But I don't want to be a Dad, costs too much, too much hassle

I ran across this video the other day. It (and a comment posted in another essay) brought back to the forefront of my mind the issue of forced fatherhood.

Women have a right to reject the responsibilities of parenthood by having an abortion. Men do not have a right to reject those parental responsibilities.

In this grand remaking of society pushed by feminism how shall we address this inequity?

Should a man not be able to say, if you want it, you pay for it. I'm not interested in being a parent.
Should men not have a right to walk away for those responsibilities even if married at the time?
A women can have an abortion against the wishes of her spouse in marriage.
Some here have advocated for unlimited abortion on demand at any time during pregnancy. Should not a man be able to walk away from unwanted parenthood at any time in the same manner? Married or not?

I'm very curious what the people here think about this. Ideas presented here have already led me to adjust my position on some things. Maybe you can help me to see this issue more fully.

I think men should be able to end those responsibilities at whim before birth. That seems fair to me. (well, not really sure I agree with that position but I want to argue the point for clarity).

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ9UEr87DWo width:420 height:315]
* I love how she ends this (10:33ish onward)

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@Tao Joe
I figure there's got to be a way that's fair enough for everyone.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

@dennis1958 state your position and defend it with something other than ad hominem attacks and the belittling of all women as nothing more than people who like to force responsibility on men. All you seem to do here is attack and then when called on that, you pull out the "I'm just trying to discuss it" and "gee, why are women so hostile to me when I act like a sanctimonious prick?" You could have discussed this issue with a LOT fewer little code words and self pity and probably made a good discussion out of it, but instead you've chosen to merely come off as a big know it all who's seen it all and done it all and by God, you're always right about it too!

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Tao Joe's picture

@dennis1958 It is a simple issue made more complicated than it should.......and for what?

If one is old enough to Tango, one is old enough to learn about self-control and self-respect for oneself or others.

In other words, if one wishes to Tango, one must also know about taken the responsibilities that go with it - that's what make Tango so special!

Just saying ...

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TheOtherMaven's picture

You may as well turn the waterworks off, nobody's listening and you aren't going to change any minds - except about you.

The more you whine and wail about wanting everything your way, the more you sound like a selfish crybaby. Real Grownups accept the facts that actions have consequences, that there are limitations, and that there are workable alternatives.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

shaharazade's picture

'the grand remaking of society pushed by feminism'. Must be hard for a had core misogynist to watch society being remade by feminist's. If ever a society needed remaking it's this one. As a society all of us are losing rights both human and civil we seem to be regressing rather then progressing. You don't want to have a baby? Get a vasectomy or don't have unprotected sex. You poor man your such a victim due to the militant feminist's.

Exactly how does women having control over their reproduction invalidate your right's or threaten your equality? I can't even figure out what your upset about other then feminism at large remaking society. Fat chance with sexist pigs like you whining and whinging about your convoluted violated 'rights' being 'pushed' by women. Enough! This is an offensive anti-feminism essay that reveals your pathetic fear of losing power due to women having power over their own wombs, bodies and minds. Female whims my ass.

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@shaharazade I'd say.
But the essay is about male reproductive rights, men's rights to equally not be a parent and incur all the associated costs and stuff that goes with it.
How do we make it fair and how will we make it work.
thanks for your input.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

CS in AZ's picture

@dennis1958

What would make it equitable?

Here's the thing - until and unless we get to the day when men can get pregnant and carry a pregnancy to term inside their own bodies, and give birth to it, this discussion is moot. Nature is not equitable about this. Sorry.

I agree with the right of all people to choose not to reproduce. If a man knows that he doesn't want to be a father, ever (again), then he should get a vasectomy, end of problem. If he doesn't want to be a father now, but maybe someday in the future, then he should take precautions in any sexual encounter to avoid pregnancy. Or as my husband likes to say whenever anyone is "accidentally" pregnant - they know what causes that nowadays.

My brother's first wife trapped him into marriage at age 18 because she was pregnant. Then they proceeded to have a total of four kids, because she kept lying to him about being on the pill. When the fourth one happened, and he was whining to me about her lying to him, I told him to go get snipped and quit making this all her responsibility, because she clearly either can't or doesn't want to avoid getting pregnant. Duh! He did and thank god. After they divorced she had at least three or four other babies with other fathers. this girl just loved being pregnant and having kids apparently. (***shudder***) but the point is, my brother was trying to play victim, which was bullshit!

