy works. (Assuming elections are fair, of course...if they aren't, democracy doesn't work at all.) If Green matches most closely to what you believe it right for the country, you vote Green. Don't worry about it. Hillary will just steal the election no matter how you vote, so you might as well vote your conscience.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

It is not your job as a citizen to triangulate your vote. It's your job to vote for the candidate who most closely approximates your views. That's the only way democracy works.

Well said, indeed!!! Clapping

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

Bisbonian's picture

That right there is the bottom line.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

I'm sorry, no. I will not be blackmailed into voting for someone I don't support simply so that we can retain a modicum of fairness in our society. Voters are so afraid of holding on to what little they have left that they refuse to see how much is being taken away by the "lesser evils" that are elected to office. Is it any wonder that so many eligible voters refuse to participate in the process? It's not a coincidence that this is the choice we end up with in almost every single election.

To me, being a liberal means that you fight for what you believe in and you don't capitulate on your principles no matter what. If that makes me unreasonable, so be it. If that makes me thoughtless or inconsiderate, so be it. As someone who has everything to lose under a Trump presidency, I honestly don't give a fuck anymore. We've all been manipulated for so long into playing defense on our home court that we're willing to throw our votes to candidates that don't deserve it.

At this point, thinking in terms of this generation is short-term. If you're at all concerned about the continued existence of the human race, the sustainability of the planet, and stopping neoliberalism in its tracks, you need to think about the long game and stop settling for the lesser of two evils, no matter how much it might hurt in the immediate future. If Hillary is elected (and god forbid re-elected in 2020), any hope of actual change from the left is dead in its tracks for at least the next 12 years. Can you survive that long with the status quo? I sure as hell can't.

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Cassiodorus's picture

And Trump being able to win the Presidency without a credible campaign? And, once having achieved that impossible act, being able to foist his agenda upon a hostile Congress, and a hostile public?

Did the soothsayers foresee those two events as well?

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

the harder you clap, the more votes Trump loses.

She is already out there proposing more means testing. First Obama sends us the bill to pay for an expansion of Medicaid instead of single payer for all, and then shillary proposes an expansion pell and student loans in place of free university for all. As a part of the last vestiges of a successful and dying middle class, let me just say fuck that. I am not going to pay to send other people's children to college when I paid for my three grandkids. As a part of this shrinking middle class, I am tired of handing over my money to the .01%, paying for their wars, and paying for the basic needs of a population of poor people that they keep expanding all the while being expected to pay for my fucking self and my family. This is the recipe for how to make Republicans. Bernie's inclusiveness of the benefits is how you make Democrats.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

non-white is a foreseeable result of a Clinton presidency. Furthermore you have absolutely no idea who Clinton might appoint. You don't know if her appointees would be better than Trump's.

On the other hand, we have her history to make some educated guesses. My view is discussed in an essay I wrote about it, but the summary version is this: I think any appointments she makes are going to be as bad for civil rights as anybody Trump puts up, particularly with respect to privacy and the police state.

Believe it or not abortion and gay marriage aren't the only two issues SCOTUS considers. While those issues are incredibly important there are others, and in most of those other cases Hillary's history indicates she'll be as conservative in her appointments as any GOPer. SCOTUS is a bogus argument for Hillary.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

Believe it or not abortion and gay marriage aren't the only two issues SCOTUS considers. While those issues are incredibly important there are others, and in most of those other cases Hillary's history indicates she'll be as conservative in her appointments as any GOPer. SCOTUS is a bogus argument for Hillary.

And that's before one even figures in the fact that once she's got the votes of the progressive Trump-fearers, all those progressive pro-choice and pro-LGBT rhetorics will evaporate like smoke. Her fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant voter base will align with her Goldman Sachs bosses, and we'll get full-blown conservative budgeting, social policy, and SCOTUS justices. Our feelings and concerns will be in the same garbage can as us.

Bomb Diablo Bomb

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Cassiodorus's picture

How would you construct a "Clinton is better than Trump" argument that actually DID take into account her periodic willingness to throw her constituencies under the bus?

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

thanatokephaloides's picture

How would you construct a "Clinton is better than Trump" argument that actually DID take into account her periodic willingness to throw her constituencies under the bus?

I can't and won't.

To me, her willingness to throw her friends under the bus essentially cripples any attempt to depict her as being somehow better than Trump. (Or anyone else, for that matter.)

