The Virus

Among other concerns regarding the virus, one of the most troublesome for me is that family members are not permitted to be with a sick or dying husband, mother, child. It seems somewhat inhumane to me in the bigger picture of life and death, despite the need for everyone’s safety.

What do you think about this?

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Comments

polkageist's picture

Why not just assure that family members are protected while in the room or at the bedside and are "clean" when they leave. I have noticed that we are not a particularly caring society once we are in the hands of organized politics or economics which apparently includes health care. This pandemic is showing us facets of our society that weren't obvious before.

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-Greed is not a virtue.
-Socialism: the radical idea of sharing.
-Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962

janis b's picture

@polkageist

It could be so simple if we were simply a caring society. I hope the current revelations contribute to something better for the future.

Thank you.

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Pricknick's picture

@polkageist
prove beyond doubt, that those who enter the hospital are not a carrier of the same or different malady?
The only way this would be feasable is in a home setting and in a very controlled visitation. One and only one.
Who will then ensure that the only one would self quarantine? There have to be safeguards for the good of all.
It's far better to say your goodbyes and give your love before the inevitable happens. Never, ever let guilt drive your emotions.

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15 users have voted.

Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

Pricknick's picture

Precaution is the name of the game when working with an unknown.
I look at this as a nurse.
Do I allow others (who I have no guarantee are virus free or immune) outside of the care team, enter a controlled area? No. Never.
I will protect the many including my patient who will be vulnerable to outside contamination.
As heartbreaking as it may seem, once a person is admitted to a quarantine area there have to be controls on exposure to all parties involved.
No exceptions.
Please pardon my bluntness.

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18 users have voted.

Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

janis b's picture

@Pricknick

but since there are no guarantees in life I still question controls that may or may not be ultimately fulfilling.

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Pricknick's picture

@janis b
with those you love before you or they die.
When we fail to think of those other than ourselves and our loved ones, is when we fail to live for the good of all.

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15 users have voted.

Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

janis b's picture

@Pricknick

make peace with those you love before you or they die.

cheers and peace Pricknick

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@Pricknick I agree that there is too much risk of further spread of the virus. The family member would also need to use some of the limited supply of N95 masks and other personal protective equipment (PPE). The already exhausted and overworked nursing staff would have to make sure they knew how to wear and remove the PPE properly. Then there would be the occasional person who, in the terrible stress of the moment, would remove the mask for one last kiss.

RNA viruses mutate rapidly. Some of the strains will be more dangerous than others. It is important to carefully isolate patients with the most dangerous strains so the epidemic will have a lower mortality rate as it continues and the virus adapts to infecting people. This is also the selfish reason we all need to try to help medical providers have adequate PPE.

A tablet with something like Facetime or Skype could be used to say goodbye although it is not the same. Maybe some sort of encryption can be used to provide privacy. I am also distressed that people are spending their last moments alone, but at least this way they could hear a loving voice saying goodbye.

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Pricknick's picture

@ScienceTeacher @ScienceTeacher

A tablet with something like Facetime or Skype could be used to say goodbye although it is not the same.

So are the difficulties.
Two way communications are a nightmare when it comes to confidentiality. Hippaa (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act) demands privacy even for those near death. The only way it would be feasable is for all rooms to have the ability for secured two-way communication from patient point to off site point. Remember, no non-essential personnel should have access to a secured hospital or area. It's not going to happen at this time due to cost and security requirements. An absolute logistical nightmare currently.
I, for one, would never let somebody hand me their tablet or cell phone in such a situation unless it was disposable. Even if it was a hospital supplied unit somebody would be required to decontaminate it between uses. It's above and beyond current practice today.
So good of you to think outside the box.

EDIT TO ADD:
How stupid of me. It's called a land line. That's as personnal as we're going to get currently.

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15 users have voted.

Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

@Pricknick
If the landlines have been removed what about a cheap burner phone?
A phone and activation card would be less than $100. This virus generally does not last more than a few days outside a host if the family wanted the phone back after a week or two that might be possible. Someone other than hospital staff would need to be in charge of decontamination.

I am worried that with all the people going into overcrowded hospitals with overworked staffs that some of them will be exposed to illnesses other than Covid-19, a concern I suspect that you share. Restricting visitors is absolutely a good idea. Even elderly patients with serious cases are more likely to recover than not. Eventually they will go home, perhaps after spending time in some other care facility. This can spread other diseases besides Covid-19, especially since we are not really having a full quarantine lockdown. The half-baked quarantine measures give us the economic pain without the full epidemiological benefits of a proper quarantine.

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@Pricknick

"I will protect the many including my patient who will be vulnerable to outside contamination.
As heartbreaking as it may seem, once a person is admitted to a quarantine area there have to be controls on exposure to all parties involved.
No exceptions.
Please pardon my bluntness."

As far as I can tell, controls on exposure are lacking in many facilities anyway - due
to lack of testing, inadequate PPE and appropriate ventilation systems the caregivers are
as likely, if not more so, than anyone else to be infected themselves, no?

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8 users have voted.

before they get sick.
Let's flip it for just a moment. If I were sick, I would absolutely not want anybody I loved, and damn few I didn't even know, to come anywhere near me.
I understand with children it is less likely they would understand.
But decent, loving adults would be horrified if they made another person, especially a loved one, ill.
I came into the world alone, still live it that way, and expect to leave it that way.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

janis b's picture

@on the cusp

for life, and the strength and confidence your perspective supports.

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11 users have voted.

@janis b @janis b I have had so many close brushes with death I have lost count. I was near death from birth and it just went on and on! What a crazy life!
I remember telling some friend when I was about 13 or 14, that I had no expectation of long life, that I had best figure out some way to to do something, anything, to make some positive difference somewhere, to someone.
I beat the odds, and I had, on several occasions, very contagious conditions that others would have caught. I know quarantine and total isolation very well.
Just the idea that someone I loved would have to go through what I was going through was not the something, anything, to make some difference somewhere, to someone I imagined.
I have a knee jerk attitude to isolate, do no harm, in many social circumstances to this day.
It is ingrained in me.
What I can do is type, attempt to make a positive difference, to anybody that bothers reading.
These are very stressful times, my friend.
As a lawyer, the story my client tells me, in my head, becomes the story I attempt to pick apart. What will opposing counsel throw at my client sort of thing.
I find it easy to flip the scenario from those longing to be with the ill, to the ill wanting to use their last breath in isolation to protect their loved ones.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

janis b's picture

@on the cusp

and try to make a positive difference.

[video:https://youtu.be/7cBf0olE9Yc]

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11 users have voted.

@janis b but it was HUGE.
And by God, we can make a difference.
I do it for a living.
And man, have I ever flipped love on both sides, and am doing it today, and everyday.
No matter that it doesn't get that final expression, or make it to the scoring goal,
I would rather make as far as I can than just leave the field, which I have done for decades.
One last hurrah.
I am not long for this world, and I took the ball, am running with it as fast and as hard as I can.
Sweet dreams, sweet lady.

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12 users have voted.

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

janis b's picture

@on the cusp

[video:https://youtu.be/Fmf9ZJ_Yn0A]

ooh

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@janis b I switched from Explorer to firefox, so it will take time to figure it out.
I have that on my favorites list, play it when I just want to see how we all began.
It was in Africa.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

janis b's picture

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mimi's picture

these days you can be on 'what's up' video stream or skype, be in daily contact for hours with your loved ones and watch your loved ones die, not of corona virus but on cancer, for example. You can watch it, but not be with them in person. It is horrible and inhumane.

I rather want the freedom to move and travel and take the risks for my own health myself. The lockdown is not proving to reduce the spread of the virus, imo, as long as you were not in contact with lots of infected people at well-known places.

Hope you are well. Peace and love to you.

