Impending Crisis of Conscience
I honestly do not know what to do. My “real-life” friends and family are not as politically passionate as I, which is probably why I sought out to find “my people” on the internet in the first place. Although I am shy when it comes to writing and commenting, I have been reading the work of the names on this website for years. You probably don’t know me, but I feel like I know you.
With that preamble, I would like to ask for your advice. If Senator Sanders does not secure the nomination, I don’t know what I’m going to do. I keep trying to envision myself voting for Hillary and I’m just not sure I can go through with it, especially if she taps some quasi-democrat for VP. Where my real crisis comes in is that I’m terrified of doing anything that would, even in a minuscule part, contribute to Roe v. Wade being overturned. While I don’t think Hillary will do anything to further advance a woman’s right to have control over her own body, I want to believe that she will at least protect the minimal rights that we currently have.
I love voting. I never miss a vote. But, I’ve never had to hold my nose and vote before. I know that many of you probably have, so I ask, is this what it will come to? Is this what you will do in November if the worst happens?
Comments
It's really a personal decision.
You have to look deep within yourself and have the courage of your convictions to do what's in your heart and soul.
For me, I've been voting for 43 years and have held my nose on more than one occasion. As a 63yo woman, I've decided I cannot do that anymore. I'm condoning the very things I am against. I am going against my own principles. I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm going to have the courage of my convictions and do what brings me peace.
There is no guarantee that hrc will not work to overturn Roe v. Wade. I don't think she will, but she is already against late term abortions. That, in and of itself, is not allowing a woman to decide what is best for her body. That is government regulation of women. To me, this is the same as abolishing Roe because it remains government intervention where none is needed.
The best thing you can do is wait for the primary to be over and see where we stand. For some crazy reason, I cannot believe that we will go with hrc. I've been wrong before, though, so it might just be wishful thinking. As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to take those thoughts of Bernie being our nominee and continue to give those thoughts energy and perhaps it will manifest itself. But, that's me and I digress.
Dear Scrappadoo, take your time - do your research - listen to your heart and soul. The answer will come.
Have a beautiful day.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Thank you for the tip
about the write-in laws and for your beautiful advice. I'm still optimistically holding on the my Bernie dreams as well.
Life pre-Roe v. Wade
I am an older voter, too, and before Roe, abortion was legal in some states, not others.I worked in a small county hospital in New Mexico in 72-73 and doctors there did abortions with virtually no limit - really late term ones on teens was regular. I also grew up in Texas (50s and 60s) and there were often doctors who did abortions, and people knew about it. Overturning Roe just puts it back to the states, and some are already pretty horrible. I just am not fearful anymore, and see the #Bernieorbust position the only way to prevent the harm of Clinton and also move to change the party. I have a teen son(I adopted so I am a geezer mom) and think of his future, with either Clinton or Trump nothing substantial will be done on climate change. I see Trump fighting with his own party, as he is unaccustomed to having to deal with competing interests not his own. With Clinton, I see her getting what she wants as Bill did - disasters that keep on giving.
Follow your heart
I have voted for many lesser or poor candidates because I had to vote due to fear or great unknown or to follow the party.
Guess what, all the poor "lesser of two evils" candidates (Mondale, Kerry, Gore, Clinton) did not change the world. In our Republic the founders set up a system to weather the storm. Therefore, vote for the candidate you feel good about. When you leave the booth you need to feel good about your decision. I have embraced this philosophy now because both candidates are terrible- we have had 30+ years of the rich getting richer and they both represent the status quo (establishment).
For me, Hillary is not an option due to all the flaw character, professional, and political issues that have surrounded her during her entire life. Besides she has no moral compass- she flip flops and just does what is best for her. Therefore, I will vote for someone else.
My options:
Jill Stein- if she gets on the state of Washington ballot
Gary Johnson
Not vote for president- but vote for everyone else
Heck even Trump- because our world will not end with one bad president- matter of fact this might help propel us to a quicker and better change.
Please avoid a write in, because in all likelihood your ballot will be spoiled or not get counted. Make sure you understand your state's write in laws. Please note when there is a "special" ballot the election clerk and team do not take the time and energy to really count them just my personal experience.
But if all of us start following this approach (vote with your heart) then this country would be in much better shape. Of course this is my opinion, and you can now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
Shoot
still getting used to this format. Thank you for the information about writing in. I have strongly considered doing that but now, maybe not. I've also never looked into Jill Stein but I will now.
I'm going to vote Green.
If it comes down to Hillary v. Trump, I'm going to vote for Jill Stein. I can't bring myself to vote for anyone that's antithetical to my personal principles, so I will not hold my nose and vote for Hillary just because she's a Democrat. If Trump wins, there are three points of solace for me: 1) I voted for the best candidate, 2) Trump himself is a wild card with positions all over the map and he's a former Democrat, so I honestly have no idea what he plans to do, and 3) the Democratic members of congress will be united in opposing any Republican priorities that Trump wants to push.
Also, keep in mind that it's not at all certain that Hillary would unequivocally protect Roe v. Wade either, since she's said that she's for partial bans on late term abortion. To me, giving even an inch on choice is opening up the door to an eventual repeal in the future. That is not what a Democratic candidate should be espousing. After Obama nominated Garland for the SCOTUS, I'm not convinced that Hillary's picks would be any better, as she would argue that she has to "compromise" to "get things done."
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/hillary-clinton-late-term-ab...
I guess it really comes down to whether or not you believe anything Hillary says and who you think will be the lesser evil. I'm still hoping that Bernie pulls off a major upset or the superdelegates come to their senses, but as that scenario becomes less and less likely, I'm ready to abandon the establishment and work toward building something better over the course of the next two to four years.
Fingers crossed.
I'm still holding out hope for Bernie too.
If Roe V. Wade is your big issue
Much as I hate to say it - I think Trump is the safer bet. Not that you should vote FOR him, you could vote your conscience and vote for Jill Stein as a progressive candidate, and not have to worry about taking a vote from Hillary.
Trump is NOT religious, not even a little bit. That's one thing we CAN be sure of. He has absolutely no ideological belief in that issue. Sure, he says what the right-wingers want to hear, but no way would be do anything to restrict abortion access.
Sadly, I'm not sure the same is true of Hillary.
The other problem is - it almost doesn't matter. States are now making abortion illegal except to save the life of the mother - I'm not sure how that's even allowed, but apparently it is. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/05/19/oklahoma-l...
The truth is neither of them is going to fight for unrestricted access to abortions. But I think Trump might actually be irreligious enough not to buy into the banning movement.
In this election, there are NO good choices.
His Supreme Court list scares me
and that's where I'm afraid he would do real damage. I do notice he claims to be to Hillarys left on some issues but his racism and sexism are clearly a problem. If I voted for Trump it would be just to watch the world burn and I'm not sure I'm there yet. Of course, I still am hoping for the best with Bernie.
Yeah, I can understand that. I am ready, I think
to watch US burn. I feel like Trump would be a disaster for the U.S., for sure, but I also feel like maybe we should pay for our ignorance for a change, instead of making the rest of the world pay. Hillary is far more dangerous for the rest of the world. Trump is more isolationist.
I don't intend to actually VOTE for Trump, I'm voting the candidate who most nearly matches my views - if its not Bernie, its Stein. But I can't make myself believe that either Trump or Hillary are lesser evils, they are just different evils.
Just where I'm at right now - I just don't think we should inflict our stupidity on the rest of the world, causing thousands or millions more to die in new wars under Hillary.
But like I said - there are really no good choices. Everyone has to decide what they think is best. Its a very depressing situation.
Peace.
Trump does sound more isolationist but I get the impression
he wants to turn our military into mercenaries.
Well, as I commented elsewhere, I have no good reason to
think Trump's SCOTUS appointments would be better or worse than HRC's, a fact that pretty much takes the umph out of the No-ponies-for-you crowd's "trump" card.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Think you're right--Trumps' sister was
was appointed to her present position by WJC. (Initial appointment, IIRC, made by GHWB.)
If I'm not mistaken, legal experts claim that this Court (since Obama's appointments) is the most business-friendly (corporatist) in decades. I've posted a couple of pieces on this, including at DKos.
And Merrick Garland's appointment is supported by a bunch of ultra right-wingers--including Alberto Gonzales, and (of all people), Ken Starr!
Oh, and there's this,
If WJC appointed him, it's pretty safe to say that Merrick's not a 'liberal.'
A hearty 'welcome' to C99P!
Mollie
"I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive."
----Gilda Radner, Comedienne
In Tribute: 'Lily, Keeping The Promise Alive,' National Mill Dog Rescue [NMDR]
[National Mill Dog Rescue, A Rescuer's Creed, YouTube]
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Addendum: Maryanne Trump's appointments, by Reagan & WJC.
Read more: http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/not-many-people-know-this-about-trump...
Mollie
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.--Lao Tzu
"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown
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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Alberto Gonzales, great.
America's Torquemada.
I always kinda hoped Garry Trudeau would represent him with one of those cardinals' hats, a la michael palin.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
This is a heartbreaking election.
I viscerally hate what the Clintons have brought to the Democratic party---socially liberal/fiscally conservative free market right-wing bullshit. An ideology that serves profits first and people second. They are corrupt, plain and simple.
