Syria & Sarin... round 2
In my opinion, the claim of "conspiracy theory" has become the Democratic party's new way to shut down honest discourse entirely. In this case, I was accused of being a conspiracy theorist because I had doubts about both of the claims of Assad gassing his own citizens. Our Neoliberal party quickly trots out the label "conspiracy theory" the moment an idea does not conform to the group-think. This is what I wrote back to my accuser... a man defending Obama's actions in Syria and repudiating Trumps.
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Ah yes... the ever-popular way to shutdown critical thinking. I'm a conspiracy theorist, eh? If so, I'm in good company.
The context of your argument:
You are advocating that Obama’s actions were reasonable and considered while Trump’s were not. In doing so, you are advocating for war crimes. That, right there, ought to at least knock you off your moral and intellectual high horse. In case you are wondering why I find neoliberals horrific that ought to highlight the point. I personally would prefer to question whether war crimes are ever justifiable but I’m willing to work within your framework here and question whether the justification was valid. To do so, I’m going to take a trip down memory lane.
The broad historical overlay
Starting at the broad levels, The US has a long and storied history of regime change... both overtly and covertly. So, positing covert regime change in this case hardly rises to the level of automatic crack pot assumption. Conversely, the US has an impressively poor record at intervening when there's an obvious humanitarian crisis happening (and no oil involved). In addition, our human rights record is not so hot both inside and outside our own borders – extrajudicial black sites, torture, assassinations, etc. etc. I assume that I don’t need to document any of that.
In the broadest of pictures, the US is an imperialistic nation. We cover this up with cute phrases like “national interests”. The problem with that phrase is "national interests" means the interests of our plutocrats. Surely we're not fighting over all that oil because it's going to make me rich. We’ve cut a long, bloody swath across much of the globe and that is simply historical fact.
So, with that context, let’s zoom-in on the Mideast and our recent efforts there.
Iraq:
Surely there is no question that the WMD never existed and the entire thing was trumped up. Bush had to bypass his own intelligence community and the UN weapons inspection team to get the answers he wanted. Iraq was not a mistake based on faulty intelligence. That means it was a deliberate lie and makes the entire episode a war of aggression -- a war crime. It also leaves open the question, What was the real reason we destroyed Iraq?
Libya:
In this case, we can see that my fellow conspiracy theorists include the British Parliament. As people who were reading the actual news knew all along, the human rights pretexts for that war were bogus. I could give you other links but surely a report from the British Parliament... bosom buddies with the US... should carry some weight?
Now, stopping for a moment to keep score, we have two administrations from two parties both doing the exact same thing… lying to the US public to justify a war in the Mideast. That raises a few red flags. In and of itself it is horrific. But beyond the betrayal that represents, a curious person might start wondering about the actual motives. This is where you find out about the actual geopolitical interests which are varied but include things like Israel, pipeline routes, gold reserves, the world bank, and the petrodollar -- all closely intertwined issues relating to economic dominance and our inexplicable subservience to Israel. Again, none of this is secret. It’s just not reported in US legacy media.
By the way, back in 2010 Libya had the highest standard of living, the lowest infant mortality rate, and the highest life expectancy in Africa. Libyans enjoyed free health care and free education (Global Research Report) Of course, the picture is somewhat different now:
Open air slave markets in Libya.
Syria:
Syria is a complicated topic and it's easy to range far afield. But if you'd like a real background on the Mideast and Syria then Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. has put together a really well written piece:
While the compliant American press parrots the narrative that our military support for the Syrian insurgency is purely humanitarian, many Syrians see the present crisis as just another proxy war over pipelines and geopolitics. Before rushing deeper into the conflagration, it would be wise for us to consider the abundant facts supporting that perspective.
Syria - Another Pipeline War, Robert F. Kennedry, Jr.
I found that link rather depressing. I thought I was pretty well aware of how thoroughly the US has been screwing Syria over and it turns out I'd hardly even scratched the surface.
The CIA began its active meddling in Syria in 1949—barely a year after the agency's creation. Syrian patriots had declared war on the Nazis, expelled their Vichy French colonial rulers and crafted a fragile secularist democracy based on the American model. But in March of 1949, Syria's democratically elected president, Shukri-al-Kuwaiti, hesitated to approve the Trans Arabian Pipeline, an American project intended to connect the oil fields of Saudi Arabia to the ports of Lebanon via Syria. In his book, Legacy of Ashes, CIA historian Tim Weiner recounts that in retaliation, the CIA engineered a coup, replacing al-Kuwaiti with the CIA's handpicked dictator, a convicted swindler named Husni al-Za'im. Al-Za'im barely had time to dissolve parliament and approve the American pipeline before his countrymen deposed him, 14 weeks into his regime.
I had no idea that we've been screwing with them for almost 70 years now. The more things change, the more they stay the same. This is the reality of the United States that few Americans know. This is the "fake news" that you've been warned about.
By the time we got to the first Sarin incident on 21 August 2013 in Ghouta, the whole thing should have been viewed at least somewhat skeptically by any reasonable person given what's gone on so far. What are we even doing there? The story changes on a day-to-day basis but you seem to be focused on the "protecting innocent civilians from the brutal dictator Assad" line so let's work with that.
For starters, let’s discuss terminology. I argue that the term “civil war” is misleading. More accurate would be a handful of malcontents… terrorists in fact… are seeking to overthrow the democratically elected government. These groups… now numbering upwards of 1000, are armed and trained by outside forces… the US figuring prominently in that roster. It would be akin to Russia giving advanced military weaponry and training to that idiot group that took over the wildlife refuge. And then did so to another 999 similar groups. Once a great big bonfire was burning, would you call it a civil war?
General Wesley Clark… another noted tinfoil hatter… had this to say about it:
Indeed, a “real revolution” with the help of U.S. arms, Saudi and Qatari funds, Turkish logistical support and Israeli intelligence is under way. But it is certainly not the Syrian people’s revolution. In fact, such revolutions were planned by the Bush Administration for 7 countries including Iraq, Libya, Syria and Iran, as testified by Gen. Wesley Clark, former supreme commander of NATO. And one by one they are being implemented.
That is much more credible to me given how the US has behaved historically and given what's known of the geopolitical situation. We’re toppling the governments of 7 nations for, I’m sure, various geopolitical reasons. Neither terrorism or humanitarianism are among those reasons.
It’s worthwhile noting that this evil dictator Assad presides over a particularly good period in Syria’s domestic affairs. GDP is WAY up. Unemployment was in great shape until 2011 (I’m guessing we messed that up). Life expectancies were WAY up. Overall, while there were certainly things to complain about, it seems likely to me that most of his citizens were reasonably pleased given that they’d been doing quite well…. Until we came along. Happily, there's a way we can get some insight into how the Syrian people feel about their own government. Here's an excerpt from gjohnsit's story:
...So how can we determine what the Syrian people want if you can't hold a fair election? Actually there is a way. The Syrian people have consistently "voted" with their feet, and since their lives depended on it, this vote matters a lot more than any checked box...most Syrian refugees never actually flee Syria. Where do they flee to in Syria? Government-controlled areas
-- Why don't we let the Syrian people decide?, gjohnsit
Syria & Sarin, rev 1:
But let’s move on to the first round of “Assad is using Sarin gas on his citizens”. There are some people who don't believe the attribution for those Sarin gas attacks. Those people include the Turkish government who ran a case against its own officials for transporting the precursors. This story does a wonderful job of summarizing it. If you follow the links, however, you get to hard to discredit things like an internal prosecution by the Turkish government and the NY Times "updating" its own story. Given that paper's role in previous lies, that's a fascinating thing in and of itself.
Honestly, the only thing I don't understand is why Ray calls Obama "mousetrapped". Given the pivotal role the US played in all of this, it seems more likely to me he was complicit but I'm also loathe to discredit Ray's thoughts without solid evidence. But the lack of a National Intelligence Estimate and the corresponding lack of evidence coupled with the previous history is surely, at this point, no longer "crazy conspiracy theory". These are hard facts -- just not reported in legacy media. Another group who has some questions about what happened there is the United Nations: The United Nations inquiry into human rights abuses in Syria.
Our investigators have been in neighbouring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals and, according to their report of last week which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated,” Ms Del Ponte said in an interview broadcast on Swiss-Italian television on Sunday.
“This was used on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities,” she added.
Ms Del Ponte said the inquiry has yet to see any direct evidence suggesting that government forces have used chemical weapons, but said further investigation was required before this possibility could be ruled out.
