Breaking: Repeal of Godwin's Law!

Before celebrating repeal, let's establish what Godwin's Law actually was, and, more importantly, was not. First, Godwin's Law was not a prohibition or condemnation of mentioning Hitler or Nazis or the Holocaust. Heck, it's not even a claim that you lose a debate if you mention Hitler. But...even if it were: So the eff what? Surname aside, Godwin had no more authority over what gets posted on the internet and the effect of posts on the internet than you or I.

Second, Godwin's Law, in its entirety, is simply:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1. {In this context 1 = 100%}

In other words, the longer a thread on a message board is becoming, the more likely it is that some poster will make some comparison involving Hitler. So the eff what? The longer anything verbal becomes, the more likely that some poster or other will compare something or other to another something or other, be it puddles to lakes, or Hillary to Medusa or turds to rainbows. Common sense, no? See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem But: So the eff what? Does that mean no one on the internet should mention lakes or Medusa or rainbows? Or the Hitler turd? (Note, "the Hitler turd" is a metaphor, or comparison, involving Hitler and therefore violates Godwin's so-called law.)

After all, if we political posters were capable of inventing an infinite number of apt metaphors and similies, we'd all be too busy writing the Great American Novel to post and we'd all be from Texas, like Dr. Phil, spouting folksy metphors like "This weather is hotter than the hinges of the door to Hell." Besides, eliminating mention of some marvelous being pooping rainbows would likely end all internet political discourse in the universe! Then, where would we Caucusers be (other than actually getting stuff done)? Oh, and LMA (Law, My Ass): It's Godwin's Meaningless Statement of Probability, or Godwin's Duuuu-uuuh or Godwin's Truism (sometimes referred to hereinafter as "Godwin's Whatever"):

tru·ism....
a statement that is obviously true and says nothing new or interesting
"the truism that you get what you pay for"
synonyms: platitude, commonplace, cliché, stock phrase, banality, (old) chestnut, (old) saw, axiom, bromide....
Logic a proposition that states nothing beyond what is implied by any of its terms.

(unattributed definition yielded when I googled "truism," with deletions indicated by edited as indicated by.... )

According to wiki, Godwin created Godwin's Whatever in 1990. (Don't trust any internet truism pushing thirty.) When I first noted Godwin's Whatever, maybe around 2006, Mr. Google passed me an article stating that Godwin had said that he had created Godwin's Whatever to see how fast a meme would spread on the internet. That was it. Nothing deep. Years later, however, I noted that Godwin's explanation of his motivation was (or perhaps had metamorphosed into) something to the effect of "I wanted to reduce the number of casual references to the Holocaust."

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I ask you: Had Godwin's original intent actually been to reduce the number of casual references to the Holocaust, wouldn't Godwin, a lawyer, have worded Godwin's "Law" very differently than the language quoted in the second paragraph of this essay? But, for the sake of discussion on a discussion board, let's assume hypothetically that Godwin's original intention had indeed been reducing the number of casual references to the Holocaust because Godwin believes that such references disrespect the memory of the victims of the Holocaust. So the eff what?

Godwin's opinion would be the opinion of one person out of billions of people--and you know what internet posters say about opinions. (Why, yes, I do see the irony; Why do you ask?) Besides: If anything, Godwin's Law exponentially increased the number of casual references to the Holocaust, many of which have ranged from themselves being knee-jerk, mindlessly inane to ugly, authoritative attempts at shaming and censoring peers for speech, and most likely, political speech. Doesn't that disrespect the memory of the eleven or twelve million people Hitler had killed much more than would posting, say, that someone's painting is as boring as any painting that Hitler ever produced? And, riddle me this: Exactly what kind of persons, especially politicians, would benefit most if a law did ban comparisons involving Hitler?

In any event, no matter what the original intent of Godwin's Law, it's way past time for it to go. Given how much harm of various kinds it's done, Godwin should have repealed Godwin's law long ago, regardless of his original motivation for creating it. Inasmuch as he hasn't, here's the really news: Vested in me (and you) is every bit as much authority to amend or repeal internet laws, memes, truisms or whatever as was vested in Godwin to enact an internet "law" in the first instance. Yes, 1 = 100% as much authority. (You've always had the power, dear reader, as have I.) Soooo.....

