Great discussion... Joe Rogan and Cornel West

I thought this conversation was worth an essay to draw your attention to it. I found it powerful, and hope some of you might have an interest in listening.

Here's the entire discussion...
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViWvAnvT17c]

If you don't have 2 hours to listen (we've been listening and making tomato sauce), here's some excerpts...

10 mins on socialism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGeIElmCebQ

15 mins on Trump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgejWnHs1g

5 mins on black culture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp2m4Et0soM

7 min on racism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr-RvxacAn4

This is a great fun conversation. Hope some of you find it interesting.

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mimi's picture

gosh, what a treat to be able to listen to Cornel West again.
Thank you, thank you. Back to listening more and then getting rest.

Jesus never laughs. Heh, that's telling. If I were a mean person, I would throw that at a person, who told me what a bad person I am, because I am not adhereing to their understanding of being a good catholic. Oh, sometimes, somethings just coma at you at the right moment.

Good night.

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Lookout's picture

@mimi

I always enjoy his comments. Glad you can see these clips in your country. The internet has issues, but there are lots of benefits.

Glad you liked it!

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

k9disc's picture

Do yourself a favor, even if you don't have the 2 hours. At least turn it on and let the audio play in the background. Great show, for sure.

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

Lookout's picture

@k9disc

We play it on the TV with the stereo and turn on the out door speakers. That way we can busy around the house and porch and listen at the same time. Sitting and screen time isn't good for us. Doing and acting is. Fortunately we can do both simultaneously.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

k9disc's picture

kind of guy. I'm an extrovert who has more than a bit of screen time. And I schedule that screentime to be solo screen time. I write, here, elsewhere, and put my little world domination through dog frisbee ideas, text, images, and video together, and so need solo screen time.

I really can't afford the time to read, this place a few others, and the links from both excluded. I think Iike the video wallpaper idea because it tricks me into believing we're in a social situation. 'We' and 'social' is a key component to my thought process.

It's a real bummer when a piece of video HAS to actually be watched, rather than listened to.

I do dig some old stuff (Star Trek(s), Stargate(s), Harry Potter(s), Pirates('s), and LoTR(s) have been the backdrop of my books and classes. Alan Watts has been a particularly troublesome multitasking, thing, even though I don't have to watch him - just listening is plenty to stop a wandering mind in it's tracks. Yet his work is a key backdrop for mine...
@Lookout

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

The Liberal Moonbat's picture

Particularly helpful was his explanation of "representation" and vicarious living - it does a LOT to explain the downright disturbing behavior (let's call some of it "Afro-narcissism") I saw surrounding, for example, the Black Panther movie. I once got a political E-mail urging me to PLEDGE to see Marvel's Black Panther - you know, like doing so would be the equivalent of PLEDGING to go to Standing Rock or something. I never got any such E-mails asking me to do that for Selma or Moonlight. It was FUBAR. Online PACs ought to have better things to do than "pleasepleaseplease go see this big-budget Hollywood blockbuster!!1!!" - I mean, I could see an E-mail being sent out to alert people to an obscure, low-budget (or even banned) political documentary, but this? This was like those shrill, hysterical, crappy attempt at guilt-tripping, TYPES LIKE THIS!!! E-mails I'd been getting from the Dems in 2016. Even the people back on DailyKos agreed those were stupid.

Anyway, what Dr. West said about "representation" and wealth inequality within the ethnicity helped me make sense of the "Afro-narcissism".

By the way, what was this whole thing were he was in a blood feud with Ta-Nehisi Coates (and lost, for some reason)? What's that guy's deal, even? Why did it feel like people were trying to shove him down my throat at DailyKos?

One disturbing thing to come out of all that for me, though: I had to start thinking for the first time in my life about what African-Americans even had to do with ME. I never had a problem with black people. I've lived my whole life in places where "whites" were a minority, but there also were very few "blacks" (first Silicon Valley, then New Mexico). The black people I knew were good people - primarily the family whose matriarch swooped in after my grandmother died and became "Nana" to my then-baby brother, and her family basically became his second family. If I've ever been taught any prejudice toward blacks, it's that they're nice and I can trust them. A black cop pulled me over on the highway when I was speeding (New Mexico cops are hardly the nation's finest, particularly in Albuquerque, where their favorite targets are NOT people who are the same color that most of them are, but the mentally-ill and just plain weird - if someone like George Zimmerman had been stalking the streets of Albuquerque, he'd sooner have gone after ME than Trayvon Martin), did his initial chewing-out, but totally turned around when I started crying, and taught me how to use cruise-control, which my driving instructors (father included) all neglected to do.