Sad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Arrow's picture

My take away from Vince Kelley's article.

To have control of the levers of power with little of no restraint.

Trump would never have that.

As far as the Supreme's go, effective counter-balance exists in the senate towards radical right nominees (think Carswell or Bork).

The 'greater evil' is an effective Neo-Liberal pushing that agenda with impunity.

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I want a Pony!

Centaurea's picture

It is not at all clear that Obama's current pick for SCOTUS, Merrick Garland, would vote to overturn Citizens United. I don't know whom Clinton would nominate, but I would tend to assume it would be someone of similar ilk as an Obama nominee.

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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

Garland is Orrin Hatch's first choice for the SC and Obama went along with him. Why?

I think Obama should immediately withdraw Garland's name from consideration so that he doesn't get confirmed during the lame duck session...Leaving the Court 4 - 4 is better than Garland in my view

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

"liberal" as one of Obama's justices. I think his nominees represent the extreme leftmost she'd be willing to tolerate, and only then if pushed.

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I expressed my opinion. Where the hell was I spouting Clinton talking points?

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In most states the margins at the top of the ticket will be 10% plus. 5% for Stein makes no difference in Texas, California or New York.

So to avoid the LEV problem Stein says the following:
2 weeks from the general election I will ask my supporters in any state with 5% to support Hillary Clinton. I will compete actively in all states where the margin is more than 10.

It is absurd to say there is no difference between Trump and Clinton that matters. Unless you don't give a damn about gay rights, abortion rights and Civil Rights, the Scalia seat alone represents an enourmous difference.

There is a way out of that trap. But ignoring it is the path toward marginalization one Sanders long ago decided to avoid.

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Cassiodorus's picture

Clinton is running a real campaign. Trump isn't.

Oh, and as for Clinton's promises? Here I defer to Doug Henwood, author of the Clinton biography My Turn:

Hillary is a model of position production, but there’s little reason to trust any of her proposals. I’ve chosen instead to look at her history, which is not inspiring. Should she become president, her administration will be little different from Obama’s in its fiscal tightness at home and its obsession with secrecy. And, based on her time at State, it would be more likely to bomb and invade abroad. (p. 125)

Since Clinton's positions (outside of her Goldwater Girl background) are mere pablum for the masses, you might reflect upon the supposed basis upon which Clinton is somehow "better" than Trump -- an authoritarian who runs a syndicate and who allows you to chew on her garbage while her control of elite avenues of power is tight and her actual positions are shrouded in secrecy, versus an authoritarian buffoon who says rude things and who won't get anything done as President given his tendency to piss off "important people."

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

thanatokephaloides's picture

It is absurd to say there is no difference between Trump and Clinton that matters.

False. For all practical intents and purposes, Clinton is Trump. Yes, Clinton knows better than to make direct racist statements in public. She's more polished than Trump is, by a long shot. But from any practical governing viewpoint, she's as close to the same as not to matter. No one has any business placing any credence whatsoever in any progressive position she's taking now. Once she has her votes, she'll govern as her permanent backers -- Wall Street and the evangelical Protestant Christian community -- demand.

Unless you don't give a damn about gay rights, abortion rights and Civil Rights, the Scalia seat alone represents an enormous difference.

No, it doesn't. She'll nominate the same lawyers for that slot that Trump would -- or those even further to the social right. Her professed positions on gay rights, abortion rights and civil rights will evaporate like smoke as soon as she no longer needs us progressives for at least three more years.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but..... we really are dealing with a crap cereal vs. shit cereal "choice" here.

Sad

note: I may well be guilty of un-earned disparagement of Donald Trump in this Comment.

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

She will have exposed herself as a fraud and I will never vote for her.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

or civil rights. She's not going to do anything positive on any of those issues unless she is forced to for political gain. Once she secures POTUS she won't have to pander to people foolish enough to believe her anymore.

And by the way "civil rights" is more than just "racial justice for African-Americans." It includes a host of issues like criminal law enforcement, surveillance, and so on. SCOTUS hears cases on more issues than just abortion, gay rights and meager efforts as remedying our past sins regarding treatment of PoC. On a variety of these issues we have Clinton's decidedly very right-wing history to inform us exactly what kind of nominee she'd make (a terrible one, at least as bad as Trump).