By the authority vested in me to amend internet laws, I hereby amend Godwin's Law by adding at the end thereof the euphemistic, but sincere, question "So the eff what?" As a result of said amendment, Godwin's Law, in its entirety, now reads:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1. So the eff what?

Second: By the authority vested in me to repeal internet laws, I hereby repeal Godwin's Law, as amended. Nothing herein shall be construed as condoning any disrespect of any victim or victims of the Holocaust.

This post is the official exegesis, amendment and repeal of Godwin's Truism Law. When (not if) anyone attempts to use Godwin's Law to shame/censor you, provide the wannabe censor with a link to this post as authoritative evidence of the amendment and/or repeal of Godwin's Law and then continue with your original train of thought, without getting distracted, deflected or hijacked. You're welcome!

First Addendum to Law Repealing Godwin's Law: Remembering the victims of the Holocaust every January 27 or more freqently, especially by visiting a holocaust memorial, or, if none exists in your vicinity, bringing one into existence, would be a far more effective antidote to disrespecting the memories of the victims of the Holocaust than attempting to shame/censor your peers by invoking Godwin's Law. https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhibitions/online-exhibitions/special...

The first video below (after the stills) is of a song that recites laws that have all the same legal force and effect as Godwin's Law, namely, zero. The artist speak-singing in the video created the role of King Arthur in the Broadway musical, after he had captured the heart of the then-recently widowed Elizabeth Taylor from Eddie Fisher during the filming of Cleopatra. Sadly, they later divorced. Twice. All of which is to say that the full story of Cleopatra and Antony never ends well. Neither does the full story of any marriage of Elizabeth Taylor. Neither does any complete version of the Arthurian legend, at least not until return, if any, of the once and future king. Neither does invocation of Godwin's Whatever (now repealed, as amended) in an attempt to shame/censor political speech. (Knock, knock. Who's there? Orange! Orange who? Orange you glad I don't explain my reasons for posting every video I post?)

Long before they met

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h7E5rtnFH4 width:400 height:400]

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vt0B0bZVM8 width:400 height:400]

-30-
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TheOtherMaven's picture

which, as Theodore Sturgeon himself said often in later years, should have been called "Sturgeon's Observation" or "Sturgeon's Theorem". This is the famous "90% of everything is crud". It doesn't mean that 90% (or whatever very high number you choose) is crud, or has to be crud - just that 90(x)% of whatever is unmemorable, transient, ephemeral stuff that will be completely forgotten within ten years.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

@TheOtherMaven

I guess it was supposed to seem like a law of probability or some other discipline. The nightmare of conscientious lawmakers is unintended consequences, but Godwin doesn't seem to care. Either he's unaware of it, or reveling in his 27 years of 15 minutes of fame.

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Wink's picture

@TheOtherMaven

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

TheOtherMaven's picture

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

mimi's picture

thinks it's not worth commenting on it, because it's too ridiculous. To amend or not to amend is not the question. To be stupid or not to be stupid that is the question.

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@mimi
questions about it are moot.

Erdogan and Merkel can both relieve themselves in their hats for all I care. However, I would be amazed if a head of state commented on another's non-violation of a non-law pertaining to the likelihood of mentioning Hitler on long internet threads because some fool with no idea of what the law actually states asked about it.

It even surprises me how many people have posted here about Godwin's Law while not seeming to have a clue what the "Law" states. The idea that someone questioned a head of state about it while being totally ignorant of what the law actually states is mind boggling to me.

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Wink's picture

@HenryAWallace
"given" that the first to mention Hitler / Nazis / Holocost loses the argument. That may not be the "Law" but it's what's taken as the Law, or the "given."

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

@Wink

Apparently, millions of people are willing to babble on about Godwin's Law and even bully people about it, without having a clue what Godwin's Law states. Good thing I repealed it!