On the other hand, I know too many Muslim and Latino Americans that are actually threatened by a Trump presidency. People I really care about. I have to show them support and vote in solidarity with them. The hateful rhetoric of Trump cannot be rewarded. That will be more devastating to our cause than anything.
The only positive thing about Hillary is that she will be the first female president. That is really it, but I won't be voting for her, I'll be voting in support of people who I care about, rejecting Trump--even if it breaks my heart to do so.
I won't be talking politics this summer or fall. I'll vote in November, but I really have had it with our über capitalist, imperialist two-party system. We are no better than a third world country.
Vote A and war criminals claim a mandate; vote B and racists do.
An ungodly mess of a result, that’s for sure.
My biggest fear
My fear with Hillary is that she will be so eager to secure a "legacy" that she will sell the soul of the Democratic Party to achieve it. She will willingly sign ever more restrictive abortion measures passed by Congress. She will nominate Supreme Court Justices that are hollow on abortion rights. On abortion, she will revert to her true nature, which is more toward the anti-abortion side of the ledger than the pro-choice side. Is Trump better or worse? Hard to say, but this election may prove to be a true dilemma, with no "lesser evil" available.
We understand now that this is a battle
for the soul of the Democratic Party. Bernieorbust for me. And I am holding out that he will likely lose the primary war and go new party or Green. With Clintons at the helm, I have no desire to vote. I am now calculating anti-votes to any politico up for election who supports her. My statement. No one will care.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
It depends partly on what state you're in
I live in a totally red state; in the general election our few delegates will go to Trump. So my vote is literally meaningless. I will see what I feel like doing in November--if Bernie is not on the ballot, we do have write-in options.
Even if I really wanted Hillary to win, it still wouldn't matter how I vote, the state goes Republican no matter what.
What I want is a Constitutional amendment to do away with the electoral college and choose the president with the popular vote.
I'm in True Blue Maryland but
don't you ever think maybe Trump will be one of those map flipping candidates? It's like a mass hysteria.
I don't know, but like I said
I think a person has to evaluate for themselves what's happening in their state. I guess if I lived in a blue state and thought the crazies might throw it to Trump, I'd vote differently than I will vote in my red state. In other words, I might vote straight ticket D even if I despise and deplore the candidate... I'd have to decide who is the lesser horror.
Well, it's too soon to decide this now. Lots more water to go under that bridge first.
Hi Scrappadoo
My Dad always told me that when I vote it I should think of it as I alone am choosing who wins. He said to take it that seriously. That's the way I've always voted since 1972. That said, I'll not be voting for clinton should she win the primary. Deep down I have to admit she is probably a teeny tiny bit better than trump but that is just not enough for me anymore. I'm like RA above, I'm sick of holding my nose and now is the time for the revolution, the court be damned.
Anyway, the 2 things at the top of the list in my world are Climate Change and war. I don't see either clinton or trump addressing Climate Change, so that's a wash. Then there's war. I see clinton instigating a war her first year in office, in fact, I bet money on it. I'm that sure of it. Trump is an unknown. If he truly was a good business man (he's not) and gave a shit about our country (?), he would avoid it at all cost. As we know it's an expensive, messy business for the country. He's also made statements, for what they're worth, as being against stupid wars. So where I'm at at this point in time, if I alone had to choose the next president and the choices were clinton and trump? Hello MR. President
But not to worry, Bernie's gonna win this thing!!!
My dad always said
"Rush Rules!". Seriously, yikes. But he is politically passionate so at least I can respect that.
I'm not a one issue voter or anything, I just wouldn't recognize my country if women we forced to give birth. I feel like we'll be on the road to A Handmaid'sTale. That said, I don't believe She would necessarily be better, so maybe fascism and burkas are inevitable. Depressing indeed. Go Bernie Go.
You don't need to decide now
I realize that virtually all media sources now claim that it's Trump vs. Hillary, but I'm not so sure that will be the case. The FBI investigation is an unknown loose end, and I can't help but think that if the polls continue to show a Trump victory against Clinton that Obama will let the Justice Department indict her and get her off the hook with a pardon. We will know soon enough. You don't have to decide until a few weeks before election.
You have faith in Obama.
I don't. He may let the JD indict her, but it won't be until after the election. Presidential immunity will adhere after inauguration day, so she cannot be tried while in office. She can't be impeached because the offenses occurred prior to becoming president. At the end of her term, she'll do a Nixon and let her VP step up to president and grant her a full pardon.
I hope your faith in Obama is warranted, but forgive me if I don't hold my breath.
It's not faith in Obama
Suppose Trump wins and she becomes just another citizen. Trump has already promised to jail her, saying the statute of limitations won't interfere.