I know American history - I read Black Like Me in middle-school, was introduced to A People's History of the United States in my freshman year of high school, and have always sympathized with black people's problems out of the simple goodness of my heart.

What's been going on recently, though, has forced me to realize something: I don't OWE them anything. There is no more reason I should care about them any more than I should care about Yemenis or Maldivans (REAL victims can't afford to piss and moan, let alone monetize their pissing and moaning, and don't even want to should circumstances get good enough that those options become viable). I grew up in Silicon Valley - they should perceive me the same way they'd perceive Oriental or Middle Eastern people, because that's most of who I grew up with. I may have the kind of skin that would make me a shoe-in for a role in a vampire/Tolkien movie, but I am NOT "white". My father's not "white", he's Jewish (Are Jews white? [url=https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2009/6/18/742552/-]a plurality of DailyKos says "No"[/url]). My mother's not "white", she's a miscegenating hippie (and I have concluded that a great deal of the very real hate directed at "hippies" had specifically racial undertones). NONE of my ancestors owned slaves (WTF are you going to do with African slaves when you're not even allowed to own land?), or ever lived anywhere near the South. Half my ancestry never even set foot in this hemisphere until the 20th Century, and the majority of the other half didn't make it here until after the Civil War. I have ZERO obligations to black people, if push comes to shove, and this new racism-with-progressive-lipstick basically buries me - who, being autistic, have never even felt nor wanted to be HUMAN, let alone some stupid subcategory thereof - in the wall like Fortunato at the hands of a sadistic, psychotic Montresor (no coincidence that "For the love of God!" has become one of my new favorite expletives for a while now). "IDENTITY POLITICS", AND ITS MALIGNANT PSEUDOINTELLECTUAL UNDERPINNINGS, DENY NOT ONLY MY VERY EXISTENCE, BUT EVEN THE POSSIBILITY FOR MY EXISTENCE.

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In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

Lookout's picture

@The Liberal Moonbat

I've dealt with it all my life here in AL and GA. We do the best we can recognizing our own guilt. We are visual creatures and POC are easily seen as others. Our national DNA is couched in genocide of first nations people and slavery of Africans. Racism is inherent in our national (perhaps global) genetics from my point of view. We all cope as we can.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@Lookout ...is this new "America is flat/'Post-Racial America is a myth'" doctrine. The whole country is assumed to be as racist as the South, and if you don't see it, that's just because you're "blind" somehow - forget about disproving a negative, the Falsification Principle, or even (should I say "especially?") presumption of innocence. The fact that it is "one planet, many worlds" or of the country changing like a petri dish of bacteria with growing pockets of penicillin mold are similarly verboten. THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH, AND IT APPLIES TO ALL AT A FLAT RATE - within the recognized legal boundaries of the United States, for some reason. It's like if the American West were still part of Mexico, or a colony of Japan (ever seen downtown Honolulu? You could be forgiven for thinking it was Tokyo), people wouldn't presume to lump us in with the South (which, for its part, has been continually playing the "everyone else is just as bad as us" card since before the Civil War - and OF COURSE New York and California are interchangeable, ha-ha-ha). There's no logical reason to. The connections, relative to all the other connections, are weaker than ever.

It. Simply. Isn't. True. I heard through the grapevine about a married couple, a "white" woman and a "black" man, who naively moved from somewhere else in the country to the South. They were a loving, committed couple who had never had any problems where they'd lived before - but the pressure of racism in the South singlehandedly forced them to divorce. That should tell you something. Where I come from, interethnic families are NORMAL. "Post-racial America" is REAL, had been growing, and to deny it ever existed is not just snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, it is CLIOCIDE. Not to mention the idea that "it's equally bad/good everywhere" is so false and misleading (think about it - nobody thought that in 2012) that it could literally get people killed.

Doesn't matter, apparently, because the Focaultian-fundamentalist holistic-simplistic Cult of Coates believes only in "narrative", and remorselessly bulldozes anyone, anything, everyone, and everything who contradicts theirs - which just happens to be the majority of the world and even just this country.

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In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

Lookout's picture

@The Liberal Moonbat

...and two bi-racial couples live on my road. They both have beautiful kids. I'm sure they suffer some prejudice, but they are a part of our small community.

things change...how fortunate.

all the best...

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Deja's picture

@Lookout
Thank you for saying it so simply, and eloquently (at least to me).