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janis b's picture

@mimi

[video:https://youtu.be/9qqDuEP4okw]

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@janis b I will one day get down there to check out his museum, but I want a big, strong, manly man to be with me when I do.
I hear it is dicey, safety-wise. I almost went alone, until my travel pals said not just no, but hell no!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

janis b's picture

@on the cusp

in Jamaica. I hope there still are.

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mimi's picture

@janis b
give me hope. Thank you, dear lady. In my little family we have said 'i love you' and 'good byes' so many times. But my son's strength is fading. It's too much. And I sit here and can't move. He sits there and can't move. I hate those who lock us up, sorry to say. I try to find some consolation in the music, but it gets harder by the day.

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janis b's picture

@mimi

[video:https://youtu.be/v5avlnxKjuQ]

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but if insurance companies refused to pay if loved ones were allowed in the rooms of the dying, everyone would die alone except the rich.

I'm so tired of everything being reduced to it's transactional value.

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janis b's picture

@Snode

while still hoping for humanity's evolution.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

death is for the living. It is the living that have emotion. The dead or dying are going to the light of the source. They are happy to leave this life behind. They might be going to the other side to help us on this side.

Indeed - death is for the living.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

Bisbonian's picture

You either come out in a body bag, or with debilitating injuries to internal organs, and a ravaged immune system. If I take my partner to the hospital, after spending the last month sleeping next to her, eating with her, talking to her, then I won't be far behind. Or vice versa. We've decided it's better to just stay home.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

vtcc73's picture

@Bisbonian but, personally, I modify it a little.

I will go to a hospital if I think I have this virus. It will be reluctantly but I'll still go. Most of the cases here have been of the mild variety so there is always a possibility of failing to seek help for an infection that is otherwise survivable if properly supported. What I won't do is allow myself to be intubated. I've had doctor friends who say they would have a hard time allowing themselves to be intubated. If this virus has taken a person that far then there is a low probability that they will survive. It's less than a coin toss whether they will ever be able to breathe on their own again due to the debilitating effects of living on a ventilator or the virus does them in.

Anecdotally, there are several good reads on the subject by medical professionals. One, Meghan Kaiser, a trauma surgeon has stated in her writings that she will never allow herself to be intubated, again. She lost a leg and was in a coma on a ventilator for a lengthy period of time but somehow survived. Another is more recent. A nurse from Texas working in NYC wrote that over the past two weeks there have been no patients put on ventilators who survived. Ventilators are a short term solution only. This virus doesn't resolve quickly.

Regarding the janis' topic, I've already lost three people this year. One was a total surprise, 25 year old mother of a three year old who just dropped dead, one I knew was coming, my sister from CJD, and one that I thought would never survive the nearly two years he did. I wasn't able to be with any of them. I'm OK with that. Like others have said, say what you need to say every day. Don't wait or you may never get the chance. Been there, done that, but never again.

Only my sister was a possibility but the international restrictions would have prevented that too. We said our goodbyes in October when I visited her. Not actual goodbyes but we said everything that needed saying. Her cognitive state was already obviously deteriorated and I think we both knew we would never see each other again. She was mostly unresponsive the last month or so which means there was no possibility of repeating what was said in October. I'm alright with that and I think she would have been too.

Having this bug and being in the single hospital (a really wise decision IMHO) in Cuenca that is reserved and especially prepared for treating virus patients wouldn't be fun. My limited Spanish certainly would make it interesting. I still wouldn't want anybody exposed to me than absolutely had to be. I've heard they don't permit electronics, a very poor decision in my opinion, but I think that's a reasonable way to communicate.

There are sometimes that we have to think about more than just ourselves. I'd say it's all the time but that's me. I'm pretty sure this pandemic is a time that it is essential. A single person dying alone, even me, is a personal tragedy but infecting others or taking others with them is horribly selfish and just isn't right. I won't do it anyway.

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"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."

