From the Age of Utopia to the Age of Nature

Philosophical innovation from, say, the Enlightenment (i.e. from the mid-18th century) to the Seventies has focused upon a set of concepts which I've been calling, for the sake of brevity, utopia. Sure, calling it "utopia" means that, when I suggest that the historic period cited above was the Age of Utopia, I need to clarify what I mean by utopia if I am to have an audience at all. Utopia, as discussed here, is the intersection of human desire and human world-picture. Standard definitions of utopia as an imagined "perfect" society fit in well with this definition: there are no guarantees with utopia, and the urge to create a perfect society could just as well backfire and create a dystopian Hell instead. At any rate, here I am thinking of this age, from the Enlightenment to the Seventies, as the Age of Utopia.

Utopias are also commonly recognized by their specific forms. There were utopias to be found in works of fiction, the most famous of which is Thomas More's (1516) Utopia, describing an imaginary fictional island somewhere off the coast of (it was imagined) Brazil. There were utopian communities -- one of the best books on these came out last year, Chris Jennings' Paradise Now, about utopian communities in the United States before the Civil War. And there were utopian visions of the whole world, especially as popularized by Edward Bellamy's (1888) volume Looking Backward, a book about an idyllic world of technical wizardry which anticipated the invention of the telephone. (One of my favorites among these is Elizabeth Burgoyne-Corbett's (1889) New Amazonia, a feminist utopian dream in which people travel around on canals, live for hundreds of years, and subscribe to vegetarianism.) All of this is worth investigating, though here I'm interested in it as a series of examples of utopian thought, of visions of a far-better society existing in a far-better world. These visions, I would argue, had an especially strong hold on social thought in the historical time period in questions.

Now, there are other, related concepts, which have been used to describe the particular period I've named, from the Enlightenment to the Seventies -- I suppose we could call it the Age of Reason or the Age of Progress or the Age of Development or (in a less idealizing vein) the Age of Nice Rationalizations for Conquest. Each of those names for the period between the Enlightenment and the Seventies deserves its day in court and its fifteen minutes of fame. But none of those other names would convey the philosophical spirit, nor the incredible risk, which was undertaken during the period. If you are a visual learner and you want an illustration of the risks once attendant upon the Age of Utopia, think for instance of Hitler during World War II with his utopian dream of a Thousand-Year Empire. (Hitler, I might add, gets a short passage in the anthology The Faber Book of Utopias in which some of his writings are included.)

Now, arguably, we are no longer in the Age of Utopia today, although the shadow of the Age of Utopia certainly extends over what we do today. Perhaps we simply live in an era of collective denial about the Age of Utopia. At any rate, in this era thought appears constrained by the Margaret Thatcher notion that "there is no alternative," meaning of course that the shape of society is no longer up for grabs and that the masses can stop dreaming of utopia. For that matter, if "there is no alternative," the masses can stop dreaming of anything at all outside of an unfair exchange for their individual market values, considered separately, which is what you see in today's economy, in which the intellectual might of our society is put to work driving for Uber or serving coffee at the drive-thru at Starbucks. There's a fantastic piece on what happened to utopia in Baffler #19, titled "Of Flying Cars and the Declining Rate of Profit," which explains a fair portion of why the Age of Utopia is no longer with us. And, as for the "antiglobalization" protesters who had "another world is possible" on their banners, here is my question -- is another means of resistance besides protest possible?

We still haven't reasoned through the end of the Age of Utopia to any significant extent. Politics, for instance, is rendered irrelevant by the collapse of utopian energies. The "Left" without its utopian energies collapses into the neoliberal reliance upon policy fine-tuning as a series of better public relations gestures and the rhetorical flourishes of the likes of Barack Obama. The "Right" becomes an equal gesture of futility based on regressive nationalism but still completely subservient to those who are able to rent government as a commodity. The "Two-Party System" becomes an advertising competition between two firms both of which are selling a similar product in many ways.