The SCOTUS argument is terrible.

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always jam tomorrow, but never jam today.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

bend over and take it in the ass. Let's just keep doing what we've been doing and hope for a different result. Maybe next time, the ass-fucking won't hurt so bad.

Until and unless Americans stand up and say enough is enough, we will continue down this slide with criminals like hrc getting off scott free for compromising the United States security and people like Philando Castile, Alton Sterling, Tamir Rice, Michael Brown, Sandra Bland, Trayvon Martin, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., continue to be profiled and murdered while black. People like Chelsea Manning (already jailed), Ed Snowden, Julian Assange, etc., etc., etc., etc., will be jailed for revealing wrongdoing by our own government.

No, thank you. I'm done with the establishment. I will never vote hrc and if that means Herr Drumpf wins, then so be it. The consequences for those actions do not rest on my shoulders and my one vote. Nor do they rest on anyone's shoulders and their one vote. The consequences of those actions will rest on the shoulders of the oligarchy who has made greed their master and brought about the choices they have presented for validation. I will not validate them.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

Cassiodorus's picture

No, thank you. I'm done with the establishment. I will never vote hrc and if that means Herr Drumpf wins, then so be it.

When it comes to "stopping Trump," the nice liberals view us as all-powerful (because, of course, we are to be scapegoated should Trump's "opposition" happen to lose.) When it comes to providing any achievement for Jill Stein or a candidate for any other new party we might choose (like, say, 5% of the vote and FEC funding), we are to be viewed as powerless.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

thanatokephaloides's picture

How wonderful that people are so willing to bend over and take it in the ass. Let's just keep doing what we've been doing and hope for a different result. Maybe next time, the ass-fucking won't hurt so bad.

And maybe Clintons will graciously allow us a spot of Astroglide this time! /snarque

Diablo

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Raggedy Ann's picture

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

I find lately in the past few years that some of his positions have ossified into immobility. He may well talk a good line, but he seems (to me) to pull back when the argument reaches the point of calling for action.

Maybe this is realism speaking on his part. I know people easily talk but have great difficulty initiating the walk. I end up feeling that the effort to oppose becomes meaningless when this happens. Trusting what someone says becomes all the more difficult. Acting upon what someone else says becomes impossible.

It is thus with Chomsky. He's been very critical of Hillary and Bill in the past. For him to now call for supporting the Clintons only erodes my trust in his words.

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Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.

Raggedy Ann's picture

agree with your last sentence. They are trying to convince us to vote lesser of evils. So sad that people are willing to sacrifice their convictions for hrc. Such a tragedy. I will not succumb. I just emailed Bernie about the disappointment I will endure if he endorses her after all this. I couldn't stay silent. I never can.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

for the truly excellent work - in the face of either marginalization or outright hostility - he has done over the decades.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

Pluto's Republic's picture

…that you know has been snatched and replaced by the pods. My thoughts always drift to the melancholy adage:

"First they came for the economists…." etceteras.

Until I can prove otherwise, I'm going with the Body Snatchers theory. (Or perhaps it's a mind virus. Or conceivably, these unfortunates could have been painted by a stupid ray from outer space.)

Whatever it is, I'm seeing a distinct demographic emerging here: Men of a certain age. (I'm looking at you, Paul Krugman). It's the same demographic as the most vulnerable mid-life victims of Hate Radio in the US. This same demographic is now being plagued by surge of untimely deaths — in the US and nowhere else on the planet.

[ White Middle Aged Americans Are Dying at a Startling Rate ]

I reject any notion that Chomsky's transformation merits intellectual consideration. This sudden calcification of his brain is part of a localized biological anomaly that is happening, noticeably, in this geographically isolated nation. As I say below in my sig line:

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

how the "Left" in America became five people in a room bickering over nothing

I would qualify that as "liberals'. Real leftists don't really exist in America.

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Cassiodorus's picture

someone from Socialist Alternative once bragged online to me that his organization had several hundred members, so you can get the scale of it from there...

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

thanatokephaloides's picture

Real leftists don't really exist in America.

Are you telling us that you don't exist, gjohnsit? Or that Galtisalie and NonnyO don't? Or that I don't?

