Two definitions for the protests
"Black Lives Matter" is a proper name (like "John" or "Mary") aimed at an audience for whom Black lives do not matter. To a certain extent, the argument that there are some people, specifically those in police forces, for whom Black lives do not matter, is an argument about legacy -- Black lives do not matter for some people, now, because Black lives did not matter in the past. It's also a matter of structural racism -- Black lives do not matter for some people because that's the way the system works.
Arguments against the notion that there is systemic racism in American police forces either avoid the opposing side's reasoning or gloss over the problem. "Crime and suspect behavior, not race, determine most police actions," argues Heather MacDonald. But this is nonsense. From the police perspective, "crime" is before anything else a matter of who is identified as a suspect. Identifying suspects is a matter of profiling, which involves a variety of personal attributes, including skin color. And so, as Corbin Klett argues, "Contrary to what MacDonald’s title suggests, there is a growing body of evidence that racial bias does exist in law enforcement and criminal justice institutions." Additional discussion of the MacDonald piece and its context can be found at this website. And for good measure here's a discussion of the matter in Scientific American magazine.
The notion that Black Lives Matter's slogan should be "all lives matter" is tone-deaf and obtuse. Of course all lives matter -- the question being addressed by Black Lives Matter, by that choice of proper name, is one of whose lives don't matter, and for whom. People who use this line need to stop trying to grab a piece of the Black Lives Matter movement out of inflated notions of their own self-importance. Yes, your life matters too. We know this. Okay? Okay.
That being said, there are clear limitations to what a Black Lives Matter movement can legitimately demand all by itself. The Black Lives Matter webpage claims that:
BLM’s #WhatMatters2020 will focus on issues concerning racial injustice, police brutality, criminal justice reform, Black immigration, economic injustice, LGBTQIA+ and human rights, environmental injustice, access to healthcare, access to quality education, and voting rights and suppression.
But what portion of their demands will have any teeth? To what extent will forthcoming attempts to buy off Black Lives Matter through, say, maybe a little money for bias training for cops, succeed in keeping the movement quiet and/or co-opted?
"Defund the Police" is best explained by this video of Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti:
All of this hand-wringing among "Defund the Police" trolls about how "you're being mean to the police" usually has little to do with a discussion of what it is that police actually do. I know what police do! They clean up after crimes have occurred, and they arrest suspects, who if found guilty are sent to prison where they learn how to be career criminals. But mostly they ticket people for speeding and for other small-time misdemeanors. And so you have complaints about excessive police spending generally overviewed in this article, and people who are now questioning whether perhaps at least some police functions aren't better handled by other agencies.
This strategy also has its limitations. Matt Taibbi's "Apocalypse, New Jersey: A Dispatch From America’s Most Desperate Town" tells the story of Camden, New Jersey, a town which was deserted by job flight some time ago and so became a place where illegal drugs were purchased. The withdrawal of some police from such a place made Camden something like a war zone. But this is what partial cop withdrawal looks like when the structures which militarize American society are kept in place. Such a world would never come to be in, for instance, the Netherlands, where illegal drugs are not used as an excuse for militarization. But, of course, making America more like the Netherlands would require more than just "defund the police."
Comments
I love this brand new discussion
of looking at our "institutions" in a new way. The police should not be exempt from intense perusal. Maybe there is another way to do "policing". What an "aha" moment for me.
Also, got me to thinking about how we have defunded teachers (and public education) for years...and uh...no real push back, except by the overburdened teachers themselves. Having to buy their own supplies, working in substandard conditions. It is funny what defunding will do...is why the cops are so against the defunding. You know...it will take away all their fun toys while they play act at being "soldiers."
So I ask the cops (for the teachers)...how does it feel?
Well done is better than well said-Ben Franklin
This discussion got me to wondering how many of
society's needs have been shut down and left to the police. What I remember is when Reagan(?) closed the mental institutions and so called 'mainstreamed' people with real problems and health needs. The sector left to pick up the pieces were and are the police/sheriffs/leo's of many areas of the country. This is not or should not be their job.
Like the example of teachers who have been defunded, so have mental health support of all kinds. They haven't gone away, we just don't see them because they are on the streets, in prison, or dead.
Under funding or defunding foster care is another Dickensonian sector of unmet need.
It makes me wonder what else have been left overs of our society picked up by police? And what would really be their jobs if other trained service sectors were in place instead.
Add to that the dehumanizing training, and weaponry the police have, it's a recipe for disaster.
I would like to know how Camden, New Jersey is doing with some of these issues? Schools? Mental health needs? Foster care?