President Obama
If Trump wins, Obama issues an executive pardon and she skates. He has a vested interest, as she was part of his administration. Remember,
Interesting discussion
If she is not indicted, there is nothing to pardon her for. If Trump is president and she is has not been indicted, then he could push an indictment and ensuing conviction. I admit I am not a lawyer nor do I have any legal background, so I'm sure I'm over my head here.
Scappadoo, may I say that if all of America's young people
were as thoughtful and as conscious and conscientious as you, the future would be bright for us all.
I couldn't advise you how to vote. Several commenters have urged you to follow your heart. I seldom tell folks to do what their hearts say until I've seen some evidence they have one and that it functions :=)
I think yours is a heart I would trust.
Also, I advise something that I struggle with myself: patience and an open mind. You have a long time until Nov 8 - a summer and fall is an eternity in politics. I guess my best advice is to be compassionate with yourself and to give yourself the grace of keeping your options open until you stand in the voting line on Nov 8. The person you are now is not the person you will be on Nov 8; the world today is not the same as the world will be on Nov 8 and the candidates now are not the candidates then (except for Bernie, of course :=)
Best wishes and please consider commenting more and writing more posts. Us older duffers need to hear your voice often.
Resilience: practical action to improve things we can control.
3D+: developing language for postmodern spirituality.
Thank you, Gerrit.
I appreciate your support. I'm going to really try to keep my mind open and, of course, my hope alive.
Scrappadoo, another 63 year old woman here.
I was raised in a Democratic household. We would carry the damned (Democratic) newspaper list of endorsements to vote and pass it one-to-the-next. Family voting was how I started out. I have carried my kids into the old voting booth with the arm-operated curtain to register my votes. I have lost my religion for the Democratic Party, no love of the Republican Party. Vote your heart. As Gerrit said, Nov is months away. All will surely be different then, and the way may be more apparent for us both.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Ha, that's so great.
My kids are 8 and 6 and haven't missed a vote yet. We always vote early and make it a family event. I hope their memories will be as fond as yours.
And a 73 yr old woman here
Democratic Party voter and active member in retirement years. Obviously we all make our own decisions, but given the state of global warming and no imminent sign of keeping fossil fuels in the ground and doing other things we need to do to slow the trajectory to extinction, I cannot and will not vote for those who aren't leading this battle. Bernie, thus far, is the only contender with a chance who has addressed it as the urgent issue it is. I think this is the real Bernie or Bust equation. The life or death issue. Hillary and Trump are double sided heads on the coin of extinction. IMO
When wealth rules, democracy dies.
So true.
And so scary. Thank you for sharing your opinion with me.
And a late 50s woman here
(works both ways -- the age AND the decade born).
I've been holding my nose and voting since I first had the right (1980), until 2008. I admit I was suckered by Obama's "hope and change." I actually bought into that. (Amazing that I could still be so naive at that age!) By 2012, I was well and truly disabused of that notion.
When this all started, I was willing to hold my nose and vote for Hillary if she won over Bernie. The more I see of the woman, how she handles herself, how she handles people she thinks are beneath her, how she's striven to be More Hawkish Than Thou, how much she just assumes she should be *given* the nomination, and how she can't seem to take two breaths without lying about something, I've realised there's no way in hell I'm voting for her. I'll vote for Bernie if he's 3rd party, or Jill Stein if he's not, and either will probably be meaningless, because Maryland is comfortably blue and in the bag for Clinton. But even if it weren't, I would vote the same way. I've had enough of holding my nose. Especially when there's actually a decent candidate available -- the first decent candidate of my voting lifetime.
It took me quite a while to get to that point. In the end, you can only be guided by your own conscience, and your own stomach.
No snowflake in an avalanche feels responsible. -- Voltaire
I'm going to decide after the convention. I think Trump would
be a disaster, I don't believe a thing he says. I think he will usher in more income inequality, take away civil rights, put social as well as economic conservatives on the Supreme Court, and insult one world leader too many and start WWIII.
However, if Hill and Bern are close in delegates by the convention, especially if Bern has more pledged delegates by the convention, and the supers give it to Hill, then I will be looking to vote third party in the general. Because with that much support, maybe it would not be just a protest vote. Maybe we could win. Remember 65% of voters stayed home in 2014. That's a lot of potential Bern support! Or Jill Stein, if we can't get Bern on the ballots.
OTOH, if Bern can't catch up any further and Hill clearly has more votes, I will probably hold my nose and vote for her. I won't be part of splitting the vote if no one other than Hill has a chance.
But I agree with the others. YMMV. I won't criticize anyone who votes differently.
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