The last utopia of note to contest the utopia of money (which is what capitalism was before it became "there is no alternative") was the utopia of a classless society. Within this utopia, within the various ideas of communists and socialists and anarchists and quite a number of other outside-the-box thinkers, was the utopia of Karl Marx. The utopia of Marx was a utopia of freedom -- Marx argued in the Grundrisse that the era after capitalism would be a "realm of freedom," as a product of the natural outcome of history. He head a three-stage version of history lined up in this regard:

Relations of personal dependence (entirely spontaneous at the outset) are the first social forms, in which human productive capacity develops only to a slight extent and at isolated points. Personal independence founded on objective [sachlicher] dependence is the second great form, in which a system of general social metabolism, of universal relations, of all-round needs and universal capacities is formed for the first time. Free individuality, based on the universal development of individuals and on their subordination of their communal, social productivity as their social wealth, is the third stage (p. 95, Volume 28 of the Marx-Engels Collected Works).

Precapitalism, then, was the first stage, capitalism was the second stage, and postcapitalism was the third stage. In this regard Marx's ultimate ideal, an ideal he attributed to the human race as a whole, was "free individuality" and the "universal development of individuals," and he thought capitalism got in the way of this by requiring that everyone enter into commodity culture and develop some sort of "objective dependence" upon the relations of commodity culture, upon bosses and landlords and owners and husbands and so on.

Of course, the people who most successfully discredited the Marx ideal of "free individuality" were some of the same people who claimed to believe in it, the Russians who decided that the way to do it was to take over a country through a coup d'etat and install a Joseph Stalin in power. The effect of this was of course to impose a sort of universal serfdom in Russia; precisely the opposite of the realm of freedom. If it wasn't for Russian nationalism (something the honest anticommunist philosopher and onetime Russian Isaiah Berlin discusses at length), Stalin's successors, either Khrushchev or Brezhnev or those who came afterward, probably would have given up and applied for admittance to NATO a long time ago. Meanwhile the ideological apparatus of the capitalist system has grown so effective that very few people even dream of the classless society anymore.

The Age of Utopia may be almost entirely faded away, but if the current output of our intellectuals is any measure, however, we may be seeing a new age of thought: the Age of Nature. The Age of Nature will be characterized by a singular set of events: the climate catastrophes of abrupt climate change. The Age of Nature will be characterized by continued rethinking of the idea of nature, so as to develop a meaningful strategy for climate change. Right now what we have for a climate change strategy is "here's a cap-and-trade scheme or a carbon tax, and please kindly fuck off so we may continue to pursue profit" -- but this too will change.

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of Utopia. I have always thought it kind of a defeatist strategy.

Wink

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Oldest Son Of A Sailor's picture

Famine on the land and sea, with the sea rapidly swallowing the land, will dispose of the climate change denial...

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"Do you realize the responsibility I carry?
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."

~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Oldest Son Of A Sailor Too late at that point.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Oldest Son Of A Sailor Maybe the rich will invent a faster-than-light spaceship for themselves, and find a planet to go to that they haven't killed.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal seem to be rather haunted reactions to the disappearance of utopian energies in the world of the present day.

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cassiodorus Of all issues, climate collapse has the best chance of producing that reaction.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Smityrn's picture

I hope this didn't keep you up at night, Sam~

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Laura Smith

Cassiodorus's picture

@Smityrn This is my most recent meditation upon history. Too few people really try to make any sense of the last five hundred years, in my opinion. If you took anyone from any other era of history and dropped them into the world of 2017 they'd ask, "what the hell happened"? Maybe it's time we started asking that question too.

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Mark from Queens's picture

I'm in bed reading it on the iPad so I'll have to brief. Love the topic and am intrigued with learning more about utopian communities, especially ones that sprung around America, so thanks for this. Look forward to digging in more tomorrow.

I remember hearing that MLK wrote in a letter to Coretta when they were courting that the Bellamy book was one of his favorites.

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"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"

- Kurt Vonnegut

Cassiodorus's picture

@Mark from Queens I'm a bit concerned that the content here is a bit esoteric for the usual c99% diet. Anyway this is what I'm working on...

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cassiodorus No, I'm with you. Interested in a specific piece of it, the colonization of the political imagination. Much smaller topic.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal to continue the conversation further along those lines. By "the end of the Age of Utopia" what I mean is the triumph of neoliberalism, although I suppose neoliberalism has a utopia of its own. I would call the utopia of neoliberalism the Utopia of the Market, and its main celebration in book form would be Thomas L. Friedman's The World Is Flat.