The Veteran Intelligence Professionals For Sanity folks are another bunch of clear tinfoil hatters who haven't been able to come up with any evidence. Another group that has some problems with the evidence is the UN weapons inspection team. Once before the United States ignored the UN weapons inspectors and it gave us the shame of Iraq. So before we repeat that same error, I'd urge you to stop listening to pundits and go ahead and read what the UN inspection teams say. They're reports are publicly available right here.
By the way... since humanitarianism is your thing, you'll note that our efforts up to mid 2016 have liberated about 11 million people -- meaning they are displaced refugees. About 5 million people have fled the country. Another 6 million are "displaced" meaning they have lost their homes and jobs. We liberated anohter half million more permanently than that. They're just dead. This does not meet my definition of "humanitarian".
- http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php#_ga=1.130562893.399009084.1446221409
- http://www.unhcr.org/en-us/figures-at-a-glance.html
- http://www.unhcr.org/sy/29-internally-displaced-people.html
Here is what your humanitariasm has accomplished
Worldwide displacement hits all-time high as war and persecution increase
One in every 122 humans is now either a refugee, internally displaced, or seeking asylum.GENEVA, June 18 (UNHCR) – Wars, conflict and persecution have forced more people than at any other time since records began to flee their homes and seek refuge and safety elsewhere, according to a new report from the UN refugee agency.
… Since early 2011, the main reason for the acceleration has been the war in Syria, now the world’s single-largest driver of displacement.
UN Refugee Agency - Worldwide displacement hits all-time high as war and persecution increase
Syria & Sarin, rev. 2
All of which brings us to the present moment. So far, we’ve been lied into 3 wars and now Trump is working on number 4. The MO is identical.
- Sarin (or some nerve agent) attack with confusing timing and targets. Check. Just like last time there is no credible reason for Assad to have done this at this time. He was winning. Why on earth would he do the one thing guaranteed to call down a full fledged US attack?
- No National Intelligence Estimate performed. Check. Obama called his a "Government Assessment". Trump called his the "White House Intelligence Estimate". Both are made-up terms which indicate that the normal intelligence processes were not followed.
- Immediate Assertion of Blame. Check. In both cases the villain was identified instantly even without the benefit of an NIE. Kudos to Obama though. Kerry actually was setting the stage 6 months before the attack... drawing that bright red line.
- Precipitous Action. Check. Obama, to his credit, delayed the attack momentarily but in the end, we attacked. Trump just went ahead and attacked.
It is the EXACT same play book… down to the dotted I’s and crossed t’s. Once again, it may or may not have been Assad but there’s an awful lot of reasons to question the whole thing. This is, in theory, what the national intelligence estimate is supposed to answer. Sadly, Bush, Obama, and now Trump are not particularly interested in the truth.
Oh, and about that "White House Intelligence Assessment"... perhaps it isn't of the highest quality. Ted Postol, Professor Emeritus of Science, Technology, and National Security Policy Massachusetts Institute of Technology, had this to say:
As noted in the main body of my earlier report, the assumption in WHR that the site of the alleged sarin release had not been tampered with was totally unjustified and no competent intelligence analyst would haveagreed that this assumption was valid. The implication of this observation is clear – the WHR was notreviewed and released by any competent intelligence expert unless they were motivated by factors other thanconcerns about the accuracy of the report.
The WHR also makes claims about “communications intercepts” which supposedly provide high confidencethat the Syrian government was the source of the attack. There is no reason to believe that the veracity of thisclaim is any different from the now verified false claim that there was unambiguous evidence of a sarin releaseat the cited crater.
You'll note that Ted has a provably strong record of calling out the government on it's weapons lies... including Obama.
And you call me a “conspiracy theorist”. As I noted, if so I’m in good company. I personally don’t think engaging with actual reality and expecting to see actual facts before bombing a nation to rubble constitutes a “conspiracy theorist”. But hey, in today’s terms, anyone who disagrees with the government is a CT.
notes
- Thank you to Plato's Republic for this great addition of the UN weapons inspector reports and the astute observation that there is already a team of objective professionals investigating Syria and chemical weapons. Also, thanks for prodding me to put in the debunk of the "White House Intelligence Report".
- Thank you to Linda Wood for giving me proper refugee and death statistics.
- Thank you to gjohnsit for the horribly depressing story about open air slave markets.
Comments
All I know is, German and other European media I used to trust
and which used to be renowned for their independence and willingness to challenge official narratives, are now fully on board with everything they formerly questioned or opposed.
This past week the newspaper "Taz.de" even lampshaded this with a long essay harking back to their own early years, when it was not the Right but rather the the leftist and Green grassroots who talked about "the lying media" in cahoots with powerful cabals operating in the shadows.
I looked at that publication today
…from an earlier link you posted. I think I got it. The last time I sensed this type of out-of-control helplessness in the face of an onrushing tide of "wrong" — was in the months after 9/11. There was nothing that could stop the ugliest US war, Afghanistan. Everyone was completely on board to trigger this original mistake and primary disaster. No one would ask or answer the question: "What did we do that made those hijackers so mad?" Self reflection was a neurological void. But you could see minds being filled up with propaganda and absurd historical revisions. There was a willing subservience to any bold leader who would take action. The only question ever asked was, "Why haven't we bombed someone yet?"
Too many people are still not asking that question.
They think that we were minding our business and then one day out of the blue we were "attacked" on 9/11. I wonder how so many people can be so ignorant about what our country has done to other countries since its inception. Especially what we have been doing since 9/11. Many people still believe that Saddam had been involved with 9/11. Boy they did a great job spreading their propaganda after that day haven't they?
I read comments on my local right wing website about our military activities and some of the comments are mind boggling.
A lot of "our troops are fighting for our freedoms or to defend our country from the terrorists "
I saw one today that said "we have to fight them over there so that we don't have to fight them here"
People get upset when countries like France, London and other "civil countries" for lack of a better word are attacked by terrorists, yet when countries in the Middle East experience suicide bombings or other attacks that kills innocent Muslims there is no sympathy for those people.
The media will spend weeks on the terrorists attacks when they happen to white people and they rarely mention the attacks on the Muslim countries.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
Not only isn't there much sympathy for the suicide bombings
I find the mainstream psyche horrific.
One of the reasons we moved to Canada was to defund the war machine. I think I said to my wife, "If I can't stop them bombing the world, at least I can stop them from doing it with my money. I can at least be less complicit."
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
suicide bombings
What's even worse is that the worst lot of these bombings have been occurring in majority-Muslim countries with the largest Christian populations: Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon. So much for Western Christians making war "to protect their own".
Gak.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Same reply to terrorist attacks in Russia
In fact, in some news reports the "rebels" are replying to Russian aggression. See, one man's terrorist is another's liberation fighter.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39586814
Who knows? Maybe Assad did it?
So my stance on all of the above is pretty simple. As it sits, I don't believe the theories presented because there's no evidence to support them. Did those papers publish any evidence? If not, they're just more noise. If so... linkage PLEASE!
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Unless one is intellectually honest, in which case
…this doesn't work:
On Friday, the Trump administration decides that Assad can stay and the US will move on. So on Tuesday, Assad decides to gas his own people with illegal chemical weapons.
Oh, I'm well aware of how stupid this move was
But when I'm referring to "evidence" I'm trying to stick with hard data points. It seems self-evidently true that if I pointed out to a true believer that Assad would've had to be an utter idiot to do this then they'd just assert he was, in fact, an idiot. If, on the other hand, I stick to the hard evidence line I can also demand they do the same.
So far, we have conflicting and sometimes obviously faked reports from clearly biased sources. We also have entirely unsupported statements from the US about varies SIGINT intercepts and satellite intelligence. The webbing that's been used to string those reports together into a tale seems even more tenuous than the reports themselves.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
The investigation, since day one, is being conducted
…by two important organizations affiliated with the UN and the Security Council.
I wrote an essay about it the other day. We are still waiting for results. You can keep up with it here:
https://www.opcw.org
My essay explains the process:
https://caucus99percent.com/content/empire-strikes-back…-and-its-foul-ball
The US has no respectable investigation results. If they were not ashamed of their own bullshit, they would present their findings to the UN and to the American people.
By the way, there are rebel chemical attacks monthly in Syria. This one was publicized.
Excellent points and links.. thank you
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
White House evidence for Tomahawk attack = Fake News
I suggest you take a look at the White House report, as analyzed by Theodore A Postol, Professor Emeritus of Science, Technology, and National Security Policy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
This is also in the hands of the UN investigators.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/04/14/an-assessment-of-the-white-house-...
It's a technical read with photos at the end, annotated. Regardless of the UN findings, it is critically important to look at the concocted intelligence that the President was given that gave him the confidence to bomb another sovereign nation. The UN will almost certainly reject it as evidence to be considered.
This is a very serious matter.