Men know that they are potentially creating a pregnancy every time they have sex (with a woman of childbearing age). That is where your choice is. If you choose to take that risk, along with a woman who is or might be also taking those risks, then you both have responsibilities to deal with the consequences.

When an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy occurs, it's a problem, and the one with this problem growing inside her body is stuck with it -- there is no walking away. Men can, and often do, just bolt. At most they might be expected to provide some financial support. And yet even that much is often an ongoing battle that the abandoned single mother can't afford to bother with.

As I mentioned above, I am the product of an unwanted pregnancy, with teenage, irresponsible parents. If abortion had been available and legal in 1958, I might very well have never been born. If my parents had used birth control, I wouldn't be here. Do you think that makes me against abortion or birth control? No, it doesn't. Growing up being an unwanted burden to your mother and family isn't fun. I have childhood memories of both apologizing for being alive, and defiantly reminding them that "I didn't ask to be born!"

People who are too selfish to take care of their children with love and nurturing and respect and concern for their well-being shouldn't be parents. Avoiding unwanted pregnancy is the responsibility of both. Dealing with the consequences should be to. Using kids as pawns in emotional games between irresponsible parents is wrong. If you make a baby, it's time to grow up. (Hence why I had a tubal ligation as soon as I could talk a doctor into doing one, at age 30, and religiously took the pill until I could get the the TL. So I still get to put me first, because I never had a child. Once you do, treating them like they are burdensome or as pawns in your divorce games is no longer an option.

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@CS in AZ
What do you think of that?

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

CS in AZ's picture

@dennis1958

Is first, no such plan would ever be enacted into law in this country.

And two, it misses the mark right off the bat, with this:

1. Jane gets pregnant because she did not responsibly protect her far more powerful reproductive organs. Or, perhaps it was an accident.

Birth control is not the woman's sole responsibility. This "plan" completely absolves men of all choice and responsibility for getting pregnant. I disagree. Nothing has changed from what I wrote in my original comment.

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shaharazade's picture

@dennis1958 I just read your other essay and some of your comments regarding 'feminism' and to me your a freaking troll. No feminist's are not wrecking the left or dangerously remaking our society. How would you know as you have no idea what equal rights mean and apparently would not recognize the left if it bit you which I hope it does. You sound like some RW asshole cry baby. Why should anyone give a fuck about showing a misogynist pig 'the light'. As a female your offensive as hell whether or not I self identify as a feminist.

Why would you come here and spew this nasty woman hating garbage? If I have given you some anti-feminist talking points your the one who's an abuser. Just shut up! I've had better 'discussions' regarding women's rights with sexist men who at least did not play the victim. Men's rights do not trump women's rights, separate but equal? where have I heard this specious argument. Maybe instead of giving women a hard time under the guise of men's rights you should advocate for all of our right's and a society that values equality for all humans.

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@dennis1958 1. Don't have sex.

2. Don't have unprotected sex.

And, explain to partners that you don't want to bring children into the world. You are not alone in that. Lots of people feel the same way. If she wants kids, she can find a new boyfriend who would welcome parenthood.

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Mary Bennett

mimi's picture

@shaharazade @shaharazade @shaharazade

wow, last time you (the author dennis 1958) posted a longish essay I formulated a longish comment. I didn't finish, it was too difficult to tell the whole story, but now I am so pissed at dennis' second essay, that I post half of my old comment.

so I dare to comment to all of what has been said by various commentators and the author.

I am female, politically oriented as a leftist social democrat since I became an adult with voting rights in Germany back then at age 21 for that country. That was in the late sixties. So, to me equal rights for women were always considered a part of the egualitarian intentions of socialist democrats and I felt it was not necessary to point specifically to women's rights as a "feminist' as long as there were not really different laws written on paper for women vs men. Of course I could see that culturally and socially there were areas in professional lives that were closed to women due to cultural traditions. Because of that I would never argue against women who made it their political mission to 'fight for women's rights'. That is my background from Germany, being now a year and half short of 70 years old.