The problem with the Utopia of the Market, of course, is that the vast majority of us have no choice in this utopia, and we don't experience it as a utopia. The main participants in the Utopia of the Market are the sons and daughters of rich people, and the rest of us are merely obliged to live amidst the architectures of the Utopia of the Market while only being allowed to participate in its utopian delights in a very limited way.

The capital of the Utopia of the Market is what author Robert Frank calls "Richistan" -- Richistan is the community of people who do not have to think twice about whether or not they can afford anything, or whether or not they can hire anyone. The point of all this is that since alternatives to the Utopia of the Market are gradually being closed down in this era, for us non-residents of Richistan the Age of Utopia can be said to have ended.

Now, I wouldn't be averse to a revival of the Age of Utopia, the bigger the better -- but we'll see.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cassiodorus @Cassiodorus There's a flatness, indeed, to the utopian imaginings of the neoliberals; like capitalism itself, neolibs seem to drain meaning and inspiration and a certain three-dimensional quality out of everything. Marx talked about this somewhere, I know, but I'm not up on my Marx, so I can't remember where. But it wasn't only him: there was a strong religious critique of unrestrained capitalism in the 19th century that was making the same argument: that the demands of capital would essentially mow over every other cultural and social priority, and remake them in its image, replacing every priority with the constant demand for maximum profit. What's left in the aftermath is a pale shadow of what used to be meaningful social interaction (by which I mean not just interactions between people but between people and ideas too, between people and their culture itself, between people and the material places they live and objects they use). I sometimes wish people could see Hillary's campaign with my eyes, because to my inner eye it looks like a cultural Blitzkrieg, laying waste to everything from movements to individual personal relationships of long standing to long-held values.

Not that long-held values shouldn't be questioned, but this is not questioning; this is tossing them aside carelessly for a reason that is no reason.

I'd say that the libertarians come closest to an idealistic rendering of the marketplace; the neoliberals seem to know that they are lying. That's the flatness; they don't really believe in anything, and in their hearts they know it. I guess the closest neolibs come to some kind of utopian vision is Robert Reich and the idealization of education. It gives them the idea of meritocracy to believe in, which is the fragment they shore against their ruins.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal "Never Let a Serious Crisis Go To Waste". Mirowski argues (more or less: I'm going on memory here) that people left to themselves will give us something deeply flawed like "Communism" or the welfare state and that markets must be imposed upon the masses to make them "rational." (Never mind, of course, that the devout faith in markets appears to the rest of us to be fundamentally insane -- as Mirowski describes it, the "neoliberal thought collective" constitutes a consensus so deep and so wide that a vision of an alternative order has not even been designed.)

Perhaps that's why the neoliberals seem to be knowing liars -- they share a cynical disdain for the collective self-interest of the masses (borrowing that attitude from the habitual condescension of the rich, with whom they interact on workdays), yet their politicians nonetheless feel obliged to appeal to that self-interest for the sake of getting elected. Hillary Clinton was a nearly-pure version of that cynical disdain. She had a keen mind for developing "plans" for social improvement, laid out in Baroque grandeur, and none of it amounted to anything more than "let's invent another market to rip off the rubes once more." In that way she was like the woman from WellPoint who designed the ACA.

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cassiodorus That's an idea that the PTB have been pushing for a few years: the masses are untrustworthy; shouldn't we give up on democracy? Aren't these deplorables not fit to be trusted with choosing the leadership of our country? Or, as Erin Burnett once said to Pete Petersen, on the subject of Social Security: Won't people always vote for more benefits? Isn't democracy the problem?

Another version of this is saying "Well we never had democracy here anyway" in a kind of "what do you expect" hands thrown up kind of way.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal we should revisit Samuel Huntington's essay in The Crisis of Democracy, a (1975) piece written for the Trilateral Commission, as a landmark event. Huntington argued that Western societies had too much democracy, which resulted in too many demands placed on elite rulers, and that somehow this surplus democracy needed to be coopted if effective leadership was to persist.

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

@Cassiodorus @Cassiodorus @Cassiodorus

In other words objecting to the self-interest of everyone being considered, rather than merely theirs at the expense of everyone else... this globally destructive selfishness forming no excuse for a return to might-make-right banditry by war-lords over a vulnerable population of serfs from the ideal of democracy instituted as an inherent right of The People and, whether realized (edit: in effect) or not, forming the direction of legitimate law throughout the entire land.