I'm very encouraged by the 'Black Lives Matter' movement and the support/marching/protesting being joined by many age groups, whites, and I hope economic sectors. I am having some difficulty sorting in my own mind how we separate 'Black Lives Matter' from other societal NIMBYism. Do not want to dilute this moment in time, as it seems we have an opportunity to be and do better. Maybe this is the tip of the spear which will bring justice and equality to other hidden and needy sectors of our society.
Still waiting for CEOs to increase wages, support Medicare for All, provide comfortable and safe working conditions for their employees. Taking a knee and virtue signaling is not enough.
A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.
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taking a knee by the police and politicians
for exactly the same amount of time it took to kill floyd
seems to represent another smack down on murder without consequence
somehow the football player that took a knee during the national anthem
has been co-opted by the political /wealth /enforcement class
with very bad optics
they all now kneel on our collective throats in solidarity to killing the poor
question everything
Thanks for the reminder.
I knew I forgot to add something to my diary: a discussion of Matt Taibbi's article about Camden, New Jersey.
Diary amended.
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
Hi There, thank you for this.
Here's a newer report on the 'community policing' and how they are doing.
Camden, NJ Police
A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.
Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.
Sounds demilitarized.
Perhaps some of the credit should go to a relaxation of the War on Drugs, as well?
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
I find that privileged people...
"I am having some difficulty sorting in my own mind how we separate 'Black Lives Matter' from other societal NIMBYism."
And by "privileged", I do not necessarily define this as "rich", but as WEB Dubois noted: "Psychological Wage of Whiteness racism makes all whites think they are getting a better deal, but the reality is that racism affects all of us, albeit in different ways DuBois argues that the psychological wage of whiteness drives a wedge between white and black laborers who otherwise share an interest in working together to fight for better material conditions"
The privileged often find it hard to believe that blacks would not prefer to live in "white" neighborhoods. Blacks enjoy living in their own communities. They just wish they were funded the same as "other" neighborhoods. Given a chance, these neighborhoods would blossom the same as any other community. The problem is black neighborhoods are underfunded and over-policed...making everyday life miserable for them...as it is intended.
Remember bussing in the 70's? Why was it that blacks had to be bussed to white areas? Why were white kids not bussed to black communities?
Looked at this way, there really should be no worry about NIMBY, if resources are allocated equally.
I remember a dialogue I overheard at my office many years ago. A white girl told a black girl (This was in Philadelphia PA) that her mother would just die
if she bought home a black man. The black girl replied, I understand just what you are talking about, my mother would kill me if I bought home a white man.
As I've said, this was a long time ago and "things have changed".
Well done is better than well said-Ben Franklin
Well said.
Add: Looking into the Tulsa Massacre, the Black Wall Street...they were happy, had good businesses, good education, nice homes, good society. The town was burned down, people killed, devastated and left with nothing.
This was not the only place in the US: there were prosperous, stable towns or parts of cities completely set up with shops, food, businesses, everything we would expect. But it was not ok with the whites around them.
You are right: when we lived in NC for a year, the black people were just fine in their own communities, and social mixing except in a workplace was not frequent.
A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.
Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.
Thanks cass
this
We need to keep the pressure on and watch them like hawks.
I like what is happening in Seattle now - nyt behind a paywall - though if you go via google you may be able to reach the article
Free Food, Free Speech and Free of Police: Inside Seattle’s ‘Autonomous Zone’
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/seattle-autonomous-zone.html
Stop Climate Change Silence - Start the Conversation
Hot Air Website, Twitter, Facebook
Seattle is very cool.
I was there last spring -- definitely a place to be. Hopefully its coolness will spread.
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
Counterpoint
"Black Lives Matter" was, like, the last thing to date in this country that made sense; it made perfect sense in context - but maybe we should say "All Lives Matter": The fact that African-American lives are being treated by the system like so many kernels of popcorn just puts them in the same boat as the majority of All Lives on this planet.
It may be a jarring pivot, but it wouldn't be without precedent: Didn't the Counterculture do something similar in the early 1970s, going from treating the American flag as a hostile symbol to trying to own it (it started its existence as a banner of left-wing insurrection, after all)?
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
counter-counter point
or what ever the hell the term should be...
For me, "All lives matter" ignores and tries to "white wash" 4 centuries of slavery and inflicting the most horrific, barbaric things one human can do to another, that black people have been subjugated too since they were "imported" (taken against their will) into this country.
Even to this day, my goodness, did you not see the #GeorgeFloyd murder on video? Most importantly, the lack of humanity displayed by all four officers. That is what is in store for you, if you do not comply fast enough, but your "white privilege" is enough to buy you maybe a couple minutes (if that long) of argument before they put you down like #GeorgeFloyd.