I had already seen that one
You've prodded me to look into his background more closely and I think he's supportable as an expert.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
He is a Professor Emeritus at MIT
...in National Security Policy.
This is a better link to the article and includes the appendix:
http://www.moonofalabama.org/images5/Postol-Shaykhan.pdf
Dr Postol has since written an important addendum:
https://husseini.posthaven.com/ted-postol-updated-assessment-of-us-gov-c...
This is definitely worth the read. Here he has started asking questions. He also discusses the fact that the 2013 gas attack, which was also a false flag. At that time, Assad shed his chemical weapons stockpiles at the urging of Russia. Russia turned those weapons over to the US for disposal.
Dr. Postol discusses the 2013 false flag and the fact that the American people were never told the truth by then SoS, John Kerry. I bring this up only to remind you that this information will likely never be discussed in a US newspaper. I'm almost certain it will be in the UK, but you won't find a US source. It is also unlikely the UN findings will ever appear in the US.
The implications, however, are grave for the American people. The rest of the world will know the US President is a puppet and they will surely suspect that there has been a government coup in the US.
_________________________________________________
Theodore Postol is Professor of Science, Technology and National Security Policy in the Program in Science, Technology, and Society at MIT. He did his undergraduate work in physics and his graduate work in nuclear engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. After receiving his Ph.D., Dr. Postol joined the staff of Argonne National Laboratory, where he studied the microscopic dynamics and structure of liquids and disordered solids using neutron, x-ray and light scattering, along with computer molecular dynamics techniques. Subsequently he went to the Congressional Office of Technology Assessment to study methods of basing the MX Missile, and later worked as a scientific adviser to the Chief of Naval Operations. After leaving the Pentagon, Dr. Postol helped to build a program at Stanford University to train mid-career scientists to study developments in weapons technology of relevance to defense and arms control policy.
More: http://sts-program.mit.edu/people/emeriti-faculty/theodore-postol/
added to story, thanks.
I have a follow-up to the original story. My accuser just said he had no interest right now as to our geopolitical goals, he was only interested in the "quality of the decision making process".
I admit I was sort of baffled at that. They both ended up at the exact same set of lies as an answer. Who cares how diligently they thought about lying before they did it? But it's no more than I expected. That's what it means to be caught in the matrix.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
'Hard data points'
It is a conspiracy that uses hard data to make you believe that the measurements of their data can make anything true. Prove it they say but there are truths that cannot be measured by artificial intelligence. Lost in the data people forget that humans and nature are more then data points and forget the inalienable self evident truths that are not that hard to grasp if you use your human lying eyes and your own intelligence instead of your hand brain.
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
When a man comes on my TV and tells me....
Sure... it's a suckers game which is why I seldom play it
When that isn't the case I revert to "Nice theory. Show me your evidence." That's my stance on Russia-gate.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Fool Me Once, Shame on... Shame on You... Fool Me Twice...
We can't get fooled again...
Unless we're Americans.
Fool me 3 or 4 times and I'll vote for you again.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
If you've been fooled once, chances are you can be fooled again,
and again, and again, and again...
Here, let Hitler spell it out. He learned it from the Brits and Yanks - they were specialists at this. I suggest people read the entire chapter. You will see how these very same tactics are being applied here in America. Hitler was a brilliant man. Unfortunately, he was also bat shit crazy.
For propaganda to be massively effective today,
it needs to be accepted by not only the unthinking masses, but by a great many otherwise intelligent people as well. Why do so many people adopt the opinions of teevee talking heads as their own? The techniques of manufacturing consent have been refined since the days of Goebbels, and adapted to the age television and corporate consumerism.
Limited access to "unofficial" sources of information, coupled with constant repetition of selected narratives, can cloud the judgement of even very intelligent people. Also, the desire to "be a part of" some larger community creates a kind of social gravitational field that strongly discourages dissenting opinion. The DKos tendency to "group-think" being a prime example of this phenomenon, but it is also operative in the larger body politic.
native
Effective propaganda basically still works the same way today
What has changed is the effectiveness of the messenger. But the core precepts of effective propaganda remains the same. It is an appeal to the emotions, NOT to the intellect.
