@eyo
I don't go to the Farmers Market to buy vegetables. I go to buy vegetable starts, and take them home and plant them. Small patches can produce (8'×8') a lot of vegetables.
I understand your frustration eyo, but that is where they want all of us, frustrated. You must resist.
I was born in West Virginia. In the heart of Appalachia. I KNOW poverty!
Truly, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.
Peace.

#2.2 "CREDEXIT" Almost there now, amazing how much "good credit" is expected in modern life. When you're poor it is the only safefty net, that's what I found. Of course it's not a "net" it's a "trap" for most, so I'm entering an era without. I hope. It's a challenge sourcing nutritious food in the heart of wine country.

Unfortunately our new "Community Market" has already proven to be a Whole Foods Markup wannabe. Third time (and last) I purchased some Bobs wheat germ, got home and bzzt already expired! Market wasn't even open on the Expiration Date, so I don't know they're thinking.

Good ole boys just announced the Friday Farmers Market is not coming back, just the dancing party parts. The other Tuesday Market is artisan veggies, real pretty and also too expensive. Oh well.

I've also been doing a lot of sidewalk chalking for peace, taking advantage of the busy street I live on. At least people see a peace sign as they speed by in their rage. Maybe.

Thanks

@eyo
to live in one of the most beautiful places on earth.

#2.3 thanks, it's another challenge 'cause I live at the end of the line that doesn't have very good service. And I can no longer travel to Hopland fifteen miles north, different county different system. I'd have to stay overnight in a hotel to shop there now. California is great for the "FTE sector", I guess. Not so much down here in the sick-and-tired-senior-on-fixed income ditch, not so much.

Peace & Love

@eyo So your computations are already outdated.
I get it though, lithium is limited...... here on terrestrial earth. The future holds great promise for mining asteroids and even the moon.
How do we move to that point. By making fossil fuels less valuable.
If just a quarter of American drivers used all electric cars it would devastate the fossil fuel industry. Since Americans consume the overwhelming majority of fuels and oils this would Jumpstart the search for more lithium, including worldwide.
Remember that electric vehicles use very little petroleum products since they have, essentially, one moving part. Of course, wheels and steering mechanisms need lubricants but the amount pales in comparison to the typical gas guzzler. Also too, no need for gas or diesel or oil filters, or air filters, smog pumps, or tranmissions.
Of course, not everyone can make due with an economical EV. Some people travel beyond the limits of a Leaf. But I have family and friends with brand new ICE (internal combustion engines) but rent cars for long trips just to save wear and tear on their cars. Not to mention the savings in fuel by renting a compact for that trip to California or wherever. I would do the same if I didn't already have an ICE car for just that purpose.
The Leaf gets me and my SO around town for 95% of our errands and visiting our extended family and friends. We have even taken it camping.
Did my electric bill go up? Yeah, it did. But I'm still accessing it due to an abnormally cool and rainy winter and spring. But it doesn't appear to have gone up that much.
Incidentally, the 3.3 kwh Leaf flat hauls ass! Eats battery power when you hot rod it though.
Peace.

#2.3 What do think about battery technology, is the following information pertinent in your view? Is there something like Moore's Law for storage tech too? I don't know. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/eason2/ "... we could imagine using the entire world lithium production to make nothing but Nissan Leafs" LOL stretch much? But get the idea:

How Much Lithium We Need

Lithium-ion electric vehicles can be designed with a large variation of battery capacities, so I will (somewhat arbitrarily) base my analysis on the Nissan Leaf electric car, which has a 24 kW·h battery. [11] There are electric cars with smaller batteries than the Leaf (e.g., Chevrolet Volt) and larger batteries (e.g., Tesla Model S), so the Leaf's battery strikes a rough median. Every 10 kW·h requires 1 kg of lithium, so it takes at least 2.4 kg of lithium to make this battery.

If all other lithium industries suddenly evaporated, we could imagine using the entire world lithium production to make nothing but Nissan Leafs. At 2 × 107 kg of lithium per year, we can make 8.3 million of them. Using all 9.9 × 109 kg of the world's lithium reserves, we can make 4.1 billion Leafs; using all the identified lithium resources (2.55 × 1010 kg), we can make 10.6 billion Leafs.

If we would like to have a North American standard of living for everyone in the world – say, 1 car for every 2 people – then we would need about 3.4 billion Nissan Leafs. This would use 32% of the identified resources (all known lithium in the world), or 82% of the reserves (all lithium that is currently economic to produce). Even with widespread recycling, that seems like an unsustainable prospect.

Remember that the limits on battery capacity are fundamental. The only ways this percentage can go down are:

Battery capacity exceeds 73% of the theoretical maximum (unlikely)
New deposits of lithium are discovered and made economic (unknowable)
Smaller lithium-ion batteries are used (shorter range)
Fewer cars are built with lithium-ion batteries.

This suggests to me that if all the world's cars are going to be made electric, it is likely that a mixture of battery technologies will be used. It is certainly possible to build millions of electric vehicles with lithium-ion batteries, but it may not be possible to make billions of them.

Thanks

@eyo
By building my garden soil organically, by using biochar and mimicking Terra Preta manmade soils as practiced by ancient Amazonion peoples.
Even my lawnmower is battery powered. Composting is just habit now.
Not everybody can do these things. But those who can, should.

#2.3 What do think about battery technology, is the following information pertinent in your view? Is there something like Moore's Law for storage tech too? I don't know. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/eason2/ "... we could imagine using the entire world lithium production to make nothing but Nissan Leafs" LOL stretch much? But get the idea:

How Much Lithium We Need

Lithium-ion electric vehicles can be designed with a large variation of battery capacities, so I will (somewhat arbitrarily) base my analysis on the Nissan Leaf electric car, which has a 24 kW·h battery. [11] There are electric cars with smaller batteries than the Leaf (e.g., Chevrolet Volt) and larger batteries (e.g., Tesla Model S), so the Leaf's battery strikes a rough median. Every 10 kW·h requires 1 kg of lithium, so it takes at least 2.4 kg of lithium to make this battery.