"All Lives Matter" is just white washing all the systemic and structural white supremacy "baked" into our institutions since the founding of this country.
Go read Steven Alexander's "Corner-stone speech".
(bold emphasis mine)
Do you really think it is too much for Black people to ask us White people to live up to our own "ideals", All men are created equal? Is it wrong of them to ask us to look with open eyes, and see the blatant, structural and systemic white supremacy "built" into our institutions?
Can we not acknowledge, here in this moment, in the 21st century when we should be flying space ships to distant space stations within our solar system, we are still witnessing black lives being snuffed out, with impunity by riod raging "slave Patrols", and for once, have white people acknowledge, "Black Lives Matter"?
Is that really too much of an ask from them?
C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote
Black Lives Matter
to All Our Lives.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
You're COMPLETELY ignoring my point...
...and your reply isn't any degree of counterpoint at all - nor even a 'reply' in all but the coursest sense; it's a collage of knee-jerk talking-points in response to something(s?) I DIDN'T FRIGGIN' SAY. If you can't be bothered to actually read my post (as opposed to skimming and matching it up with shit you heard somewhere else), then I'm not sure how the even greater time and effort it takes to respond is worth it to you, either.
If I can't offer original thoughts here, then I've really got nothing to offer you or anyone else. Here I was beginning to think I'd managed to leave all that crap behind at DailyKos....
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
For several years now,
saying "All Lives Matter" has been a way for conservatives and reactionaries to signal several things, such as general support for law enforcement and refusal to accept the view that blacks are being treated disproportionately badly by police.
On the flag and 60s counterculture, I think any "owning" was along the lines of taking away some of the US flag's special status as a revered, almost religious object that must not be desecrated. For instance, back then it was still greatly frowned upon -- violating specific Rules On Showing Proper Respect for the Flag -- to use the flag or a representation of the flag as clothing. 60s hippies and yippies decided to break this rule. The flag rule-breaking extended to flag burning during many antiwar protests. Iirc, it wasn't until decades later that Scotus declared flag burning as protected speech under the Constitution.
Obviously, I'm aware of that first part
My whole point is that maybe it can and should be turned around - after all, they couldn't use that term at all were it not for the double-meaning.
The Maldives are sinking.
The Cradle of Civilization has been reduced to a smoking, toxic crater all because of a lie.
We are in the middle of a 6th(? I think that's right) Great Mass Extinction.
There is a pandemic of despair that has proved at least as deadly as the more 'traditional' pandemic, yet has received nothing like the same degree of concern (almost the opposite, in some corners).
We have been fighting World War III 'piecemeal' at least since 2014 (I don't agree with the Pope very often, but he might just be right about that one).
Since 2007, more data has been produced every 2 years than was produced between 2007 and the entire rest of history prior - sure, I suppose it's mostly naked selfies, LOLcats, and anthropomorphized naked LOLcats, but if that statistic doesn't scare you, it should.
It is human instinct to circle the wagons when the world starts to look scary - but that is precisely the instinct we must now evolve beyond.
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
You're being obtuse.
"Black Lives Matter" is a proper name. It stands for a movement against police brutality directed against Black people.
"All Lives Matter" is a proper name for what? People who don't understand that "Black Lives Matter" is a proper name?
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
Defining "All Lives Matter"
@Rooster. The cornerstone speech you linked is horrific. Had not seen that one before.
@Cassiodorus. "All Lives Matter" is a slogan for people who are trying to broaden the discussion to
include the ravages of Capitalism (See anything by professor Richard Wolff) and the
society-destroying implications of climate change.
The OP made his own definition of Black Lives Matter. Are other posters not allowed to disagree? Moonbat is right when he asked "Are we Daily Kos?" Is this any way to run a revolution???
You define people who say All Lives Matter as right-wingers, but I am more with @moonbat on this one. I am a Jew (there's my oppression card, I know which relatives died in concentration camps), who became a Unitarian-Universalist. The first principle of UU is
The inherent worth and dignity of every human being. In other words "All Lives Matter".
It is part of our current political pathology that someone who says this could be conflated with actual racists -- and I think it is BAD POLITICS. On NPR a couple days back their response to the Floyd riots was to have the woman who wrote "White Fragility" on to explain systemic racism to us oh so stupid listeners. It's kind of friggin' obvious. Those of us who are willing to listen already get it. I don't need @roosters absolutely horrendous stats. The fact is that the entire system was created to keep both poor whites (now including middle class whites) AND black people down. @Longtalldrink had it exactly right when they quote W.E.B. Dubois. In fact, if you look at all the corporate support for the Floyd protests, it can be interpreted as mealy-mouth cheap actions. "Don't look at the economic system -- see, we aren't racists -- (actually we screw you all!)"