/snark

We do exist. But almost none of us have the money or the power to be heard; Bernie's Presidential campaign is as close as most of us have come in our whole lives. And, of course, we've been "sold down the river" for Her Heinous. So I don't blame you for being disappointed and discouraged; Cat knows I, too, am all of that.

Sad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

divineorder's picture

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

has been fighting the good fight for about 60 years and has not compromised its standards. This year marks the 50th anniversary of the publication of the very influential, and widely read and discussed, Monopoly Capital by Baran & Sweezy. Just because the left has been rendered invisible for most Americans doesn't mean it doesn't exist, (though in reduced numbers and power).

Those associated with this publication and its publishing arm have had worldwide influence.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

Aardvark's picture

This thought flashed through my head on reading the title of this essay.

It was the Sound Pattern of English (1968) which Morris Halle and Noam Chomsky wrote which set the stage for a whole paradigm in the study of the sound patterns of human languages and the theoretical basis for explaining how the brain learns and represents language.

Simpler times. That theory of language competency is more or less dead. The boldest attempts to replace it failed. Now we are waiting for the Galileo of neuroscience to write the rules by which to decode the "signal" (yeah, sure, it's basically noise) of the electrical discharges in the brain, and something like a Newton to figure out how to calculate with those rules, and maybe we might gain some insight into how the brain maps language.

Peace and love be with you, reader.

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Centaurea's picture

I read Halle and Chomsky as a linguistics major back in the early '70s. I remember being so fascinated with knowing how language is acquired and how memory works. At a certain point, the subject became literally mind-boggling for me. Neuroscience might attempt to reduce the "boggling", but I suspect it won't be able to give us complete answers to those questions.

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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

Aardvark's picture

in the sense that research has thrown out much of what students writing PhDs at MIT and UMass accepted as axiomatic for their explanations.

The most important idea to go out the window is parsimony. That is, the idea that the human brain stores language information in the most efficient way possible. This to me was nothing more than a justification for the approach of generative linguistics, using rules or principles and parameters. The data now suggests, that memory or competency - two different things, to be sure - are inefficient.

It was comforting to write all those rules out on paper, like doing a crossword puzzle. But I knew then it wasn't real.

I am certain that the full story will emerge, but it will happen due to research in other areas of neuroscience first. Why I think that is a long story.

Peace and love be with you, reader.

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which would explain why Chomsky allowed him to glom onto his penumbra of fame

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/29/noam-chomsky-john-halle-and-henry...

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I ask because I will be very surprised if she carries any far western or mountain state other than CA and HA, and she will have stolen it in CA. The primary was a dress rehearsal.

Including OR and WA. Don't forget that the PNW is ground zero for opposition to GMO and Monsanto, and Hillary is Monsanto's baby, to the tune of millions delivered to her campaign by the same operative who managed to shut down the anti-trust lawsuit which Eric Holder was at one time planning to bring against Monsanto. I would urge Sanders supporters in those two states especially to be contacting their superdelegate elected officials about voting for the candidate whom the voters chose. Clintons ain't the only people who can take names.

Meanwhile, I can't help wondering if former Gov. Johnson and his Libertarians might be bigger factors this year than anyone now realizes. You do remember that Cruz carried Utah. One more nudie photo of Mrs. T #3 coming out and I think it likely that Johnson might win in Utah, and possibly ID as well. If Johnson can remained centered on his natural western state base, avoiding the seductions of invites to the CFR and the like, if he can manage to portray the two major candidates as eastern elites who don't care about us, without insulting Trump supporters, he might could do very well in the west. He may have been saddled with Gov. Weld to prevent him from doing just that.

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Mary Bennett

Chomsky/Halle link, but for them to actually think that incrementalism is going to get the Left what it wants in 2016 is surely a complete loon, either that or they've been living in a cave somewhere and do not listen to anything that goes on in this country. That is what we on the Left have been doing now for the last 50 years and where has it gotten us?! To a Trump candidacy, to a Shillary candidacy full of corruption and lies that we're just supposed to swallow whole because we have to beat a man she herself put up to run? Fuck them and fuck that. Maybe they should have written that article 50 years ago and called it good, why restate the same damned insanity this cycle unless you're bought and sold?

