Gish Gallop
I hadn't heard of this before today but it certainly appears to be a major part of the Clinton debate strategy:
Named for the debate tactic created by creationist shill Duane Gish, a Gish Gallop involves spewing so much bullshit in such a short span on that your opponent can’t address let alone counter all of it. To make matters worse a Gish Gallop will often have one or more 'talking points' that has a tiny core of truth to it, making the person rebutting it spend even more time debunking it in order to explain that, yes, it's not totally false but the Galloper is distorting/misusing/misstating the actual situation. A true Gish Gallop generally has two traits.
1) The factual and logical content of the Gish Gallop is pure bullshit and anybody knowledgeable and informed on the subject would recognize it as such almost instantly. That is, the Gish Gallop is designed to appeal to and deceive precisely those sorts of people who are most in need of honest factual education.
2) The points are all ones that the Galloper either knows, or damn well should know, are totally bullshit. With the slimier users of the Gish Gallop, like Gish himself, its a near certainty that the points are chosen not just because the Galloper knows that they're bullshit, but because the Galloper is deliberately trying to shovel as much bullshit into as small a space as possible in order to overwhelm his opponent with sheer volume and bamboozle any audience members with a facade of scholarly acumen and factual knowledge.
Gish gallop / Urban Dictionary
Unfortunately for Hillary she seems to have drastically underestimated how knowledgeable informed people are on the issues.
Comments
which is why we need to change our strategy
stop reacting to the bullshit. stop giving it credibility by reacting to it.
keep on message. we can't fight the system. we should stop trying. i always say: change the game, the board upon which it is played, and the rules.
we have to get them playing on our board.
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
This election is different
It is as if the bullshit is being hurled directly into a cat 5 hurricane. As hard as the media and rest of the Clinton operation are trying to disseminate it nothing seems to be sticking. The Michigan result especially bears this out - sixteen negative articles in sixteen hours in the direct run up to the election yet she still dropped a massive number of points. I suspect that, if the Wapo had produced such an onslaught during any previous cycle the effect would have been dramatic.
I personally don't tend to get involved in the claim/counterclaim to and fro as it seems pointless this time out tbh - and yes keeping on message is important and not difficult
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
you are right
and what is different is this: the bullshit isn't drowning Sanders. they keep trying to recreate a Dean Scream moment. and it just doesn't stick.
Sanders is in like in some kind of zen state. he doesn't give a fuck. let it fly, is what i think he is saying to himself. i have this one shot, and i'm not going to waste it explaining every shot.
the guy got a standing Ov during the debate in Florida for godsakes . . .
Sanders has Clinton playing on his board now . . . and every thing she hurls at him starts to make her look desperate.
#feelthebern
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
IMO
the reason it is not particularly effective against Sanders is that I believe he is the best at staying on message. So what happens is that all the clutter the Clinton campaign tries to throw at him is simply that so far ... clutter. I just hope he does not allow her to distract him off his message.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
And the real Irony is...
When he stayed on message, they accused him of "GASP" being a one issue candidate.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
I don't think even
they were serious about the one issue thing - or at least didn't have any great expectations for it. iow file under 'kitchen sink'.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Sanders decades of consistency
innoculates him from the kitchen sink approach but I think it runs deeper than that- any candidate who's positions are consistent would win out in the current environment. To put it another way, substance is finally winning out over superficiality.
Sanders really is the right person at the right time.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Cause for optimism
Exactly. I always thought that she would end up boxing herself into a corner strategically but the public's complete indifference to gotcha moments and minor gaffes this time out is the bonus territory of this cycle - and this goes way beyond Bernie Sanders, it marks the end of the TV era of politics.
Imagine a world where starting a war for profit is considered more newsworthy than whether a candidate sweats a bit or has awkward hand gestures in front of a camera.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Holy shit
Did you see Hillary's reaction to the standing O? The laugh? That was creepy as shit.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It was scary- almost clown like
I saw it, and I thought she is pissed and was thinking "how dare these peasants actual clap for someone other than their Queen"
I missed it
- luckily for me
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
for many, I agree.
Sadly, one only has to come close to some Trump meeting, and see a stadium filled with morons who refuse to be swayed by fact. It is a significant enough portion of our society, that one has to wonder about our viability as a civilized society.
Unfortunately
this is the one huge cloud to a great silver lining.
FWIW I think that most countries have a similar number of people who could be easily persuaded to support a fascist candidate or party. I think that the US makes it easier for fascists than other countries. The culturally agreed power and significance of the 1st amendment and the resulting lack of social/career embarrassment for holding views that are offensive are big factors.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
I say this frequently because
I say this frequently because we tend to forget it: by definition one half of the populace is below average in intelligence.
-Greed is not a virtue.
-Socialism: the radical idea of sharing.
-Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962
What's really funny
--or maybe not, maybe it's troubling--is that now WaPo is calling Hillary on her shit (article on ways she's misrepresented Bernie Sanders). I don't know if they're starting to get scared, or if this portends a new strategy.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
that baffled us as well
Seems to soon to be cutting ties with Clinton - would expect that to happen if she was in imminent danger of losing. Suspect that the second the Clinton's lose their leverage over the Dem establishment the exodus will be both swift and brutal.
(Us being my wife and I - she just came in my office and told me about the Wapo 180)
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
It's also a tactic used heavily by Holocaust Deniers.
As well as Climate Change Deniers,
The NRA,
And pro-forced Birthers.
It's a tactic that HIGHLY appeals to those that are not just trying to win, but are trying to SILENCE the opposing side.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Agree completely
I was aware of the tactic but didn't realize it actually had a name. To be honest I am surprised that anyone is taken in by it - so easy to spot.
Just had a thought (happens occasionally) - Team Clinton made the wrong assumption that it works on Dems the same way it does on GOP. It obviously works on some Dems but they are the likely to already be voting for her.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
To be fair...
.... it is currently working on more than half the democratic voters. By the numbers more Democrats are taken in by Hillary's baloney than Republicans are taken in by Trump's. I long ago gave up the idea that ANY partisan is anything resembling reality based. Reality itself is not partisan so no partisan viewpoint can conform to it. As an example, let me pull a plank from the Republican platform. I strongly believe that our supreme court should not be legislating from the bench and should be interpreting the constitution in as factual and unbiased a way as possible. I'm no more in favor of a "liberal court" than I am a "conservative court"... both are abominations.
The fact that Democrats drink the blue kool-aid does not make them any more sane, rational, or knowledgeable than those who drink the red kool-aid.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Agree regarding partisans
A person's politics should have a philosophical foundation not a partisan or personality based one. People and parties should be regarded as things to be adopted when they dovetail with the philosophy and only then.
Agree that the Judicial System should be apolitical to the degree that no position within it should be decided by election.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Agreed
however this has no play for the General Election. Cutting off your nose to spite your face and all that.
She is unelectable.
Progressive to the bone.
"trying to SILENCE the opposing side."
Bingo.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Hopefully
Sanders will win and that will mean an end of the Clinton slice and dice, divide and conquer politicking
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
HRC is utterly transparent about it too
...not least because she consistently runs WAY over time in debates & blatantly contradicts what everyone clearly saw her say just minutes before.
She obviously expects Democrats to have the memory of a housefly.
Romney did the same thing
in the first debate of '12.
With Clinton copying Rove tactics, it's not surprising to see her copy this too.
Luckily for us
her team are really slow at realizing that the tactic is working against her.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
It's risky for Hillary to use this strategy
because most people already think she's a liar.
It's more effective if you have a little credibility first.
Translation
throw tons of shit, some of it might stick.
Dirty, dirty, dirty candidate.
Progressive to the bone.