From the above quote:
Using media personalities as front men to "catapult the propaganda" is also very effective. Most are hired because they are visually pleasing and emotionally stimulating, not because they are especially intelligent. The people formulating the propaganda usually prefer to work behind the scenes but will come to the forefront if they can do so without having to face those with views that are contrary and factual. Much of the egregious propaganda can be countered with facts if allowed. You can see this happening in this very blog.
standard operating procedure
Actually, that's pretty much standard operating procedure for capitalist society:
source
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Every time I hear the words conspiracy theory
I always wonder what's really up and who's behind it? That's because there are too many instances of proven conspiracies in our government past. (I generally hesitate to use Business Insider for back up but this info can be found elsewhere:)
Our government is rarely run by honourable people although they are painted as if they were. I pretty much believe they lie to us more than they tell us the truth. I don't think Assad gassed his own people. He didn't do it the first time either.
I have seen our government do many bad things during my lifetime. It seems the crimes keep getting worse and the conspirators more brazen and ignorant. Thuggish is an appropriate phrase.
To show you're not alone in the CT department, I believe that it wasn't the Russians that released all the Clinton Creature's and John Podesta's emails. I believe Guccifer 2.0 who said it was Seth Rich. And I'm sure you know where I'm going with that train of thought.
EDIT: deleted word 'either'.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
I think that all the freakin' time
The whole notion that it's crazy to worry about conspiracies seems hopelessly naive. I readily admit that when you delve into the murky waters the signal to noise ratio isn't very good. But the truths you find make all the difference between living in the real world and living in the matrix.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
@SnappleBC
They always project their lunacy onto others, in order to defect blame, and of course they'll become concerned when people arrive at truth or something close enough to what they've actually done to attract attention and potential investigation leading to proof. Remember how long the mere notion of a group of secret '
elites' parasites running governments was labeled as ludicrous CT, long after proof had been established?It's way past time to make it stop by initiating independent investigations into such as 9/11; the mere fact of evidence being so thoroughly disposed of and a normal investigation having been immediately stymied breeds suspicion and you'd think that the innocent would want - heck, be very eager - to be cleared of this.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
You are right Amanda
Obama left office with an 80% approval rating even though he did the same things that Bush did and many more.
He ran on appearing to be anti war and constantly hit Hillary on her Iraq vote. People didn't listen to him saying that he was going to be focusing his war on Pakistan. And he kept that promise by using drones there and then expanded his drone program to 7 more countries. Many of those countries were in no way connected to 9/11 and the original AUMF.
He promised that he would end the Iraq war, yet he was trying to get the troops to be able to stay there after the SOFA "status of forces agreement" but the Iraqi government said that if they did they would be held responsible for their war crimes by the Iraqi government. Obama said no way. And look at how many troops are back in iraq over the Iraqi governments objections.
Seymour Hersh wrote an article about who used the sarin gas and where it came from. He showed that it was one of our moderate rebels who released it in 2013 and that it might have been given to them by the Turkey government.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
@Amanda Matthews
I've never understood people who spoke as though simply getting into public office somehow made people incapable of criminal acts... or those who excuse criminal acts merely because enacted by those in public office...
They should be held to a higher standing; anyone caught betraying the public trust must be held accountable, and by that higher standard, as the higher the level of responsibility accepted, the greater the obligation and responsibility.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
This is a really excellent overview
…expertly assembled. Thanks for composing it.
Since I turned my gaze to Syria today, your facts are appreciated. If you ask the typical American — who is paying for this entire clusterfuck whether they know it or not — if Syria is a democracy, they will likely say no. The idea that Syria is the home of women's rights and sufferage in the Middle East is unthinkable. Not one of them can tell you why Assad is an "evil monster" or give you one detail about "gassing his own people." I always think of Benghazi when I think of what we've done to Syria, which is another forbidden topic. In the end, Syria is no different that any other nation we destroy. It's about resources.
When you wrote: "So far, we’ve been lied into 3 wars and now Trump is working on number 4," it reminded me of several threads I've dropped lately. I'm beginning to suspect that Americans have been blatantly lied into every war they've fought. Perhaps that's true of all wars, to some extent. People must be lied into fighting them.
Critical thinkers can tell the difference between conspiracy theories and narrative analysis. I see none of the former in this essay. "Conspiracy theory" is a ridiculous, cognitively empty term, anyway, and I reject it.
Wow... thank you for that.
I sure hope that other people here will find ways to correct or improve it.
As a total aside, while I was typing that last line I thought about how valuable a repository of really solid such articles would be which got me to thinking about people's comments and editing the article until it was as near perfect as we could make it. That got me to wondering if C99 could use it's own wiki.