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Wink's picture

@HenryAWallace
in, but still have a few 'net buds that often "remind me" about Godwin. The meme will take decades to overturn.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

@Wink

it (and unpacking it) some time or the bullying and hesitation to post what one thinks will never end. As for your uninformed fellow posters...

This post is the official exegesis, amendment and repeal of Godwin's Truism Law. When (not if) anyone attempts to use Godwin's Law to shame/censor you, provide the wannabe censor with a link to this post as authoritative evidence of the amendment and/or repeal of Godwin's Law and then continue with your original train of thought, without getting distracted, deflected or hijacked. You're welcome!

BTW, Godwin's prediction contains no mention at all of Nazis or the Holocaust, only Hitler.

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mimi's picture

@HenryAWallace
German - Turkish relations and the picture of Merkel and Erdogan both peeing into their hats has not entered my consciousness before. Thank You for injecting me to "reality". The last thing I care about is Godwin's law, amended or not, repealed by you or not, and it being understood by me and others or not.

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@mimi

which is a very different thing from not caring about Erdogan and Merkel as individuals.

Second, you do at least seem to care about Godwin's law because you've posted about it before today and you were one of the first to post on this thread. But, I am glad you do not care about a fake law. I don't think anyone should be intimidated by a fake law, which is the point.

Just FTR, HenryWallace was obviously male, but I have never indicated my gender, one way or another. I also did not say "pee."
Diablo

ETA: Actually, my prior post made an express distinction between Merkel and Erdogan as individuals and as heads of state and I said nothing about international relations.

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mimi's picture

@HenryAWallace
and misunderstood. I didn't feel offended, just confused, tired of the whole issue and therefore impatient. Really, it's nothing worth to continue talking about. Forget about it.

That was not that much of a comfortable, relaxing nice weekend here on C99p.

I am already in the next day. So what the heck. Now I care for reading the news about Merkel, Trump and Erdogan.

Have a good Monday.

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@mimi

for yourself what you care about and do not care about. And, of course, you are under no obligation to post on any thread or to keep posting on any thread, especially if you think the essay topic is ridiculous. As for me, though, I do reply to people who post on threads I started.

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mimi's picture

@HenryAWallace @HenryAWallace @HenryAWallace
for the current tensions between Germany and Turkey (and other countries and Turkey). The tensions were caused through Erdogan's words about Germany's political actions. Were they posted on a blog, it would have been a brutal violation of that what goes under the name of "Godwin's Laws".

Erdogan and Merkel can both relieve themselves in their hats for all I care. However, I would be amazed if a head of state commented on another's non-violation of a non-law pertaining to the likelihood of mentioning Hitler on long internet threads because some fool with no idea of what the law actually states asked about it.

"relieving themselves in their hats" I translated into each of them both peeing into their hats. I am not familiar with that expression, but it sounded quite dismissive for a political situation that is considered serious in Europe, Germany and Turkey.

As you didn't seem to care for them, I allowed myself to say to not care for Godwin's laws. I am used to Americans not caring for European concerns or many being not able to not use Mr. Hitler and its followers as expressing their disdain about any political situation.

I hope this clears it up and hope that Mr. Godwin rest in peace in his grave.

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@mimi

Mr. Godwin does not deserve to be buried alive. (He's not dead.)

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I must say that it's been a useful meme for those preferring that nobody notices any similarities between what Hitler was in the process of enacting when forcibly stopped by multiple countries forming partnerships for the purpose and the current ongoing attempt at a hostile corporate/military global takeover by certain PTB... also seemingly attempting to prevent multiple countries from forming partnerships to stop theirs by such actions as: moving into adjoining countries, massing on their borders, patrolling their skies and seas, droning/bombing/starving their citizens and pointing rather a lot of very nasty missiles at them, while talking about adding a billion dollars worth of new nukes to their already over-stocked arsenal and building up their already insanely-huge military even more by bleeding their own people and country dry...

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Alligator Ed's picture

@mimi @Ellen North but bringing up such a recursive theme which is inescapable. Aw, gosh, why doesn't Stalin get the same notice? Maybe, comrades, we should have Stalin's Law: dissenters will be sent to the Gulags. Then you will notice a progressive diminution of online commenters. Hence a new meme: complain, tovarich, and you will be gone. Big brother has plans for you and me.

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@Alligator Ed @Alligator Ed @Alligator Ed

No, no, now that Godwin's Law's been so heroically overturned, we can now freely mention such parallels, which will terrify TPTB into becoming reformed murderers-for-profit who'll then let everybody have their countries, governments and resources back.

So it's all good now, lol.

And if not, there's Taibbi's secret weapon, which I've actually just posted about elsewhere.

http://exiledonline.com/feature-new-york-times-hack-eats-horse-sperm-pie/

The threat of that ought to help keep them in line.

Edit: and re-edit, since it's 2 AM and I'm even fuzzier than usual; never thought for a moment you were in any way excusing Hitler and I did actually understand your point. Argh, too tired to type, lol, going to bed.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Alligator Ed's picture

@Ellen North Quoting the wonderfully funny article on Michael Wines getting his due reward is the elitist description of the elite by Wines:

But this war’s epiphany may be that a lot of people around the world who drink Guinness, buy I.B.M. preferred, and drive Audis just don’t buy into Western notions of rights and responsibilities.”

I drink Guiness (extra stout of course) and owned two audis, though not simultaneously. Never did own IBM stock. I could have upped my class if only for not making the investment in Big Blue.

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@Alligator Ed

I don't pretend to read people's minds. I often remark that I am lucky if I know my own. So I don't pretend to know Godwin's motives. I very much doubt his motive was to excuse Hitler. However, I do know that what Godwin now says was his original intention is at significant variance with the wording he chose for the law. But this is about how the law is used and misused.

When someone uses Godwin's law to try to silence and/or shame you because you posted that a current politician is acting like Hitler, who does that benefit, other than the the politician who is acting like Hitler? And, of course, the jackass with the misconception of Godwin's Law who is using it to try to bully other posters because his discussion skills aren't up to anything else.

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@Alligator Ed

Stalin did not have 12 million people gassed systematically, mostly because of an accident of birth. And therein lies the rub.

Supposedly, comparison to Hitler are out of order unless whatever Hitler is being compared to is on that order of magnitude. Nothing I know of in human existence is on that order of magnitude, though. Ergo, you can't compare Hitler or Nazis to anything at all, supposedly.

Problem is, Hitler and the Nazis did a whole bunch of other things, too. And Hitler did not go straight from the War War I military to gassing eleven or twelve million people, either. That, to me, is the most important thing in 2017: What were the circumstances that gave rise to him. What did he do on the way to becoming who ended up being that people should have taken more notice of before it was too late?

What kind of sense does it make if you can't point out that someone is acting like Hitler unless, they, too, have killed 12 million humans? It's insane--not the rule itself, which is merely inane, but the way it is misinterpreted and used is insane.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@HenryAWallace

Stalin did not have 12 million people gassed systematically, mostly because of an accident of birth. And therein lies the rub.

Quite true. No, Stalin did not gas 12 million people. He starved 20,000,000 people to death--and for desert killed 10,000 Polish officers in Katyn. And we don't need to remark about his internal banishment of multiple ethnic groups thousands of miles from their homes.

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@Alligator Ed

I wonder why everyone knows about the 12 million (tho' many say 6 million, with adding "Jews") but I didn't know about the 20 million? Any idea?

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Alligator Ed's picture

@HenryAWallace

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@Alligator Ed

I mean, after World War II, we occupied Germany and also became its ally, while we bitterly fought Communism directly or by proxy in cold wars, hot wars and propaganda wars. Yet, we continue to stress Hitler's eleven or twelve million, which, of course, we definitely should, but we had Winston send Stalin's 20 million victims down the memory hole. Why?

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TheOtherMaven's picture

@HenryAWallace
The famine in Ukraine was a result of malign neglect rather than deliberate genocidal policy. And the Brits had no moral high ground to stand on, because they had done essentially the same thing to the Irish in the 1840s, to the tune of one million starved, two million emigrated.