@Bisbonian I have all the underlying conditions that basically predict I have little to no chance of living. If I get the virus, it means it is in the house already, and my wife must take all the work and pro-cautions if I live or die anyway. My wife and I sleep apart for various health reasons anyway so my bedroom must be cleaned out again regardless of what happens. I rather die at home.

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Bisbonian's picture

@MrWebster , if we are pretty bad off already. For fever, cough, vomiting, they're just going to send us home, anyway. I am reading more and more that the ventilators are doing more harm than good, with this virus, and the forward thinking care-givers are using less forceful methods: CPAP machines or cannulas. Living in southern Arizona, I have no expectation of forward thinking.

New reports are coming in that S. Korea has now over a hundred 'repeat' cases, and that it is worse the second time around. Also, the virus, much like the AIDS virus, attacks your t-cells, leaving you defenceless. So, if one survives the intubation, induced coma, massive lung damage, kidney damage, heart damage, and loss of an immune system, there's just not much to look forward to.... Even if you are fine, you still have to deal with the most idiotic government on the planet.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

vtcc73's picture

@Bisbonian @Bisbonian is a much less idiotic government. So much for shithole third world countries.

From the NY Times if I remember correctly:

fullofcrapoquine.jpg

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"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."

ggersh's picture

@Bisbonian https://greatgameindia.com/whistleblower-covid-19-patients-need-oxygen-t...

Whistleblower: COVID-19 Patients Need Oxygen Therapy Not Ventilator
By
GreatGameIndia -
April 13, 2020

Another whiltleblower, a doctor treating Coronavirus patients himself has come out with a startling disclosure saying COVID-19 patients need Oxygen therapy not Ventilator and that we maybe treating the wrong disease. He says the patients symptoms resemble High Altitude Sickness and not Pneumonia.

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I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

@ggersh
Note the inflammatory headline, from a website that I have previously observed to be a bunk-fest. Then the first sentence completely misrepresents what Kyle-Sidell is saying -- which it must be, because the first sentence doesn't make any sense.

Ventilators are a form of oxygen therapy. All the way back to March 1, I found an article on punch citing the WHO recommending "oxygen therapy" for treatment of Covid-19, and therefore also recommending stocking up on ventilators to facilitate that oxygen therapy.

More egregious in GGoI's misreporting is that Kyle-Sidell never says (at least, not in the three articles I read) that ventilators are the wrong approach -- what he says is that everybody has dialed the ventilator pressure up too high, potentially to the point of damaging the patients' lungs. They're doing this because the disease is not responding the way physicians normally expect. Specifically, as the syndrome worsens, the O2 saturation levels begin to fall, so the patient is put on the most basic level of oxygen therapy -- a lightweight mask hooked to a tank. But the O2 sats continue to fall, and the patient is put on the next level -- a close-fitting mask that allows pressurized supply of oxygen. And the O2 sats continue to fall, and the patient is put on a ventilator -- a tube is placed into the lungs and oxygen-rich air is pumped directly into the lungs. And the O2 sats continue to fall.

So ... What the Fuck is Happening? Nowhere does Kyle-Sidell suggest that he knows what the hell is going on, or that he has some Killer App therapy that the hospitals are all ignoring for some mysterious reason, of which I'm sure GGoI could barf out about a thousand groundless speculations. What he says is, This thing isn't behaving like we expect ARDS to behave. It's doing something else. And we don't know why. We don't know why people's O2 levels continue to decline, even when they're getting pressurized O2 therapy. And meanwhile, we're possibly doing harm as well as good, because we've got the pressure turned up too high on the ventilators.

And believe it or not, the most basic question he's asking is not news. The research community is already asking the question, Is Covid-19 distinct from "other", previously-known forms of ARDS?

So, as I said, Yes and No.

I mean, No, GGoI's story is all wrong, which is not surprising, because GGoI is a sham of a journalism site, whose writers are incompetent to the task of covering a medical story.

