What people actually thought of communism
The Soviet Union collapsed because the people rejected communism.
Well, that's what we've been told.
I just ran across a historic referendum on the future of the Soviet Union which was held on 17 March 1991. Nearly 150 million people voted.
Do you consider necessary the preservation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics in which the rights and freedom of an individual of any nationality will be fully guaranteed?
77% wanted to keep the Soviet Union, yet six months later the Soviet Union was no more.
22 years later people generally thought this was a bad thing, which is not what we are told by our political, economic, and media elites.
Now obviously communism is the ultimate evil. The people of the Soviet Union would know better than anyone else. So what do they think?
According to the poll, 56 percent of Russians wished the Soviet Union had not collapsed, while 51 percent felt the state’s break-up was not inevitable and could have been avoided. Still only 14 percent felt re-establishing the Soviet system in Russia was possible today, which is 2 percent higher than in 2012.
The Levada opinion poll on the Soviet Union’s break-up has been conducted regularly since 1998, though more questions have been added in later instalments. The number of Russians mourning the Soviet Union’s demise has increased to the highest level since 2010, though the figure is still far from the record high reported in December 2000, when 75 percent of Russians said they regretted the break-up of the Communist regime.
In addition to the 14 percent who believe that the Soviet Union can and should be revived, 44 percent agree it should be, but admit it is not possible at present.
It brings up a couple questions.
Firstly, if so much of the population wanted socialism/communism to stay, why did it go away?
Also how does the narrative that the people rejected socialism/communism prevail and are glad it is gone, when the facts show the exact opposite? It's fake news that Fox News and the NY Times will agree upon with equal fervor.
Comments
I still remember
“Better dead than red”.
I beg to differ. I’d much rather be alive under any geopolitical situation than the current fear mongering, war mongering, psychotic situation this nation currently lives in.
Great find gjohn!
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
Kill a Commie for your Mommy
When I was a kid in the 70's I KNEW we'd all die in a nuclear holocaust.
Compensated Spokes Model for Big Poor.
Totally!
In the 70's and 80's (my formative years) I grew up right next to the Nafec - Naval Aviation facilities Experimental Center (Home of the Blue Angel's)
Every once in a while you'd hear thunderous launches, explosions etc.
Every time I heard something out of the ordinary or an unannounced missle test I'd wonder, "was that them pushing the red button?"
I grew up in a culture of fear, spent a large part of my childhood reading everything I could on how to survive a nuclear war.
My cousin and I were so sure it was going to happen we would train for survival.
We'd grab our .22 Rifles, a hunting and survival "Rambo" style knives, some water purification tablets, our pocket field guide of edible and medicinal plants and a basic mess kit, that's it. Oh, and maybe one canteen worth of water each, can't forget that.
We would go for the weekend during the school year and in the summer we wound disappear for
up to three nights or so.
Thinking about it now, I have some nostalgia towards it.
But I also recall the near constant fear that at any moment I might be reduced to nothing more than a radioactive mist or a blackened sillouette on a wall.
I was born into a nation at war, have been in them the the vast majority of my life and again fear that I might die in one.
Our nation is sick, right now it's like a feverishly delirious man with a head injury, wandering around muttering nonsense and lashing out at everyone age everything around him.
I more and more I consider moving to Finland and begging for asylum despite the cold.
But talking to my friends there they to are extremely concerned about Russia, and given thier history I dont really blame them.
I wonder if it's too late to try to hitch a ride on that extra solar asteroid?
I wish I could think of one stable nation that works for its people and not against them to try to relocate to...
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
@Alphalop thinking about it
thinking about it further, can you imagine the fallout if it came out today if a mother sent her 11 year old out with his 10 year old cousin to wander the woods carrying rifles and not provided food or any communication equipment?
We'd have likely end up in CPS's clutches.
I'm not saying it'd be right for everyone but I learned a lot more than how to survive.
It actually helped my self esteem and confidence in myself, not just how not to die.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Finland
I'm 1/4 Finnish. My maternal grandmother was from Finland, and I still have relatives there. I don't, however, understand the obsession with Russia. While there's bad history between Russia and Finland, there's also a similar but much longer bad history with Sweden. I seriously doubt that Russia has any current designs on Finland unless the US is successful in starting a war against Russia, in which case Russia would probably try to secure Finland as a buffer against the Yankee imperialists.
Great find, indeed!
Thank you, gjohnsit.
I think the poll may reflect an answer to the question you asked us last week, "Are you better off than you were?"
I don't think it necessarily means the people of the former Soviet Union preferred socialism/communism to anything in the world, but that instead what we brought them, meaning we, the United States in our interfering regime change, support for unfettered capitalism, drug running, gun running, terrorism, and trafficking of young people desperate for jobs into slavery, what we brought to the former Soviet Union was worse. Much worse. Unimaginably worse.
My memory is that the moment Gorbachev said he was looking to move the Soviet Union in the direction of social democracy and mentioned Finland as his example, he was gone. He was removed. That is the direction we wouldn't allow Russia to go in.
Spent a good part of last night reading on tovarish Paul Robeson
One of the great men of the 20th century, without a doubt.
Purposefully erased from American history books, such was his enormous, towering spirit with unbounded courage and dignity to speak truth to power in defense of the oppressed the world over.
There's so much to cover about his extraordinary life that it's literally dizzying.
This was a good short piece on RT not too long ago. It didn't shirk from talking about how he was he was basically killed by the CIA.
Here's another. He gives a textbook example of how to deal with RW thugs, shredding a couple of two-bit, low grade morons/caricatures of a bad 1950's radio program.
"Testimony of Paul Robeson before the House Committee on Un-American Activities, June 12, 1956"
"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"
- Kurt Vonnegut
Thank you
.
I had all but forgotten Paul.
My father, a greek immigrant, spoke often about him when I was young.
My thanks is for reminding me that I'm the most ignorant man in the world. So much to learn learn from the past and forget about looking forward.
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
Greek immigrant. That’s powerful.
Wonder what his interaction with/where his knowledge of Robeson came from. Then again he was one of the most popular singers in the world during his day.
Do you recall the context of which he would speak of him?
"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"
- Kurt Vonnegut
Thank you mark. Robeson is the original superhero for me.
And, I suspect I'm not the only one.
He had it all. Smart. So intelligent and quick. A great orator. Athletic. And, oh my, that voice. Heavenly.
And, he was disrespected, and treated like scum by people jealous of his talent and disgusted with his...skin color. How in the hell does that make any sense?
But yeah. Apparently, antifascism and anticolonialism is not where you go if you want to leave your name as a legacy in a capitalist world.
Thanks for the links that I can forward to those that I know care.
He really did have it all.
What a giant in so many ways.
I’m reading through this Folkways book called “The Great Forerunner.” So many powerful stories.
"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"
- Kurt Vonnegut
WOW!
Thank you, Mark. The first video was so informative, but his testimony blew me away!
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Here in Philly, . . .
. . . NO ONE erases Paul Robeson.
I used to live just around the corner from the home where he spent his last years. Around another corner, on a major thoroughfare, is a multistory mural of Robeson, standing tall, elegant, serene, and proud in West Philadelphia. His legacy runs through every conversation of social justice. His courage and eloquence are what we all aspire to. In a town where we name a park for Malcolm X (just a few blocks from the Robeson home), Robeson is still the closest thing we have to an earthly approximation of God. Everyone remembers. Or is educated.
ETA: Thanks for those clips! They're great!
Great stuff, dym
Thanks.
Think I remember seeing the mural there. I agree with all you say, and am thrilled to know he stil occupies such a prominent position among those seriously involved with social change.
But it’s as an author I just watched (can’t link video on my phone, sorry) said about Robeson. That Martin and Malcom walked on the path he laid, and that basically the Civil Rights movement could have been more significant if Robeson’s international status had been at the forefront instead.
"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"
- Kurt Vonnegut
I grow Paul Robeson tomatoes
developed in the Soviet Union in his honor. Delicious purple tomatoes.
Paul Robeson tomatoes...heh.
Could he have been anymore adored there? Mountain peak apparently too.
Just read the chapter from the book mentioned above that is called, “Paul Robeson: Great friend of the Soviet Peoples” by Slava Tynes.
Like your Captain Beefheart quote.
"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"
- Kurt Vonnegut
Beefheart
It's always interesting to see folks' interpretation of what he actually said, since there was no canon of printed lyrics. For instance, I once saw "A squid-eating doe" where I heard "A squid eating dough". In a polyethylene bag. Fast and bulbous!
What a genius. He treated the texture of language like sonic sculpture.
Added: I wonder if he could have sung a treatment of Robeson's music, in his bass growl.
This is a complicated subject.
I've been reading Svetlana Alexievich’s Secondhand Time: The Last of the Soviets
There are really two issues here, 1) How Russians feel about the loss of prestige that comes with the end of an empire and 2) How they feel about the end of communism.
It depends on age and circumstances. A lot of the older folks, their equivalent of our "Greatest Generation", are angry and feel betrayed. Many of these hated Gorbachev including, interestingly enough, at least one camp survivor. Many of the younger ones, the ones who read samizdat and wanted glasnost, The Beatles and blue jeans, are disillusioned with the vicious neoliberalism unleashed on their country. They cheered Yeltsin at first. It's complicated. I highly recommend Alexievich’s book.