The US was not in much better shape morally, what with its own history of violent hostility to everyone who wasn't Rich White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. They also had their own internal problems occupying their attention (the Dust Bowl years of the 1930s, a result of bad farming practices - which had been encouraged by government and market forces - during prior decades).

Incidentally, "20 million" is a high estimate favored by Ukrainians for obvious reasons - there are no accurate estimates, but the more common range is 2 to 10 million, which is still pretty damning.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

@TheOtherMaven

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@Ellen North

was that Godwin must be a RWer. Then, when I googled and saw what the law actually consisted of, I thought I was wrong. But, his explanation of curtailing casual references got me wondering again. Whatever he is, one of the bad effects of his fake law is indeed protecting bad actors. And, as the essay points out, posting even "the Hitler turd" "violates" the fake law, at least as people seem to misunderstand it. (It's hard to "violate" a prediction about the length of a thread.)

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Alligator Ed's picture

I fervently believe in the following:

This post is the official exegesis, amendment and repeal of Godwin's Truism Law. When (not if) anyone attempts to use Godwin's Law to shame/censor you, provide the wannabe censor with a link to this post as authoritative evidence of the amendment and/or repeal of Godwin's Law and then continue with your original train of thought, without getting distracted, deflected or hijacked. You're welcome!

I also dispute the peaches and cream ceremony that Glinda performed on Dorothy. This is more likely appropriate to banishment to the land of Sam Brownback and Mike Pompeo:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpL5fc2b3lg]

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@Alligator Ed

And thank you - I plan to use this a lot.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

@Alligator Ed @Alligator Ed
Everyone covets the ruby slippers. (If you let the clip I posted run, you'll come to a documentary about the slippers.) When I saw the film as a kid, though, I wanted Glinda's transport bubble and magical powers! (Of course, I intended to use them only for good.)

The book was written around 1900 and the film made in 1939, so Glinda was not worried about Brownback. (Great song choice, though. Thanks.)

Anyway, word has it that the adventurous Dorothy was made even more adventurous by her involuntary trip to the marvelous Oz and traveled the world when she grew up, settling on being a cafe singer in Paris. And, as long as she knew she could get home whenever she wanted, she was fine with living abroad. Happily Ever After.

BTW, there is a strong theory that, in the film, though not the book, the Wizard was based on FDR. If true, cheeky!

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TheOtherMaven's picture

@HenryAWallace
apart from the "Professor Marvel" sequence in Kansas, which, like all the Kansas scenes, was invented to provide a rationale for why Dorothy would "dream" about him while concussed from the twister. (MGM seriously underestimated moviegoers when they slapped that twist on the story.) If anything, movie!Wizard is more of a take on L. Frank Baum himself (reinforced by the curious fact that when shopping for a shabby-genteel coat for the "Professor Marvel" scenes, the wardrobe department purchased one that turned out to have once belonged to...L. Frank Baum).

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

@TheOtherMaven @TheOtherMaven @TheOtherMaven

Of course, by the time the movie as being made, Baum didn't need his shabby genteel coat anymore, unless his publisher had ripped him off. Which it may have.

I never read the book, and I absolutely will take your word for it. However, the FDR theory is widespread, either the Wizard or the Emerald City or both. And, I just this minute learned, while googling FDR, that references to Theodore Roosevelt were inserted into the play. I love when something like that happens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_interpretations_of_The_Wonderful... (TR)

http://plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclopedia/doc/egp.fil.065

http://www.encyclopedia.com/literature-and-arts/literature-english/ameri...

The Emerald City was the New Deal, E.Y. Harburg and The Wonderful Wizard of Oz
Authors (1990) (My browser doesn't let me grab links from pdf.)

There are more, but you get the gist.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

@HenryAWallace
It's also widely believed that the original book included references supporting Free Silver or at least bimetallism (the shoes, in the book, were silver), and topical caricatures of contemporary politicians (the Cowardly Lion = William Jennings Bryan, e.g.).

How much, if any, of this Baum intended is anybody's guess.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

@TheOtherMaven

Same thought I have when I look at King Tut's gold sandals.

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