Damn it'd be handy to have a repository of stuff that's been critiqued and cross-checked. I always fear when I'm sending a letter like the one above to my brother or someone that they'll find some tiny (or not so tiny) thing I got wrong and it'll serve to invalidate my entire position.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Wonderful job, Snaple
You put together great points to counter anyone who says that what we believe is conspiracy theories. Either they have drunk the propaganda kool aid and believe what they have been told or they are very ignorant of their facts.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
Thank you
The evidence simply isn't there at this point. It may be in the future but it's not right now.
Further, my family would have me simply trust the government -- until the government was Trump that is. My rebuttal to that is that a vote for war is a vote to slaughter tens or hundreds of thousands of people. It is my moral and ethical obligation to say "no" until I'm convinced otherwise.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
"until the government was Trump" as if different
As I was asking the corner store grocery clerk why the price jumps, (he is from Pakistan so I am trying to be on topic too, his boss owner Tesla driver is from India, they converse in Hindi, I think), he informed me that Trump had dropped the mother of all bombs. Because he is a "screen reader" always connected, I heard of it immediately from him and asked where, etc.. His remarks were all "raising taxes at home, spending billions on bombs, why? Trump is Obama." I don't know his politics, it is whatever the screen says probably, just like me and my screens. I think I heard here at C99 "Trump is Clinton", sounds same same to me. Thanks.
Peace & Love
US drone strikes on one's homeland . . .
. . . have a seriously clarifying effect on one's mind.
No Democrat koolade will ever convince a Pakistani that Donald Trump is a bigger war criminal than the double-tappin' Nobel Peace Prize winner.
One of these things is not like the other. Oh wait
wiki:
yes it is, down there in bold inside the quote from theDeep state is poking every nuclear hornet's nest it can find, gee you wonder why? I don't. Gives new meaning to today's Open Thread song. Let's not and say we did.
Peace & Love
Trump IS Clinton.
From me, among others. I've been saying that all the way back into the 2016 Democratic Primaries.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
I suspect that when someone says, A is like B
On the topic of war he appears to be "like Obama" but moreso. Of course, so was Hillary. They are all like Bush. So we see consistent foreign policies across both parties and seemingly very different people. This is, of course, what is meant by the phrase "deep state".
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
I'll give you a CT
the only way we can continue to do this over there, is the fact(ct)
they have already done it here.
Proof being on the trump tommie attack, out 47 media outlets, 39 gave
it the 2 thumbs up, 8 were ambiguous and only one gave it a thumbs down.
They all hail the new mad bomber, the children be damned.
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
Nice summary,
but I wish you wouldn't conflate the left with neoliberals.
dfarrah
Good point
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
It isn't the left:
The self-styled "liberals" doing that have convinced themselves that they have a liberal view on one or two issues, usually racism and womens' rights. Even if true, that doesn't make them liberals, let alone the left. Overall and in most matters, they are conservatives. The true believers at DK, for example, are by and large conservadems.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I'm not sure to what extent
the time-honored categories of Left and Right are meaningful in today's political landscape. We might do better to begin thinking in other terms.
native
Amen Native
This simply isn't true:
"that none of this is about ideology, values or direction"
I have values, and I want policies to go in that direction. Other people have values, and they want policies to go in that direction.
There might be some conflation between people who accept politicians who go against their (the person's) values because of party or group identification and those who don't accept politicians who go against their (the person's) values, regardless of party or group identification.
dfarrah
That seems fair
I know talking to my family... all having OD'd on the blue kool-aid... that they have the generally same desired end outcomes as I do. The significant difference is that I believe in both science and common sense so I believe we are facing systemic corruption and are being ruled by a plutocracy. They believe the fairy tale despite all evidence to the contrary.
At the "value" level we don't disagree. We disagree on fundamental reality. That's exactly why I refer to my own process of wising up as "waking up from the matrix". The fact that they are unaware, however, doesn't change the fact that they are willing to blindly commit atrocities without even a moment's thought. Not a one of them has even a remote clue what's going on in the Mideast and none of them care.
At the political class level they have values too. What they value is money.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Double post gremlin strikes again
The alt-right and alt-left seem to be evolving
along the lines of the neo-liberal and neo-conservative descriptors. What we need is a new two dimensional Nolan Chart to reflect these values. Even possibly a three dimensional chart?