If all other lithium industries suddenly evaporated, we could imagine using the entire world lithium production to make nothing but Nissan Leafs. At 2 × 107 kg of lithium per year, we can make 8.3 million of them. Using all 9.9 × 109 kg of the world's lithium reserves, we can make 4.1 billion Leafs; using all the identified lithium resources (2.55 × 1010 kg), we can make 10.6 billion Leafs.

If we would like to have a North American standard of living for everyone in the world – say, 1 car for every 2 people – then we would need about 3.4 billion Nissan Leafs. This would use 32% of the identified resources (all known lithium in the world), or 82% of the reserves (all lithium that is currently economic to produce). Even with widespread recycling, that seems like an unsustainable prospect.

Remember that the limits on battery capacity are fundamental. The only ways this percentage can go down are:

Battery capacity exceeds 73% of the theoretical maximum (unlikely)
New deposits of lithium are discovered and made economic (unknowable)
Smaller lithium-ion batteries are used (shorter range)
Fewer cars are built with lithium-ion batteries.

This suggests to me that if all the world's cars are going to be made electric, it is likely that a mixture of battery technologies will be used. It is certainly possible to build millions of electric vehicles with lithium-ion batteries, but it may not be possible to make billions of them.

Thanks

@earthling1 for a large segment. Good info though

#2.4
Not so, divineorder.
As I have posted before with all the incentives, both Federal, State, manufacturer, and dealer, I drove away with a $35,000 Nissan Leaf for less than $18,000. Range anxiety is overblown.

@eyo

#2.4 that's how I get my exercise, thanks. I walk everywhere now, or take the bus. My e-bike from '03 has dead batteries, and it is very painful to grip the handles so I don't ride much. Still trying to figure out how to survive actually, it doesn't look good but I don't dwell there.

Have fun.

@eyo
in Syracuse in April 2016 when it was still cold, and still snowing. (barely). About 150-200 of us. Got more than a few car horns of support, as well as a few fingers, but mostly we marched to inform people of the upcoming NY Primary - and that they should vote for Bernie.
Well, Bernie lost Syracuse (and the District there) by 6, 7 points. I'm not sure if our march made any difference. But I would do it again.

#2.5 I'm not gonna party (or travel) while the world burns, but go on. It's really clear to me now what divides community, I live in a different world. Good luck holding on to what you got, I can tell you're enjoying it and I have no care about it personally, only systemically. If you want to party, have fun. A lot of people want to party right now.

P.S. My total income is less than a Nissan Leaf, and I know people who are struggling to get by on far less in Sonoma County. It is NOT because they don't "work hard". Let that meme die in a fire. Kick myself every day for selling my house in Y2k, my mortgage payment was less than current room rental so wtf? I remember really not wanting to belong to GWBs "Ownership Society" except didn't account for every D around me to turn dickhead landlord for a living, professionally. And the healthcare system gets totally pwned by Insurance, while D pols became evermore complicit innovating the systems of legal bribery. My "choice" to get soaked, apparently. "That's the system." Minumum wage is $10.50 and hour, that is not worth congratulation. Forget compassion, the world needs empathy. Bigly.

@PriceRip

Dear PriceRip, if you'll pardon my focusing on one portion of your reply and ever wonder why I adore you, especially in a world of ignorant, greedy, reality-denying, fat-headed, billionaire-tech-donor-worshiping politicians obliterating government science and regulatory agencies for destructive corporate profiteering:

... There is a world of difference between science and technology. In political discussions those differences tend to get ignored, surprise!

I would like to see this sort of thing end, but I doubt many really care to make the distinction. Many industrial scientists have long ago stopped being scientists. While many technicians, and engineers have become scientists. ...

Technology is a tool; I would never have thought anyone outside of a corny old science-fiction movie would believe that it should and must replace biology, but that appears to the plan for enough billionaire donors for their political recipients to mindlessly continue to eliminate the natural, self-sustaining life support system for their further profit in the belief that Super-Tech will save them and make them immortal.

It seems appropriate that so many here select Duck Duck Go over Google as a main search engine... especially as the various birds and returning ducks and geese here are fewer every year. I've seen very few small birds this year ( a few sparrows in the still-bare branches and a few larger birds splashing in the fish-pond out back on a recent sunnier and warmer day,) and heard only the odd and unhappy-sounding goose and one duck so far - at night, yet, when they ought to be settled at the near-by park pond - and now it's been dumping snow at the end of April...

Who'd want to live without life?

#6.1

          We talk about STEM programs, and STEM students to emphasize that there are four related but distinct disciplines.

          There is a world of difference between science and technology. In political discussions those differences tend to get ignored, surprise!

          I would like to see this sort of thing end, but I doubt many really care to make the distinction. Many industrial scientists have long ago stopped being scientists. While many technicians, and engineers have become scientists. But this truth is way to messy to bring up in a political discussion. Feynman is famous for having bestowed the title "Doctor" on a technician of particular note during the Challenger investigation.

@PriceRip

One can always vary in meal-time worship; in example, we just had disorganized (the essence of) meatballs in either hard/soft tacos (noodles in an even more inclusive form) and kept the spirit, even if in a beerless fashion, and we're certain that the FSM approves. (The dog didn't, as I, at least, failed to save her any, but she gets home-made human-quality dog food over her dry-food supper anyway.)

#8 #8.1

          I Am Saved ! Never To Be Lost Again ! At least not until dinner time, anyway.