I happened to get in close contact with women (and men) from cultures that any person of my background (caucasian, German, my age group) would consider as women 'deprived of women's rights'. My mother in law had born 14 children, she never had access to birth contol (she was born probably in the early 1910 time frame (it was not known, but guessed, born in a francophone part of a former French colony in Africa). 7 of her children survived. She was decorated as a mother by the first President of her country after the colony became independent. (Hitler did the same charme offensive to women in the Third Reich. Who knows how many women fell for that as well.) And my mother in law was proud of it. It was also said that her husband, probably born in the 1900, had her as his only wife in a cultural environment where polygamy was the norm (without it being conditioned through Islam), but through local traditions. Both were exposed to American and European missionaries with competing churches in their village they grew up in. Well, unless you can prove the opposite you take that monogamy claim at 'face value' and the rest is speculation (and in my mind also nobody's business).

All my mother in laws daughters, my sister-in-laws, had been married in nonogame relationsships and had given birth to zero to 12 children, average number of children 6. None of them complained about the number of children they had given birth to. They were poor and didn't have much of a support in their husbands financially. They muddled through the best they could. It was not clear to me in how far they had access to birth control pills and could have managed the number of pregnancies they got into against the will of their husbands. I saw birth control pills in their little houses bedrooms, but that's it. I could not figure out if they ever regretted to have their children. It didn't seem that way. Some of them later immigrated to Europe and the US, with some reducing the number of pregancies to "Western acceptable numbers", like two or three children. The grandchildren (like in-law nieces I guess to me) have produced 10 children in France and raised them. When I asked another niece, how she could manage raising so many kids and if her husband was kind of rich, that niece seemed to be a little 'offended' by the question. There was no way one could have challenged the women's decision to have children and raise them, no matter what. How you deal with the support of the father or not, is nobody's business. That's why I am a proponent, politically, that folks, like Hillary, don't poke into women's right issues in cultures she doesn't belong to. She has no business in it. The women can decide for themselves what kind of rights they want to have at any specific moment and not been manipulated by 'women' foreign to their society and culture.

Comparing their situations to my own, I had clearly unconditional access to birth control (meaning no poverty would have prevented me to get access to birth control pills with our German healthcare system back in the late sixties). When I got pregnant, though it was not specifically intended, I felt that it was my own responsibility to have gotten pregnant, meaning that my then later husband didn't care about his own responsibility for the pregnancy and relied on me to "not have to take the responsibility" for the pregnancy he helped to create. I guess for men getting used to women being capable to manage their pregnancies, it is seducing to them and leads them to not care about their own 'managerial options' of causing a pregnancy or not. Then when it happens and the woman complains, they (the men)feel either cheated or trapped. How the woman decides after realizing she had gotten pregnant without planning it, is a science in itself. An I say, no man will ever understand it. Therefore, leave the women in peace and let 'em' do what they feel is right. If you feel the woman has the right to fight against the father for child support or if you feel 'tricked', it is not you who has decide over it. The child has its own rights for support from both parents, if they parents want it or not. Period.

I could tell the story to the end, but I won't. I need too much space.

The cruical part is that women have access to birth control pills unconditionally. Which American women, I believe, DON'T have. That's the fuck of your health care system an some deranged men, who think they can enforce their own laws on women. But ...

... I have a perfect solutions to all these men and women not being capapble to stop blaming the other for the pregancy that occurred and fighting of who should take what kind of responsibility for how much and what.

Simple. You make the babies together. You take care of the babies together. Oh, you don't like that? I knew it. Darn. I forgot. Therefore ...

...as this seems to be easier said than done, why don't you guys and gals, each time you feel like having sex together, get out paper and pencil and write up an agreement saying: "Yes, if out of the sex to happen in the next minutes a pregnancy results, I declare that I will be responsible to raise and care for the child being send out to the world this way, til they are adults. Don't forget the stamp of the public notary. I guarantee you, no unwanted pregnancies will happen (and no sex, at least not satisfying one, as well). And of story. Problem solved.

Easy peasy, Dennis 1958.

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shaharazade's picture

@mimi This poster has some kind of bee in his bonnet or manly hat about feminism which go beyond the financial legal issues of child support. He seems to feel that women use I want a baby to play Moma so finance me to entrap men either in marriage or as a meal ticket. It's like he wants to piss off women and denigrate feminism. Now me I have trouble with the current feminist's who seem to feel that breaking corporate glass ceilings and being a bad ass killer of women and children is somehow liberating. I know of no woman who on a whim decides that she wants a baby so I'll stick it to the man who got me pregnant.

I have had an abortion and believe me it is was not an easy decision or a whim. If I had of decided to carry my pregnancy with or with out a husband it would not be based on a whim because I wanted a baby. Men and women both have to deal with bringing children into this world. Maybe this asshole should stop blaming feminists and women who do make less money and have to deal with religious nuts and men who think they are victims of feminists.