The biggest problem is that the American one-dimensional, straight line, left/right political party system no longer serves to accommodate the electorate; especially as they are not only joined at the hip, but also at the groin. You get screwed the same way no matter the color.
I agree with you personally
This was written, however, as a specific response to a Democrat I was talking to. That person does think in terms of left/right and before I can get him to start looking at the more serious problems I need him to see that there are a lot of similarities between his "good guys" and "bad guys". In truth, I sincerely doubt I'll make any impression at all. Just like in the freakin' movie... "Nobody can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself." He's not ready.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
I think your arguments were excellent.
I also think that the controversy over Syria has little to do with the categories of Left and Right.
native
You never know
They are invested in an American capitalistic mythology that has never existed. You cannot preach to or will never convince people of their folly in placing their faith in the only reality they know or want to know. All the links with hard data in the world wide web will not convince those of us plugged into the matrix. If they unplug how would they be able to continue on with living a life so overwhelmingly depressing. Why not present them instead with overriding humanistic universal arguments that have nothing to do with our current politics?
Shah is currently reading The People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. It is misplaced outrage and energy to hang this on either side as we all share an common enemy of the people at this point and it is the USA! USA! USA!. I understand as I have many friends and relatives who are not willing to let go of the great divides they harbor. Easier to blame the other then looking in the mirror at what you have become out of fear and loathing carefully taught.
I agree completely
Quite some time ago a person much wiser than me gave me advice about things like this. She likened it to tossing seeds in the soil and then just walking on. Some of those seeds will never grow. Some will grow later than others. But the one thing you know for a fact is that sooner or later some of those seeds will take root. Accordingly I don't really see myself as trying to convince anyone. I'm just tossing ideas out there. They'll take root if and when the conditions are right.
For that matter my own awakening was entirely a random freak occurrence. There I was being a good little geek reading some geek blog. The writer was going into the Apple store to see some new product and he had to "get through some occupy guys". That phrase made no sense to me. What the hell is an "occupy guy"? That's where I began to learn about wealth inequality and systemic corruption. Then came the GFC and I watched as Obama paid off the crooks and the rest of us suffered. It was a pretty clear demonstration of just how much in control the plutocrats are. They freakin' crashed the global economy then waved their hands and said, "These are not the banksters you are looking for" and the authorities went away. They are in absolute control.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
@native
How about a scale running from humane to reasonable in one category versus another beginning at the merely appallingly selfish (take half my cheque for the wealthiest and bombs for invasions and I'll ignore it, but not a fraction of cent of my tax money, or of the super-rich should go to aid the sick, halt or lame, elderly, widow or orphan!) to the psychopathic range (what's mine is mine, what's yours is mine, and I applaud vulnerable Poors suffering and dying of want and curable ills)? The seemingly almost extinct Conservative who really wants to conserve can form the centre. That seems to be what's actually covered.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Thank you for this
strongly stated response to the dismissal of questioning of our questionable authorities.
The statistics on deaths and refugees is different from what you've said here, though.
Half a million is the death statistic in the war in Syria. Five million is the refugee and displaced persons statistic from Syria alone. Within Syria, another 6 million are displaced, meaning, they have lost their homes and livelihoods. Sixty million is the refugee and displaced persons statistic worldwide.
Thank you so much for the updated stats
My brain was furrowing over that number but honestly I was too lazy to backtrack it. I'm thinking it might be refugees from Libya but I'll go dig that out and add in the additional information from you.
And you're welcome. The funny thing is that I make no bones about it. I'm no dove... not in my personal life and not in foreign policy. Show me an actual aggressor and my dove credentials go out the window in a heart beat. I'm just not sure I've seen an actual aggressor in my 53 years on the planet.
But I am also no dove when it comes to my opinions of the folks who systemically lied to me and the corresponding blood which is on my hands because of it. I've done what I can to stop that but moving abroad but I'm pissed as hell at being duped into killing people. In that sense, I suspect the person who accused me in this story will eventually wake up himself and I suspect he'll also be pretty embarrassed and angry.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Secret combat missions
Destabilizing countries world wide:
There are powerful nations that are not spreading despair, desperation, and death throughout the world just because they are very, very scared after 9/11. These nations did not send a battle group racing across an ocean to vaporize North Korea just because they are uncontrollably frightened. These other powerful nations are well aware that US foreign policy created North Korea.
Eventually, these nations must act to stop this deeply insane superpower that threatens the world.