But Yes, there's a doctor who has been as deep in the Covid-19 muck as any doctor in the US, and he's identified one specific issue with how ventilators are being used; and at the same time he's expressed bafflement over the clinical presentation of this disease, which behaves in ways he hasn't seen before, and doesn't respond to conventional treatment in the way he or his colleagues would normally expect.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@UntimelyRippd
The epidemiology of this one is different. Why are the kids safe?

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@ScienceTeacher
A friend just sent me a link to a blog entry by a guy who makes a lot of claims, some of them based on Kyle-Sidell's information, none of them actually sourced. He makes specific assertions about the biochemistry that's involved, but again, he sources none of them, so it will take a lot of time for me to track them down and figure out whether any of it makes sense.

I want to make it clear -- I think Kyle-Sidell is very persuasive. His stuff is being distorted by paranoiacs, malefactors, and scientific illiterates, but that's not his fault.

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4 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

CS in AZ's picture

@UntimelyRippd

I agree with your comments on what he actually says. It’s a good video. I do not understand why he would be called a “whistle blower” when it seems to me he’s just a doctor sharing what he thinks about what he is seeing happening with his patients, and who wants to share his insights with other doctors making decisions on what to do. I appreciated hearing his perspective. And I appreciate yours as well.

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@CS in AZ
Because the enterprise is wearing me out.

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5 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

snoopydawg's picture

@ggersh

Using a CPAP doesn't put as much pressure on the lung avioli if that's the correct word. A ventilator can make them go pop because of too much pressure. This is what I've understood from the articles I've read.

Pneumonia would show up on X-rays and I thought most people were having them done or on admittance?

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Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?

Granma's picture

That discussed this issue. Two hospitals let a journalist spend a day in their ER and ICU. Several doctors talked with the reporter. The doctors are very sensitive to the fact that these patients are suffering or dying alone.

They try to make sure patients speak with their families before being put on a ventilator. They also take time to comfort patients themselves. The young doctors are being instructed in this by the doctor in charge of them at the one hospital. Doctors and nurses tend to be caring people. It is very, very hard on them to see this much suffering.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-hospitals-...

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janis b's picture

and personal and professional experiences about this subject. I appreciate it.

I trust that these questions are ones that will connect us more intimately with ourselves and with others, and in the process become healing in some way.

Keep well and strong everyone.

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janis b's picture

@janis b

but haven't watched this video yet, here it is again ...

[video:https://youtu.be/Fmf9ZJ_Yn0A]

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2 users have voted.

@janis b
[video:https://youtu.be/kQZLtSbq0yc]

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2 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

janis b's picture

@janis b
yet loving reflection on his relationship with Carrie Fisher tops everything else. It's my single favorite Paul Simon song/performance, and that's saying a lot. The women's part just haunts:
[video:https://youtu.be/zDfT8tUtUiw]

up
2 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

janis b's picture

@UntimelyRippd

[Verse 1]
I feel good
It's a fine day
The way the sun hits off the runway
A cloud shifts
The plane lifts
She moves on
But feel the bite
Whenever you believe that
You'll be lost and love will find you
When the road bends
And the song ends
She moves on
I know the reason i
Feel so blessed
My heart still splashes
Inside my chest, but she
She is like a top
She cannot stop
She moves on
A sympathetic stranger
Lights a candle in the middle of the night
Her voice cracks
She jumps back
But she moves on

[Chorus]
She says "ooh my storybook lover
You have underestimated my power
As you shortly will discover"

[Verse 2]
The i fall to my knees
Shake a rattle at the skies
I'm afraid that i'll be taken
Abandoned, forsaken
In her cold coffee eyes
She can't sleep now
The moon is red
She fights a fever
She burns in bed
She needs to talk so
We take a walk
Down in the maroon light
She says "maybe these emotions are
As near to love as love will ever be"
So i agree
Then the moon breaks
She takes the corner that's all she takes
She moves on

[Chorus]

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