So guys -- lighten up. I don't think we have any actual racists on this site -- and if we want all people to stand together to combat systemic injustice, then we need to be allowed to share our points of view.
Do not let the plutocrats divide us!
Yes of course all lives matter.
But there's no "All Lives Matter" global network foundation, is there?
https://blacklivesmatter.com/
Once again, people who think the slogan ought to be "all lives matter" are confusing proper names with simple sentences. "Black Lives Matter" is a proper name; "All Lives Matter" is not. If "All Lives Matter" were a proper name, it would be a diss on "Black Lives Matter." Does everyone reading this post know what a proper name is? If you don't, look up "parts of speech" on Google or something. I'm sure you can all find nice proper names of your own for the organizations you need.
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
Last time I checked, it was a slogan...
...like "Speed Kills" or "Remember the Maine, to hell with Spain". There's nothing wrong with that. So a .org's been founded with that name; news to me (Hey, remember Basil Marceaux-Dot-Com??? He was definitely ahead of his time on the "anything can be anything" train). Anyways, how does that change my initial point (which none of the detractors in this thread have yet come close to addressing)? I'm not the one who's being "obtuse" here. All I did was introduce a new idea to a discussion of propaganda; I have taken away nothing, from nothing.
EDIT: I'm confused; not long ago at all you wrote this - https://caucus99percent.com/content/im-not-your-ally - and now you're finding fault with me for a bit of heterodox wordplay? We have GOT to be having a miscommunication, here.
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
"Heterodox," here,
is a euphemism for "didn't read the diary."
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
Spare me
Hollow snark and bogus feats of clairvoyance accomplish what, exactly?
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
Yes, I know what a proper name is, but
you haven’t explained why this slogan is a proper noun. You simply assert it without giving a reason to classify it as such.
You got me to wondering, as I’d never heard that ‘Black lives matter’ was copyrighted or a registered trademark. You seem to by saying that some organization using this slogan as part of it’s name automatically makes the slogan into a proper noun for every use. I do not think that is correct.
“Black Lives Matter” Slogan Belongs to the People
From June 9, 2020.
Of course you’re “allowed” to disagree
@#0
Has anyone been flagged or “hidden” or banned for expressing disagreement? No. The author didn’t change his position or opinion, he stuck with his views, maybe he even got a bit snappish and rude, but no one is stopping anyone from speaking up if they disagree.
The idea that this is like DKos, where crowds pile on dissenters and flag their comments to get them hidden from view, then a timeout or temporary banishment, and then banned from the site. If you think c99% is like that, may I suggest you try posting this view on DKos and see how that goes?
I’m not taking a position on slogans or “proper names” — does that mean the org name “Black Lives Matter” is copyrighted or a registered trademark? — but to speak to the topic of the essay, I don’t think it is possible to “focus” on 30 different goals at once. To “broaden the focus” is to dilute the concept of focus on something specific, to the point where there is no focus. That should not happen, IMO.
As soon as I started seeing (some) people starting to glom onto these spontaneous protests — which had a clear focus of protesting police brutality and murder of black people— and started nailing their own issues flyer onto the bandwagon, I didn’t like it. No this is not about capitalism or Medicare4All, it is not about climate change or the food we eat. It is about ending police tyranny and brutality and murder of black people. And soon enough we see, without having to say it, that white people do simply *expect* to be treated with more respect by the police. But then when some 75-year-old white man thinks he can walk up to some cops and try to talk to them (white privileged to the max), they smack him down so hard he’s still in the hospital with a head injury. This should get some attention.
The police are now militarized, staffed with a lot of combat veterans, and armed with tanks and other weapons of war. They are brutal and extremely dangerous. To Everyone. But to some worse than others, there is no doubt. The Black Lives Matter name/slogan, and the focused protests that have a clear message, are what is needed right now, in my opinion.
I don’t think it should be coopted by any other issue or cause. Not at this time anyway. I believe the focus on police reform first, is vital to any other type of people’s movement. The fear “they will murder us” if there is any uprising, has held things back forever. People trying to ride this wave and “expand the focus” to other issues right now are making a mistake in doing so, I think. I understand the urge to join a strong movement and then leverage the power into something bigger. That can work, but not if it dilutes the focus on the main goal. First things first, as the saying goes.