How about he work to have sex education implemented in schools for pre-teens and teenagers, male and female, so they have a grasp on their reproductive urges, how nature works, and the consequences of getting pregnant. Me I rushed out of my families house and reproduced at a early age with a right sexist pig and paid dearly for my ignorance. So did my two kids.

It worked out okay in the end as my children somehow managed to take the best and discard the madness from both me and their father. I still feel the pain of guilt for abandoning a intolerable marriage in which this society with it's pig justice decided that my irresponsible hippie life style rendered me unfit as a mother. Not to mention that my father in law was a powerful city chief of police who finagled the law to favor his bully sexist abusive son. My kids god bless them did not turn out like their dad and have a good grasp of what went down. My resistance to sexist pig justice was not in vain. They respect women and do not hold their rights as men above feminist's or women like me. They both married strong women and are not victims of feminists (women) and do not victimize their wives.

Women, now and throughout history, all have had to deal with societal control by men with power to restrict their rights be they reproductive or being able to earn a decent living if they choose not to marry or reproduce 'irresponsibly'. Look at what we as women have had to overcome. So I'm done ranting but this is not what I want to have to read here on caucus 99%.

Difference of opinion is fine but this nastiness is nothing I want to have to even consider as a woman and a human being. Like Shah said walk away if you can't or refuse to handle the fact that you too as a man created life. To call this a slight to men's rights is a mockery of all human rights. sorry to be so vehement about this but as a woman 'feminist' this reeks of something foul that goes beyond the phony victimization of poor abused men whose rights are endangered by pushy conniving women.

How dare women get pregnant and ensnare men in their abusive traps. Freaking insult to injury as women are not the victimizer's but human beings who bear life and are expected to bow down to the holy sperm that men refuse to face the consequences spewing their sperm. Oh right why should men be tasked with troublesome women who they impregnated in or out of marriage. Too hard for men to take control of their sex lives responsibly so blame it on the 'feminist' who more often then not deal with the consequences of male rights.

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@shaharazade great ass comment.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

mimi's picture

@shaharazade
I too would have loved to not read through the thread's discussion and the essay itself. But I like to add some here, reading your comment.

I guess I can say I was in a way 'lucky'. My parents, I believe, learned through wwII, that they needed each other more than they might have ever known, when they married in 1939. When my father came back from Russian POW camp incarceration in 1947, he was disabled, had lost his right arm and weighted 90 pounds as a tall man of 182 cm. My mother had been shuffled between Berlin and Liegnitz (a town now in Poland), fleeing the bombs (American ones) and Russian troops coming in from the East. When finally the nightmare was over, I think, my parents had more important things to master than fighting each other over child support.

None of my parents left the other alone, both stuck it out together, they both never neglected or abused their children. I was lucky, though came to realize that only much later in life, having read and heard about other women's experiences. Many German couples in the same situation after wwII didn't make it. They walked out on each other, not recognizing their partner's traumatic changes that had occurred to both of them while being separated during war times. They were not able to deal with each other anymore.

My father was a conservative, but not extreme or religiously motivated, my mother was a liberal, but other than voting for them back in the days, she never talked much politics with my father or us. She hinted that she didn't trust clergy (must have witnessed atrocities by them, I guess). My father was more of an entrepreneur.

He decided, when I was nineteen, that the man I ran into (accidentically) was not the right one and my family for five long years put a lot of pressure, arm twisting and emotional manipulation on me, saying "leave da man". Ok, I refused and was disowned and left my parents house and put myself through six long years of studies in a field that I never really intended to study. To pull myself through, I worked as waitress and as a nursing aide in night-shifts at a hospital,that cared for elderly, male cancer patients. I was only 20 years old. I learned then that I wouldn't have been such a good medical doctor, I orginally wanted to become. I was not strong enough. The patients could have made me agree to give them more painkillers than their weakened bodies could handle. That was illegal. I was close to commit those 'crimes'. Very hard to refuse a man in pain some painkillers.