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@The Liberal Moonbat Regarding the feud with Ta Nehisi Coates, which he Cornell did not loose, in fact those of us who followed it all won. My best understanding of that feud- THN writes a book, maybe called For Eight Years We Were In Power extolling the greatness of Obama and suggesting it was a watershed moment for Black America and how much better off BA was because of Obama. Brother Cornell calls him out on the thesis of said book. Points out that by all metrics BA is worse off today, and being judged on a curve no administration has seen such downward mobility amongst BA than the Obama admin. Cornell points out all sorts of stats from home ownership, incarceration, employment, indebtedness, homelessness, and much much more and shows that there has never been an administration that has been so detrimental to Black Americans. Sure, there was a time when things were worse, but never a time period under one administration when things went backwards so fast so quick. So many of the gains of the previous decades were wiped out.
TNC and CW had at least an online spat- Twitter? or something similar? CW held his ground and in my opinion prevailed in the debate.
That is my best recollection and I only offer it up as at this time no one else has responded to this question of yours.
This spat has led me to believe that TNC (who I had previously had great admiration for) is possibly one of the worst incrementalist and undermining Uncle Tom's of our time. I know those are harsh words and if someone else has a better explanation of this spat I am open minded to hearing it. But to this day I find TNC pushing reparations IN THE WAY that he is to be terribly undermining and counterproductive to racial justice.
If one watches the entire video, which I recommend and thank OP for bringing it to my attention (this truly is worth your two hours) I think the conversation about "peacocking" relates strongly to this type of spat. (I think BAR might refer to those like TNC as "black misleadership class".)

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Lookout's picture

@wouldsman

...these days. Think of John Lewis's Bernie bashing in 2016. Why didn't Jessie J. come out in favor of Bernie? The AL 2016 dim primary was 15 points off from the exit polls.

As the essay title says...the color is green.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

karl pearson's picture

The Democratic establishment and its operatives consider Cornell West a fallen angel because he exposes the hypocrisy among certain groups of liberals and threatens the status quo. Thanks for the excerpts.

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Lookout's picture

@karl pearson

I like the idea of Saint Cornel. I loved his take on music in the interview. It was obvious music touched and effected him in a profound way. Another thing to love about him....

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Wally's picture

Lookout's picture

@Wally

To the point where he dealt with the dirty DNC types to push Bernie's agenda in the dim platform. Sadly the DNC was not honorable and backtracked on most of their concessions.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Wally's picture

@Lookout

And don't forget he supported Jill Stein in November.

No more superdelegates on the first ballot makes securing the nomination more difficult for all the establishment candidates.

And now they're all pretty much at least paying lipservice to Bernie's platform re M4A, etc. except Biden and a coupla other candidates who are in it just for the attention and an opportunity to cut deals.

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Lookout's picture

@Wally

And don't forget he supported Jill Stein in November.

And depending on the dims, I may vote green or DSA again depending on the options. My old buddy and retired judge was teasing me at Trade Day last week suggesting I buy a Trump 2020 banner. I even saw a Tee shirt saying "Vote Trump 2020 and make a liberal cry". I predict the south will go T-rump regardless of the dim nominee. FL and NC may be up for grabs?

Politics ain't a science I don't care what they say....

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@Lookout The whole idea of "social science" has proved itself to be nothing more than another 19th-Century conceit - a fine experiment on hypothetical grounds, perhaps, but it has run its course and failed. Badly.

Science is the study of that which is objectively real - that which remains true no matter what anyone believes. If belief can change it, then it is not science. Science is all about seeking and accepting the truth, as well as tolerating uncertainty. Science is supremely liberal in its vision, and supremely conservative in its methods.

Politics is PURE ILLUSION, as are its various noms de guerre: Society, culture, race, gender, creed, and economics. It's all just a big game of make-believe. It can be ANYTHING WE WANT. Reality in politics is determined by fiat, and "accepting the truth" just means dancing to the tune someone else has called.

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In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

Lily O Lady's picture

@The Liberal Moonbat

“Political Science” because they said it was not a science.

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@Lily O Lady ...that the term "Political Science" had initially been coined for the same reason that they came up with "Home Economics" classes in the 1950s.

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In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

k9disc's picture

Social science are well at home in modern, materialist science. That shit's played out.

Dark Matter's existence is far more a political question than a scientific one. The hardest of sciences are soft as politics these days, IMO, and are more tools for enforcing "truth" rather than pursuits of truth.

Hard science, the pursuit of truth is "pseudoscience" because it calls into question "what we know" and hamstrings our Epic Intellects.
@The Liberal Moonbat

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

Today was not the day.
Thanks for bringing to my (our) attention.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Dawn's Meta's picture

Two very bright, civil people having a sincere discussion about our times, with context.

The constant references to art, especially to music, speakes volumes to me.

I don't like to watch videos as usually I'd rather be doing something. However, I found this so uplifting in this incredibly uncertain and stressful point in planetary history.

Thank you to the several posters who have recommended this meaty, wonderful conversation.

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A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.

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