As for a Trump presidency being the fault of the Left, these two can go pound fucking sand. That's an outright lie of the worst sort, a cynical ploy to scare the shit out of us. As for the statements about the wars and what Trump will do, what about what Shillary HAS ALREADY done? Not one peep about that. Liars and shills, they breed like rabbits in this dumbed down country.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Cassiodorus's picture

You've got the essence of Trump-phobia in a nutshell.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

I take voting very seriously, (although I now wonder if my government actually counts it).

Were I to vote for Hillary and she wins, all in the name of defeating Trump, I own responsibility for what she does in office. Her stance on backing Wall Street, fracking, TPP etc are so destructive that I cannot ever vote for her. I am NOT responsible for Trump if he wins, because I won't vote for him either. I can control my vote and my voice - it's all I got.

Jill for Prez.

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If you buy it, you own it.

However, I don't necessarily think there is no place for strategic voting. If it looks like Johnson might carry NY, I am voting for him--he is after all calling for a non-interventionist foreign policy--in the hopes this mess might end up in the House, which no way will elect Clinton.

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Mary Bennett

Cassiodorus's picture

What is the ultimate goal? "Lesser of two evils" strategic voting pretends to minimize harm while at the same time destroying the possibility that anything good might come of the electoral process.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

and NOT lesser of two evils., and only as part of a larger strategy. If either, or some new, alternative party candidate could win a couple or three states--I would think Stein has a fighting chance to carry VT--this election could end up in the House, which I doubt would elect Hillary.

I have no intention of voting for Trump or Clinton, as I told a Democratic petitioner in no uncertain terms the other day. He was collecting Working Family Party signatures for our Asssemblyman. Judging from his rather chagrined reaction I would guess that mine is not the only voice he has heard on that topic. It might not hurt to be letting our local Democratic Committee persons know how we feel about their precious nominee. I also wonder why the Working Families Party cannot simply, itself, nominate Sanders.

I like all I have read of the Green's platform and parts of the libertarian's, especially the call for a non-interventionist foreign party, but I expect I will vote for whichever one, Stein or Johnson, I think can do better in NY. A large enough vote for alternative options might at least convince some representatives and senators that kneejerk voting for the winner's agenda won't help their careers.

Revelations about both candidates and families will continue to be unrolled by both sides. It seems unlikely that either of the two presumptive nominees will become more popular than they now. Also, we don't know yet what will happen at, and outside of, the conventions. If Killary is true to form, she could well have her minions open fire on protestors and demonstrators, under cover of some sort of dubious legality. Then there is Cleveland and open carry. God only knows what might happen there.

I would suggest that the goals need to be, in order of importance:

Deny Clinton the presidency.

Make sure whomever is elected, Clinton or Trump, is hampered as much as possible in getting their agenda--World War III in the case of Clinton---through Congress. That is, I suggest, best accomplished by putting the fear of God into our elected representatives., and a large enough vote for alternative party candidates might do just that. If you don't vote, you can be safely ignored, but if you vote Green or Libertarian, that indicates you are paying attention and possibly taking names.

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Mary Bennett

He has government executive experience unlike Trump. He is not a raging warmonger like Clinton.
He has the fault of a right wing domestic policy, but so does Clinton. At least his foreign policy is better.

As for abortion and gay rights, if he is a true Libertarian, he will consider tose as personal choices that the government shouldn't oppose.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

mouselander's picture

... on the same subject, written by Andrew Smolski, appeared last week in CounterPunch. I especially liked this bit:

Even odder about the retort that the Republicans are worse is that Chomsky says in a BBC interview that “in many ways [Obama] is worse” than Bush or Blair. He then goes on to list ways that Obama is worse, such as the escalation of the conflict in Afghanistan which was destabilizing Pakistan. This is the same Obama who Chomsky said was the “lesser evil” against John McCain. So, Obama is the lesser evil, but is more evil than 2000’s more evil Bush, when Chomsky was exclaiming that Gore was the lesser evil. We can only imagine how evil our LEV will be if this poor political strategy is allowed to limp along much more.

So it turns out that 2008's Lesser Evil was in fact more evil than 2000's Greater Evil. Funny how that works. It's like the yard markers keep getting moved down the field in a rightward direction, so that today's fire-breathing reactionary is tomorrow's sensible moderate, and today's moderate is tomorrow's craven peacenik appeaser.

