When is the "lesser of two evils' too evil?
Big Bernie supporter here. I even switched from independent to vote for him. I donated and volunteered, first time I have ever put forth effort. I had never put that effort or interest into any politician before because I have always seen a system that is corrupt and owned by special interests. What's the point of choosing the lesser of two evils when they are eventually going to lead to the same fruition; oligarchy, plutocracy, whatever you wanna call it. So, when bernie came along, I figure it could be our only chance to bring back the party of FDR that fostered a prosperous time for the US. Perhaps a revolution?:)
So, here's my struggle. If HRC wins DNC, we are once again supposed to fall back into the position of choosing this lesser evil so that in end more ground will ultimately be given and this oligarchy that much further entrenched. For example, Obama stumped with opposing trade deals, but now is trying to pass TPP and I fail to see HRC veering from that same action regardless of what she is currently stumping with. At what point do we decide that the lesser of two evils causes more detriment than standing up against that slow burn of the lesser evil that has achieved the huge income inequality and destruction of the middle class we have today? I get it, that if trump is the nominee that can really change the typical conversation that this would be. In general, at what point do progressives not set aside their principles for the greater good and instead hold tight to those principles and demand the greater good? Just curious what y'all think?
Comments
The danger I see
is that DKos is going to go full "Everything about the other guy is evil, and therefore, everything about our guy must be good."
Trump is easy to hate, but that doesn't mean everything he says is wrong.
For instance, Trump says FTA's are killing us. He happens to be right. Hillary is for FTA's, and she's wrong.
But the inevitable Good vs. Evil we are already starting to see on DKos is going to turn reality on its head.
Just find/replace the words...
"God" with "Jesus" and (Insert Rethug Candidate Here) with "SAAAAAYTUN", on any fundamentalist evangelical sermon and you'll have a good idea what will be the argument du jour.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
And what's to stop smearing all of Trump's followers too?
Once you start down that road it's hard to stop.
If Trump is evil then his followers are evil.
If Trump is evil then everything he says is evil.
If Trump is evil then only Hillary can save us.
Therefore Hillary is good.
Therefore Hillary supporters are good.
Therefore people who attack Hillary are heretics.
Just how far down this road will DKos go?
dKos IS Redstate
there's no difference now, other than the different cast members.
You query:
As far down as the people will allow. We've opted not to go far down that road. The voices in the echo chamber want to go as far as Kos will allow. It's a sickness, really.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Short term or long term thinking?
Because liberals are empathetic as a group we see all sides of issues, the other guys's side, and are born willing to compromise and strive for win-win situations. We are told "don't let great be the enemy of good", "incremental progress is still progress" "Don't be a unicorn loving purity troll" "Supreme Court, Trump" yada yada. We will turn out even though we hate ourselves and continue to vote for the Party that sells us down the river.
The Tea Party/Far Right is a bunch of truculent idiots for the most part who would rather starve than compromise and who are more than willing to deny votes and sink their Party if their stances aren't adhered to.
Which group has been more successful in shaping the goals and agenda of their party?It's a cliche that Republicans fear their base and Democrats ignore theirs, but it appears to be true.
Democrats are loyal to Party identity and personality. Republicans are loyal to ideology and policy. The Republican Party has had far greater long term success. They have both houses of Congress. They have turned the state houses. They may get the Presidency this time around.
The Party that stands for nothing except for election time has pretty much politicked and compromised itself out of existence.
So I would have to say that the policy of lesser evil, from a practical point has not worked. We poisoned ourselves slowly, but we still poisoned ourselves.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
My personal reasoning goes like this
I do not believe that our politicians care one iota about phone calls, emails, petitions, or anything else that doesn't directly equate to them retaining their power. So that means I have one and only one tool to influence them... my vote. That means that I will not vote for an oligarchy candidate under any circumstances. Hillary won't get my vote. Nobody who endorsed Hillary or supported TPP will get my vote including my two useless senators -- Murray and Cantwell along with my useless "representative" DelBene. Nowadays my vote goes to populist candidates only.
The DNC has made this even more urgent with their new rule that they won't release VAN data to any candidate running against an incumbent. That means unless we crowd-source an alternative I have no choice to flip a seat red before I can turn it into a populist blue seat again.
On the positive front, I support the liberal populist candidates insofar as my limited economic means allow and we're slowly getting better ways to find them nation-wide. So for me it's a carrot & stick approach.
What I know for a fact is that as long as we the people will support democratic oligarchy candidates because republican ones are worse then we are screwed. A simple look at history demonstrates quite clearly that the lesser of two evils strategy has failed us miserably. This clearly depicts where it has brought us:
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Interesting
I would move Clinton a little further to the left (not much) and Trump a bit further to Libertarian and the left, but otherwise I have to agree.
I think you make a very
I think you make a very compelling argument with excellent factual support. Of course, I also agree with you 100% so that might influence my impression!
that's my problem with Bernie!
Yes, he looks very good compared to those others but I think most of us are much lower on this chart and much more to the left. If we call Bernie -2,0 (as in the coordinates, 2 to the left of center, midway between Lib and Auth) then he's as far away from me as he is from Hills.
I got -7.88, -7.59
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Ack, I feel almost Conservative...
-7.5, -5.69
But of course, that may be my military background...
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Yeah, I am way to the south and west of Bernie too..
But right now, he is all we have.
Economic Left/Right: -7.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36
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First Nations News
LOL, bunch of pinko commie hippies here
Economic: -6.5
Social: -6.6
For those that don't know... political compass
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Lesser Evil is not incremental progress
Now is when it's too evil. Now! Is
To a drowning person...
...it doesn't really matter if the water is fifty feet deep or a hundred!
If anyone tells me to vote Hillary to avoid Trump ...
... I am going to remind them that it was Bill Clinton who called Trump and encouraged him to run.
Good Question, Thanks for Asking
For myself, I am done with conventional politics and conventional political behavior which only leads to the entrenchment of the Oligarchs. I am also a Progressive Democrat and I do not vote for Republicans, whether they have a (D) after their names or not. HRC is, as we all know, as right-wing as she can get and I anticipate her completely turning away from all liberal promises she makes on the campaign trail. I will not be voting for HRC, and I don't care what the alternative is. She represents everything I stand against. My morals will not allow me to compromise. As they say, evil is evil, lesser or no. If Senator Sanders does not win the nomination, I will take my sore sixty-year-old feet and new hip and get out there and march for justice.
I will no longer vote the lesser of two evils.
My vote will be my voice. I will write in Bernie, if he is not the nominee, in order to state, emphatically - I support Bernie Sanders for POTUS. I'm done compromising on an establishment candidate. Ain't doin' it anymore! GO BERNIE!!!!!!!!!!!!
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
OK, you guys made me dig up mine again
But I'm afraid now you're going to vote me off the island.
Do I still get to post here or do I need to go back to TOP?
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard