@Citizen Of Earth
With thousands of shots from a variety of weapons and ammunition, thousands of people scattering in all directions, lying down, standing, crouched, lying over and under each other, there is no chance of tracing the path of any particular projectile to any particular place. There are just too many shots and too many variables

Now if powder burns were to be found on some of the victims, that would be another thing altogether. But if they're not looking for powder traces, since the operative assumption will likely be that all shots arrived from a distance, then they will not find any powder traces, even if they are there.

Forensics are not likely to produce any definitive answers to the questions people might have about the possibility of multiple shooters or multiple firing angles.

I'm sure CSI examination can determine what direction bullets came from. And they aren't releasing any forensics as yet. So we'll see.

@ovals49 Do you mind if I use bit of info for a novel/screenplay/stageplay ( what, you can’t put on a successful show like this at the local playhouse?)?

with scores of wounded and dead, it would be a very convenient time and place to dispose of the bodies of a number of others, killed for very specific reasons at the same time and general location.

Just saying. There are people who would have no problem with an operation like that. Blaming a patsy lone wolf would be a convenient way to close the door on a real investigation of other possibilities.

@bondibox

A taxi driver was outside Mandolin Bay and she captured the sound of multiple gun fire and as she was leaving, the video captured the shooting coming from the 4th floor because of the muzzle flashes. This starts around the 5 minute mark.
She is speaking to someone and she is speaking on the video.
The one thing that she questioned was why everyone was so calm.

The gunfire sounds on this video suggests that there was more than one shooter, but maybe that was when he went to the other window.

I'll try to find the other video where people are pointing out that the shots were coming from the 4th floor.

One thing to watch for is the quick passage of previously drafted legislation.

If you were to listen to the usual rightwing suspects, they claim it is to implement draconian revisions to the 2nd amendment. But why? Well, that amendment protects us against a tyrannical government. Drop down the rabbit hole with me for a minute -- and revisit the list of false flag attacks upon our citizenry, beginning with Mark David Chapman's execution of the most powerful political figure of our time. Every time there's something fishy about the official story I end up believing it was the citizenry who were attacked by the government. Attacked by our own government, imagine that! Do you think it's possible?

One of the videos which has been removed was of gunfire coming from the 4th floor. There are videos of people watching that video, and soon they too will be removed. The strategy for removal is to violate YouTube's bullying and harassment guidelines.

Some have said that SP was too physically soft to have handled those weapons for five minutes. I'm not sure if I subscribe to that.

P.S. there are reports that he had rented condos around the Life Is Beautiful festival (feat. MUSE) the week before, so I don't know if it was specific to the country music concert.

@bondibox

Thanks! One rather interesting thing I came across looking through various videos following your link, was this, indicating what seems to look like a pattern of mass shootings within a few days preceding votes on gun legislation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1KEFx4bW1E

There is something strange about the dates

Published on 3 Oct 2017

As more events happen, there seems to be a pattern, of something strange within the dates, of the events. ...

This could easily be made (and could, I fear, potentially be intended) to appear that crazed 'liberals' were killing mass quantities of their fellow-citizens to try to encourage gun legislation to pass, despite virtually the only noticeable overall effect of such slaughters seemingly involving another increase in gun sales.

Meanwhile, Alex Jones is telling his (in my case, initially inadvertent and brief) listeners that there is going to be civil war, seemingly because of these damn 'liberals' being a threat to life and limb while attacking 'gun rights'. So I'm wondering if that's perhaps the actual reason behind this (very confusing - and carefully made so, I suspect) situation.

Get the American people in an all-out civil war fighting each other over indoctrinated 'political' labels, officially declare martial law and 'Mission Accomplished' for The Psychopaths That Be - fearing more than anything the forming cohesion between Americans seeing though the Two-Party Trade-off Trap and uniting against TPTB and their political/media lackeys.

It would not surprise me, is all I can say, since people have been becoming more and more aware of the failing propaganda and franticly exerted censorship being used to try to keep them docile and controlled during the remaining of the close-shave fleecing process of whatever remains to them, of what little they can still claim of both wealth and power not yet drained to the top fraction of the 1%.

Definitely too tired to try to make sense out of the many and various claims otherwise, but the whole horrifying mess stinks to high heaven and beyond, so I'm mainly looking at such as results and what sounds like propaganda/distraction/redirection incitements for a potentially intended direction on this otherwise senseless random slaughter...

One thing to watch for is the quick passage of previously drafted legislation.

If you were to listen to the usual rightwing suspects, they claim it is to implement draconian revisions to the 2nd amendment. But why? Well, that amendment protects us against a tyrannical government. Drop down the rabbit hole with me for a minute -- and revisit the list of false flag attacks upon our citizenry, beginning with Mark David Chapman's execution of the most powerful political figure of our time. Every time there's something fishy about the official story I end up believing it was the citizenry who were attacked by the government. Attacked by our own government, imagine that! Do you think it's possible?

One of the videos which has been removed was of gunfire coming from the 4th floor. There are videos of people watching that video, and soon they too will be removed. The strategy for removal is to violate YouTube's bullying and harassment guidelines.

Some have said that SP was too physically soft to have handled those weapons for five minutes. I'm not sure if I subscribe to that.

P.S. there are reports that he had rented condos around the Life Is Beautiful festival (feat. MUSE) the week before, so I don't know if it was specific to the country music concert.

@Bollox Ref

It's an obsession with superlatives, everything needing to be The Best or The Worst, depending. Something likely spawned by the overweening Psychopaths That Be ego, which believes itself to be The Only True Exceptional and which group has conditioned Americans to believe that they and their country are all included in this exceptionalism - although somehow law (too-often sponsored/interpreted by by TPTB ) applies to Non-Billionaire Americans in general, where it doesn't to those PTB and their lackeys thus enabled to suck their life-blood and that of everyone else on the planet. (TPTB'd actually be The Worst themselves, of course...)

but why is it that every news source seems to qualify this event as the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history?

Were there worse mass killings with matchlocks in early New England, that we don't talk about?

@gulfgal98 This link includes several videos of the sheriff at a press conference. The sheriff said two things: (1) there was no way that Paddock could have pulled this off without help and, (2) Paddock had planned to escape and did not intend to die. The sheriff refused to give details on either statement.

is asking questions. I would hardly call Zero Hedge a conspiracy site. Check out this Tyler Durden article.

@Raggedy Ann a couple of "answers" in our local news, I feel better. FBI is on the job.

Shooter's girlfriend says he was kind, caring man

Marilou Danley issued the statement after returning from her native Philippines and being questioned for much of the day by FBI agents still trying to figure out what drove Stephen Paddock to gun down 59 people at a country music festival from his 32nd-floor hotel suite.

“He never said anything to me or took any action that I was aware of that I understood in any way to be a warning that something horrible like this was going to happen,” Danley said in a statement read by her lawyer outside FBI headquarters in Los Angeles.
...
Paddock wired $100,000 to the Philippines days before the shooting, a U.S. official not authorized to speak publicly because of the continuing investigation said on condition of anonymity. Investigators are trying to trace that money.

Also, casino regulators are looking closely at Paddock’s gambling habits and checking their records to see whether he had any disputes with casinos or fellow patrons. In addition, investigators are examining a dozen financial reports filed in recent weeks when he bought more than $10,000 in casino chips.

Paddock had no known criminal history. Public records contained no indication of any financial problems, and his brother described him as a wealthy real estate investor.

Danley, who out of the country for more than two weeks, said she was initially pleased when Paddock wired her money in the Philippines to buy a house for her family. But she later feared it was a way to break up with her.

It sounds to me like she is cooperating. Also, it sounds like the guy was stinking rich, you know how "they" are. Access to everything always, how unsurprising. Monsters. /reverse discrimination
---

Regarding that cab video I watched a second time, still can't be sure about another shooter. All I see is a strobe, nothing like barrel flashes from lower floors. The sounds match with the killer changing windows and weapons, direction and sound changed from room angles. One volley of rounds near the beginning sounds just like an echo to me. I don't know.

For sure there was mass hysteria, I mean that one in the cab yelling "there are a thousand people dead" she was hysterical, I would be too? Trauma makes people do, and say, and hear and think and react differently.

Good to hear that sheriff say more about the ongoing investigation, killer was NOT a lone wolf. That's big news if you ask me.

Edit: same article, added quote about house money.

We need to see what happens to her. She was immediately taken into custody - why? - to ensure she doesn't reveal anything? Wasn't $100,000 wired to "her" in the Philippines? (Where did he get $160,000 to gamble with? Was he a wealthy 1%er? ) Will she suddenly get ill? Have an "accident?" She is suddenly out of the news? Why is no one interviewing her?

@wagdog

I can say, with a fairly high degree of confidence, that Stephen Paddock was an experienced shooter with training and practice. Lots of practice. The distance involved combined with the types of weapons used (bump stock auto) and the fact it was nighttime make for a challenging shooting environment. To have killed 58 and injured 500 means he was on target the whole time. A virtual impossibility for a 'crazy with a gun'. He was either insanely lucky, had the skills to do what was done, or not alone.

@WoodsDweller

I certainly understand there are lots and lots of pragmatic reasons (read that as "history") to not trust the establishment. But so far, at least, almost every alternate theory or question I've seen proposed or asked on this topic seemed specious at best. Sure... it could've happened that way but also maybe not.

Some of what I've read though does raise some questions. For instance, the complete and total lack of any sort of advanced warning... at all... is worthy of some questions. One might also wonder about the vaunted domestic surveillance capability we allegedly need to keep us safe. Where was that? It certainly didn't protect us against this act of terrorism. Why would I think it'd protect us against any other? Finally I have some questions about casino surveillance. My general understanding is that you can't pick your nose in a casino without the camera's seeing you. This does seem like an awful lot of goings on to slip past all that surveillance.

But none of those questions add up to "government is lying". They're just questions.

And I'm seeing more rubbish than fact.

The Zero Hedge article "Sixteen Unanswered Questions" and another article it references "More than one Vegas shooter, the Evidence Builds".

* The taxi driver video. I've watched it, commented above. Doesn't sound like multiple shooters to me. As to a possible 4th floor shooter, there aren't any broken windows so no shots were coming from there. Police could have easily been mistaken in the dark, seeing a strobe light in someone's room and not being able to tell there was no broken window. You cannot get a firm location on a sound that is bouncing between glass fronted buildings.
* Paddock didn't have 42 guns in his room, most were still in Mesquite. A thousand rounds of .223/5.56 fits in two ammo boxes, you can easily carry both at once. I'm more curious about carrying rifles, but we've discussed that in previous threads.
* "Not a gun guy"? We'll know more by checking the dates of purchases. If he bought five guns a week leading up to this that's suspicious. If he bought one per year through his life he was definitely a "gun guy", but maybe didn't spend all his time talking about it.
* I also read that Natural News article, it's rubbish. "Running these systems requires...". We're talking about two different things. Using a 30 caliber full automatic weapon trying to do aimed fire for a sustained period is indeed demanding. The weapons I saw in photos were .223/5.56. There is very little felt recoil, much easier to control. Jams, if they occur at all (quality gun, decent ammo, you may not have a jam for 1000s of rounds), are from overheating which warps the metal. That's why he had multiple weapons, to switch them out.
* HE WASN'T AIMING. He was firing wildly into a dense crowd of 22,000 people.
* What about the woman telling them they were going to die? How many crazy people are wandering around a concert? Without any further evidence I don't think she is associated.
* Why did it take so long to get to the shooter's room? Could be a lot of things, including "hey, did he wire the door to explode? Let's take a few minutes and check."
* "If he was so wealthy, why would he all of a sudden snap like that?" -- Huh? Rich people don't do bad things? What are you smoking and can I get some?
* "Why did he move so frequently? It is being reported that Paddock had 27 different residences during his adult life." -- I've been interpreting "real estate investor" as "house flipper", we need more details if this is going to lead anywhere.
* "Why were all the exits from the venue completely blocked?" -- maybe because people who run concerts are jerks?
* Why a country music festival? Maybe because that was the concert happening when he chose to do this?

Questions about the total number of rounds fired are interesting. All the spent brass should be in the room.
500 people wounded doesn't mean 500 shots. The victims were tightly packed, at least at the start. Some rounds may have broken apart on impact and sprayed bits around. Many shots would have missed entirely. If they find 2000 spent brass in the room then all the shots probably came from there. If they only find 100 brass then we have shooters in multiple locations, and there will be brass in multiple locations. Alternate shooters aren't going to spend precious escape time trying to clean up their brass in the dark. There are such things as brass catchers, but they only hold a few cases not hundreds.

This "only shot for 240 seconds" thing is new, and worth looking into.

"It was dark ... [bump fire] cannot be used accurately ... to fire 500 aimed shots ... there would be bullets going everywhere"
HE WASN'T AIMING -- there were targets everywhere

So I'm still calling rubbish. We need more facts. Let's hear how many casings were recovered from the room.

@Blueslide the reason we never get gun reform is politicians sold out to the NRA, cop unions, and every other monied institution that would buy them a long time ago. Nobody cares about the victims until they are one.

When pols start talking about disarming civilian cops from military equipment at the same time, that is a good start I think, a solution. Until then it's all blahblah window dressing with no real progress. Armed nuclear drone-swarms launched from submarines or space, that is the military goal and they want expertise to do it, like commercial vendors are working on already. Prime.

No rural community in California is going to give up their "militia" until the civilian cops disarm from military hardware too, that's what I think. California is a bit like an armed Catalonia, lots of people outside of Sacramento go WTF, like why even pay taxes when Sacramento can't trickle down enough to fill potholes anymore, much less encourage affordable housing or living wages. Latest transportation bill is way too little, way too late. Again! Yet people are grateful to have a pittance. $10.50 per hour. Thank you sir, may I have another?

thwack

These weapons are highly accurate and very deadly. Shooting across a crowd the way he did, it was probably hard for him to miss. The weapons also have the ability to penetrate more than one person with a single round.

It is VERY easy to buy these guns legally. I have bought one myself. All I had to do was give my drivers license so they could make sure I was not a felon. I think it took all of 15 minutes at my local gun shop. I'm sure they would have taken my money for another gun had I desired.

I am not interested in the false flag arguments until there is some evidence. I saw the 4th floor film and wondered how someone was shooting unless there was a broken glass or they had a balcony. There is no balcony and the window appears intact. I checked Snopes and they say the 4th floor shooter is hokem.

The reality is someone with some money, a little time for planning and boatload of sociopathic tendencies, can pull of a similar slaughter. Of course our regulators MIGHT leap into action and make bump stocks illegal. An action which is only peripherally relevant to the matter at hand.

We need real gun reform. I propose we make it a federal crime to possess a firearm which carries more than 6 rounds of ammunition AND that can be reloaded within 5 seconds (eliminating ammo clips, speedloaders etc). It won't do anything about the guns that are out there, but it will insure that the guns made and sold from now on can have a legitimate purpose beyond killing lots of people.