Edit: this conspiracy of psychopaths toward overthrowing the very concept of legitimate government of, by and for the people defines betrayal, does it not?

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Cassiodorus's picture

@Ellen North And if we'd had the sense to recognize it we would have ditched the "Two-Party System" ages ago.

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

@Cassiodorus

And it's conversations such as those which are being initiated here which are most likely to bring a better understanding and potentially come up with productive solutions.

I'm just kinda hanging on the edges here, in a state of deep appreciation for such contributions providing essential angles/options, history, principles and mechanisms we must incorporate into our viewpoints and which are rarely, if ever, raised for the average reader.

Thanks!

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cassiodorus I'm interested in the colonization of the political imagination because it's one of the few battles that haven't already been won by the other side. That's why we have million-dollar Brock trolls, among other things. The PTB don't entirely control people's perceptions yet, and they are very interested in gaining an absolute control in that area. This isn't new, but now that they have a 24/7 news cycle, a completely captured press, and digital technology to work with, they think they're within striking distance. And unfortunately, they probably are.

You can't stop the signal. That's true. You can't actually stop people thinking and objecting, not without some really extensive investment in brainwashing and perhaps even torture (as in 1984 and, unfortunately, places in the real world.) So what's the economical way to go? First, manage people's expectations. Second, create fake resistance efforts where people can express their feelings, and put your own people in charge, so that the people participating can feel better while the energy of their opposition is channeled away safely to no effect--or better, to an effect you desire. Anyone who attempts to point out the appropriation is likely to receive more resentment than the PTB, and that splits your opposition further.

Ultimately, what they're looking for is a world where no one can imagine an alternative to the status quo that makes things better--where the only alternative imaginable is a worse, more extreme version of what you're living with now.

In my view, this is the actual battle Sanders was fighting, and the reason the establishment is actually mad at Sanders (and despite his sheepdogging, they ARE mad at him--all you have to do is read the Podesta emails and listen to them talking about grinding him to dust, where are we going to stick the knife, etc., to know they're mad)--the reason they're mad at him is that he struck a real blow against the colonization of the political imagination. He made certain ideas seem possible, where the establishment wanted a world where no mainstream candidate for President (or any high office) could or would ever say such things. Such policies are supposed to be inconceivable

Since they haven't managed to get the entire population to go along with the idea that neoliberal policies are inevitable (yet), they've decided to give people some venues to harmlessly express their wishes--and even imagine those desires in such a way that it will almost certainly lead them back to the fold.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Thanks, your essay reminded some local history. Cloverdale once home to Icaria, a communist utopia

Cloverdale in Alexander Valley is known for its fine wineries and citrus orchards, but little is known about “Icaria Speranza,” a French communist commune established along the Russian River in 1881. The Icarian’s philosophy was “All citizens enjoyed everything in common, no personal ownership, no aristocracy.”

It was started by French revolutionist Etienne Cabet before the turmoil of the French Revolution of 1875. Cabet was against the monarchy and the Catholic Church and wanted to establish a communist society.

He championed Napoleon Bonaparte over and against the Bourbon Monarchy, calling for the recreation of the Republic of France.
...

Also a printing plant was used to print newspapers in English, French and German. They published their own schoolbooks. All this was designed to aid the Icaria propaganda in France.

After the U.S. Civil War, hard times came upon Nauvoo, crops failed, debts increased and there was economic depression. There were quarrels between the original settlers and the younger radicals. Nauvoo only lasted six years before splitting up. One group went to Iowa, and the other group came to Cloverdale in 1881.

The Cloverdale contingent was led by Armand Dehay and Jules Leroux. The Icarians purchased the Bluxhome Ranch in 1881 with its 885 acres along the Russian River for $15,000.
...

The debt from Iowa and the California economic failure of 1884 created a depression in crop and land values. After six years Icaria Sperana failed financially. The noble experiment came to an end.
...

Always bank debt that ultimately makes things "come to an end", isn't it? Same as it ever was.

Peace

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existent, not sustainable or not what they appear to be. Think the Oneida Community, lots of Sixties communes, religious residential communities, etc. We're a flawed species.

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Cassiodorus's picture

@HenryAWallace @HenryAWallace So not always.

Oh and --

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/anarchism-intention...

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Lookout's picture

@Cassiodorus

Is still alive and well. We know people who were born and still live there. It has its problems, and so isn't a true Utopia, but it is still going strong almost 50 years later.
http://thefarmcommunity.com/

In 1970, 300 hippies founded a commune in the backwoods of Tennessee and set out to change the world. Members shared everything, grew their own food, delivered their babies at home and succeeded in building a self-sufficient society. By 1980, The Farm had 1,500 members and hosted 10,000 visitors a year. Their socialist experiment sowed the seeds for many of today’s most progressive movements, including organic farming, natural birth, vegetarianism, and solar power. Countless reporters—everyone from Dan Rather to Walter Cronkite—have covered The Farm.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/oldest-hippie-commune-alive/story?id=1783...

There's also the multi-racial Christian community farm in South Georgia which started in 1942 (pushing 75 years old) and is still happening.. and even developed habitat for humanity.
https://www.koinoniafarm.org/brief-history/

Have you ever read Island by Huxley? He paints a utopian Island that's fun to read.

Like perfection I'm afraid Utopia is a difficult (but worthwhile) goal.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Cassiodorus's picture

@Lookout if they're doing utopian dreaming of some sort...

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Cassiodorus's picture

@Lookout I've read Island! I've read a whole lot of Huxley, and will at some point soon be shopping around an essay "Aldous Huxley and Education"...

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

@Cassiodorus

And my wording--"tend to be" contemplated "not always"--i.e., my wording contemplated the existence of exceptions, or at least what seem to be exceptions to those of us on the outside looking in.

For decades, outsiders thought the Oneida community to be a thriving, healthy place. They produced some wonderful products that did well commercially--still do on ebay, which is how I learned of that community. When I looked it up, I learned it was a religious/sex cult.

I am very familiar with another religious community that's been around since the Fifties or Sixties. You could not pry some of the inhabitants away from it, while many others have "escaped." Residents who are happiest there tend to be those with trust funds. The rest are pretty much unpaid servants who get gang guilted and browbeaten and, often, punished, when they commit some bread crumb "sin" like being "haughty." But, no one knows that other than people who have lived there and those of us who believe the stories of "the departed" who have had the courage to speak out.

If you were to see the place and the people, you would never see any sign of any of that. It's a physically lovely place and the people could not be nicer to visitors, retreatants, etc. or seem more content and at peace. Oneida and the one I know very well fall into my "not what they seem" category. Granted, it's easier to get away with this kind of thing when you can convince people that their behavior is grieving their Maker. However, there are probably secular counterparts for the majority to "guilt" and browbeat. Maybe we even see some of them on message boards?

Longevity does not = utopian, either. Of course, I don't expect perfection. As I said, we're a flawed species. Perhaps some of us are magnificent, too, but we're all flawed. People who live in communities may or may not be any happier than we are. Maybe "utopian" should not even be a factor because utopia is unattainable. They're really just various communities of people who believe in living in a way that is different than the way most Americans live. It's not for everyone, but it seems to work for them--as far as we can tell.

I am very glad some of the many residential communities that formed have lasted, if they are emotionally healthy places for the inhabitants or members. I don't think longevity alone proves that they are, though.

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Cassiodorus's picture

@HenryAWallace @HenryAWallace A utopia can be a piece of writing depicting an imagined happy society, or a designed community, or an idealized vision of the future. But it isn't merely any of these things. A utopia is a concrete manifestation of a utopian dream, and in the period of history suggested above (the beginning- and end-dates aren't important but the Enlightenment and the Seventies appear important to me for good reasons; start with Condorcet's (1793) Sketch or Godwin's (1793) Enquiry and finish with Samuel Huntington's antiutopian chapter in the (1975) book The Crisis of Democracy), utopian dreams motivated people to try to establish utopia on Earth.