I agree with the central point that Trump has no reasonable chance of winning under any realistic scenario, so the whole spoiler argument is completely ridiculous and non-applicable on its face. Truly, there has never been a better time or more compelling need to begin building a viable political entity outside the boundaries of the "two wings of the same predatory bird" duopoly. And perhaps more importantly, as Smolski persuasively argues, (allegedly) Lesser Evilism today will inevitably translate into Greater Evilism tomorrow. Less Evilism, period, is what we should all be striving for.

#ImWithJill

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inactive account

Bisbonian's picture

Not in my lifetime, anyway. This is our chance to kill the two party system.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

shaharazade's picture

and read Chomsky. He pissed me off as he was right on about issues and what was wrong but he never ever purposed any solution to make the 'left' effective at organizing or stopping this shit. I just tuned him out at some point. Sorry, I know he is an icon of the left's intelligentsia but to me a ordinary prole he was just another liberal elitist ivory tower theorist posing as a leftist. No doubt a good linguist. I also was not impressed with Eugene McCarthy another ivory tower so called lefty icon. In other words to me this brand of lefties are part of the problem. I'm not surprised at all that he's joined the fear the Trump so called left. Shame on him he's not stupid he knows what's up.

I'm not buying it. What kind of a leftist hawks this illogical cowardice? Why use his linguistic skills to instill fear when it's obvious that lesser evilism is just double speak of the worst order. Give me Chris Hedges any day. He at least tells it like it is. Here a great article about the Trump v. Hillary con.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/con_vs_con_20160619
Con vs.Con

The liberal class refuses to fight for the values it purports to care about. It is paralyzed and trapped by the induced panic manufactured by the systems of corporate propaganda. The only pressure within the political system comes from corporate power. With no counterweight, with no will on the part of the liberal class to defy the status quo, we slide deeper and deeper into corporate despotism. The repeated argument of the necessity of supporting the “least worse” makes things worse.

This part of this excellent article sums up my disregard for a lot of the so called liberal left. Like Krugman when push comes to shove they bring it on home and play the game.

Liberals are employed by corporate elites in universities, the media, systems of entertainment and advertising agencies to perpetuate corporate power. Many are highly paid. They have a financial stake in corporate dominance. The educated elites in the liberal class are capitalism’s useful idiots. They are tolerated because they contribute, by discrediting the left, to the maintenance of corporate power. They do not think or function independently. And they are given platforms in academia and on the airwaves to marginalize and denounce those who do think and function independently.

Here's Hedges on the Democratic party and this farce of an election. I used to think Chris Hedges was too pessimistic about what is going down poltically. Not any more. He gives me hope at this point. I have seen with my own lying eyes what the Democratic party is about. Nothing I will give my consent to. I'm optimistic democratic change will come it may take awhile. When it does it will come from people globally who have had enough not from withing the complicit factions in the one party neoliberal state were living under.

The Clintons and the Democratic Party establishment are banking that the liberal class will surrender once again to corporate power and genuflect before neoliberal ideology. Bernie Sanders will be trotted out, like a chastened sheepdog, to coax his followers back into the holding pen. The moral outrage of his supporters over Wall Street crimes, wholesale state surveillance, the evisceration of civil liberties, the failure to halt the devastation of the ecosystem, endless war, cuts to Social Security and austerity, will, the Democratic Party elites expect, airily evaporate. They may not be wrong. Given the history of the liberal class, they are probably right.

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Sanders has pledged that he will support the corporatist military hawk Hillary Clinton in the 2016 general presidential election. Sanders stirs up legitimate progressive energy and popular anger and then “funnels it back into a dead political system,” Hedges observes.

the above blockquote was from a Paul Street article that references Hedges.
http://www.paulstreet.org/?p=1560

i read your Hedges link but in his post he links to Paul Street. i did a keyword search for Sanders on his site. i've never read his stuff before but, between Hedges and Street, it certainly leaves you wondering if the Sanders campaign was a setup to corral the more leftist Democrats back in the fold for Clinton. it kind of makes sense given that the more leftward Democrats and those independents who left the party would be very lukewarm toward a Clinton candidacy. they needed someone to her left to run to gin up the leftward side of the base? i ended that with a question mark because i, frankly, don't know what to believe anymore. so do i believe Sanders' good faith intentions or an ultra cynical view with his impending endorsement of Clinton. sincere as Sanders may have been with his campaign his loss will certainly be used to Clinton's advantage as some of his supporters will submit to their fear of Trump. gah!!

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