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
Well done gjohnsit
This info is well known in Russia. They quote the original vote on breakup of the Soviet Union as almost 80% opposed it.
So to answer your question, Yeltsin is the reason. He was elected president of the Russian republic and despised his boss Gorbachev. The solution was to have a meeting with the heads of Ukraine and Belarus republics and agree to dissolve the USSR. this was extreme treachery as the citizens of the USSR opposed it by 4:1. Nonetheless Yeltsin was both mentally incompetent and greedy. Gorbachev was too weak to oppose. Both are generally considered traitors today.
If you ask a Russian today they will tell you that they would have preferred the Chinese model of gradual reform. As a result of this and interference from America the blood and sweat of the Soviet people was handed to a small group of Oligarchs, who are now fabulously wealthy. The resentment is massive in Russia today.
Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.
The stolen wealth
of the Soviet people was laundered to the west by thieves like Rump. I think he did it for almost 30 years. I really, really, really want his laundry hung out and exposed.
Mikhael Gorbachev received only .05% of the vote in '96
during his humiliating comeback bid for the Russian Presidency. Yeltsin and the westernizing "reformers" did him in rather than the communists.
Democracy of the style that followed 1991 was never widely popular in Russia. The vast majority of the Russian people five years after the fall of the Soviet Union rejected the man whom the West had awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Mikhael Gorbachev is scarcely more popular in his homeland today while Vladimir Putin won reelection in 2018 with nearly a 70 percent majority. There is a reason for that dramatic disparity in reputations within Russia.
"Democratization" was always far more popular in America than among those who experienced it inside Russia. But, I think, it was the shared hope for the end of the Cold War that drove most of the initial elation on both sides about the fall of the Soviet Union. Peace is more popular than the day-to-day realities of capitalism. It was the manifest failure of the promise of peaceful coexistence, cooperation and prosperity that really did in the opening to the West.
Russian opinion of the U.S. plunged dramatically in 1999 after the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia and the crash of the Russian banking sector and the ruble the previous year, demonstrating to many Russians that a decade of Yentsin's rule and his verbal support by the west had not brought with it any real security. Much of the immediate blame for the financial and currency crisis fell on speculators, particularly George Soros, who The New York Times identified a few months later as having been instrumental in the panic that had sent western investors fleeing Russian markets that summer. See, https://www.nytimes.com/1998/12/06/business/he-s-seen-the-enemy-it-looks...
The March, 2000 election of then Acting President Vladimir Putin with 53% of the vote in a multi-party race was Russia's response to the demonstrated economic and military vulnerability to the west. The Communist Party candidate came in second with about 30%. Putin since has proved generally effective in managing both, which explains the growth of his popularity while the Russian public view of the United States has simultaneously declined, notably after the western regime change operations in Syria in 2011 and 2014 in Ukraine.
Most recently, Russia! hysteria has had a real impact, demonstrating the continued hold that propaganda in the mass media has in America, particularly among those still identifying themselves as partisan Democrats:
Meanwhile, the stirrings of ill-feeling toward the other is largely reciprocated among the Russian people.
Nonetheless, contrary to the intensifying message we receive in the corporate press, most Americans today are not overtly hostile to the Russians, and few would support an actual war. Only one in five today view Russia as our greatest foreign enemy. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1642/russia.aspx
What one country anywhere in the world do you consider to be the United States' greatest enemy today? [OPEN-ENDED]
Recent trend
2018 2016 2015 2014 2012 2011 2008 2007
% % % % % % % %
North Korea/Korea (nonspecific) 51 16 15 16 10 16 9 18
Russia 19 15 18 9 2 3 2 2
China 11 12 12 20 23 16 14 11
Iran 7 14 9 16 32 25 25 26
United States itself 2 1 2 2 1 2 3 2
Iraq 2 5 8 7 5 7 22 21
Syria * 4 4 3 * -- * *
Saudi Arabia * * 1 1 1 1 1 3
Pakistan * 1 * 1 2 2 2 *
Afghanistan * 4 3 5 7 9 3 2
Middle East (nonspecific) * 3 4 2 -- -- -- --
It would be interesting to ask Sharon Tennison that question.
She has been leading citizen diplomacy trips to Russia and the former USSR for 40 years.
...
I met her back in the 80’s at a conference in Guadalajara, while I was volunteering for a while with a company in Texas to help organize these trips. Quite a woman.
Back then I went on two trips to the USSR, met with people in Estonia, Ukraine and Russia. People always said back then there would never be peace between the US and USSR until the Berlin Wall was taken down. Heh.
Then later in the 90’s I took my wife c99er jakkalbessie to Russia as part of a longer trip to China and Europe.
It has really saddened me to see the rekindling of the Cold War rhetoric, and the rapid build up march to war by TPTB.
A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.