So yeah, sure, intentional communities suck a lot of the time, people are flawed, utopia is impossible, so on, so forth. Was the Age of Utopia a waste of time? After all, it brought us climate change, which might screw us all for good. Rule by kings and priests was pretty cool -- should we bring them back? Maybe we should go back to a society in which we all think that the best that this life can offer is a quick ascension to Heaven (after perhaps a short stay in Purgatory), as many people believed before the Age of Utopia.

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

@Cassiodorus

My original post contained only three basic observations about most "utopian communities in real life." http://caucus99percent.com/comment/239494#comment-239494 Same for my second post. I didn't think either of my posts contained anything controversial.

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Cassiodorus's picture

@HenryAWallace was about the Age of Utopia. Were you responding to it?

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

@Cassiodorus

My first post on this thread was a reaction to this post: http://caucus99percent.com/comment/239451#comment-239451 My other posts on this thread were replies to your posts to me.

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Cassiodorus's picture

@HenryAWallace So it's you, after all, who aren't responding to me.

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

@Cassiodorus

as you know. As my prior reply to you said:

None of my posts were replies to your thread starter.
@Cassiodorus
My first post on this thread was a reaction to this post: http://caucus99percent.com/comment/239451#comment-239451 My other posts on this thread were replies to your posts to me.

Not replying to a thread starter is (a)not novel and (b) not the same as not responding to you at all.

I did not claim that you were not responding to me. Rather, I expressed uncertainty as to what in my post had elicited the kind of response that you made to it.

When I posted at firedoglake some years back (under another name I no longer recall), I loved seeing your threads and replying to them. On this board, we seem to talk across each other. I'm not sure why. Perhaps each board has its own culture.

I'll leave it there.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cassiodorus As for rule by priests and kings--I'd probably bring them back to replace the shitheads we currently have, if I didn't think they might turn out the same.

Not b/c I like authoritarianism, but b/c if we're going to have an entrenched aristocracy, it would be better if that aristocracy perceived its power as arising from something that had to do with a lived human life, like a piece of land with artificial borders, or a belief system transmitted via tradition through a select caste. Bad as either of those can be, they're still not as bad as the elites deriving their perceived power from a complete abstraction like numbers recorded by some Bloomberg software running on some server somewhere.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cassiodorus But the real point here is the lack of choice. As Americans, we have a very hard time wrapping our heads around the idea that we don't have a choice/don't have power. This is both a stumbling-block for the PTB and one of their greatest assets. It's a stumbling-block b/c it's difficult to entirely deprive the American population of hope; it's an asset because people will keep doing the same bullshit forever, sure that sometime soon, if they work hard enough, things will turn their way.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal But our Presidential elections, at least, are pretty much like elections in Iran -- the final choice must be acceptable to the Council of Elders (i.e. the super-rich, the military and spooks, and the shadow government) or he or she won't make it.

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

He easily captures the true essence of Classical / Enlightened thinking.

When it comes to Georgism, the principle is extremely simple. The 'unearned income' that society creates (original economic rent meaning) that pools in 'land' sources, should be redistributed throughout society as a whole. Neoclassical economists twist capital and land into the same thing (without ever truly justifying it). They also pretend to be above 'ideology' in their approach, but they rely heavily on 'malthusian population growth' and 'marginal productivity theory of wages' which are terribly ideological in their approach and extremely pessimistic / 'business-friendly' (by business-friendly I mean they ultimately pit the worker against the manager, distracting from the real issue).

Also when you think about it, taxing 'productivity' (or the fruits of one's labor) is a terrible idea, largely a fruitless approach (whether it is personal or corporate taxes). And that is largely the point of a lot of Georgist folks out there. Basically they come up with these seemingly advanced 'models' that make it difficult for the layman to understand, when the problems and solutions are really quite apparent.

We've been going through various implementations of feudalism for centuries.

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Cassiodorus's picture

@pyradius I suppose Henry George would fit into the chronology between Karl Marx, Peter Kropotkin, Edward Bellamy perhaps...

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

@Cassiodorus Some pretty amazing names that he influenced as well, finding all of it pretty fascinating...

http://www.earthrights.net/wg/q-about-george.html

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

It's not surprising when a small community sets out by itself to oppose all or most of the social forms that surround it, that it should fail.

Creating a Life Together is a really good book which lays out the characteristics of the tiny percentage of such communities that succeed.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal I'll be sure to read it!

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.