So, I lived for five long years a 'couple-style' life with 'the man, I was not supposed to be with'. I never had any difficulties to be taken care of by gynocologists and got anti-birth control pills from the very beginning. No problem at all. Well, what can I say, I guess I must have left the pills in the wrong handbag or something like it and apparently have missed to take them for one or two days, being in that relationship for five years and always dead tired from too much work. I couldn't recapitulate this later on. I didn't intend to get pregnant. I never thought about having a child. But somehow after six weeks it occurred to me that I might be pregnant. My later mother-in-law lived with us back then. I remember til today the day I took the pregnancy test. The strip way laying on the window sill of our tiny student studio and bingo, the color turned and showed a positive result.

Oh, oh, wow, what?

I only remember that my first thought was, that's kinda exiting. Then I calculated back in my mind if I made enough money to pull it through on my own. At that time I had an assistant tutoring position at the university and earned the magnificent sum of around 400 dollars in today's world per month. It was a secure tiny job. I thought that's doable, smiled and went on carrying the pregnancy to term. Then I started to pray that it would be a girl and not a boy. Because you know that 'female mutts' (sorry) are mostly that pretty that their discrimination is less than 'male mutts'. (Gosh, I really don't know which English word to use for a mixed-race black-white child).

Well, 'the man' was a little silent, the 'mother-in-law' smiled, then I remember him making a shy comment about thinking possibly to get an abortion, very carefully and kindly formulated. I see the szene in front of me til today. It was at the stairs to an underground metro station in Berlin, I was standing a couple of steps up from him and looked down on him, when he stumbled his question with some insecure eyes and smile. I don't know what happened to me, but I just spat him in the face and said nothing. I have no idea where those emotions in me came from. But that was the end of it. No further discussions.

Of course, after five years of manipulation by my family to 'leave da man', I now was supposed to 'marry da man', subito, immediately. I thought that somehow my family had a 'logic' problem. I had no wish to marry 'the man'. Why? Ok, several reasons, but one is worth mentioning here.

I became aware of the fact that there ARE women, who on purpose want to get pregnant and are going that far to start a competition for 'the man' using a pregnancy and baby as a 'tool'. So, this is one issue I differ with you. There are also women, who don't mind to get pregnant, because they count on a government's generous child support, if they are poor enough. I really didn't believe that as well for most of my life, but have now seen this being admitted by women and seen it happening. Probably you haven't had the exposure to enough 'poverty'? But it exists (rarely, though, most women are not that 'challenged'.)

Btw, eight years later we married into an unhappy marriage. We tried. One day I couldn't do it any longer and walked away. Til today I don't understand if that was a good decision or not. It's not all that straight forward and all the unintended consequences you can't know in advance, nor is it easy to decide if the consequences were bad or not. At least if you are honest, you have to admit, that we are mostly clueless and tell ourselves the most intrigueing arguments of why this and not that etc... Smile

You know what I really think about the issue? I think most men and women don't know if they want a child or not. Those, who know, are mostly the ones, who try to have one and have difficulties to get one. That's also a tough issue. Those who have not THAT issue, basically don't really decide to have a child. Ok, of course, if you are in love and are committed you say, of course I love to carry your child and 'the man' says, of course I take care of you and the child. Blah, blah, shmoozy talk. But are they honest? I would say, aside from money issues, it's the most lied about subject area, that is not talked about honestly, between men and women.

Thank God, Mr. Up on High, doesn't care for our lies. He knows how to trick us out, men and women. In the end I think that's good. Smile

Oh, and one more thing, a neighbor elderly woman of mine back in the US, who lived alone, divorced with her elderly son, just said to me: "You know, we never know how the kids turn out". Thinking about that, I thought, she might have been right.

Oh gosh, I feel so old by now. Wink

Have a good day, Shaz.

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Tao Joe's picture

It is a simple issue made more complicated than it should.......and for what?

If one is old enough to Tango, one is old enough to learn about self-control and self-respect for oneself or others.

In other words, if one wishes to Tango, one must also know about taken the responsibilities that go with it - that's what make Tango so special!

Just saying ...

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Strife Delivery's picture

I'm kind of surprised by the vitriol for this topic. Far too many people are using comments against men that have been used against women.

It's just disgusting.

Guess what folks, various forms of birth control fail. Telling women to put a pill between their leg, or not have sex, for men to wear condoms, or women to get on the pill, such much useless posturing here.

Men and women should practice safe sex. But they do fail. So what is the next step after that?

The diarist has a point and far too many people have just went on a tirade against him.

If a man wants a child, but she doesn't, nothing he can do about it (and that makes sense, her body).
However, if a man doesn't want a child, but she does, he is now forced into parenthood. He doesn't have that option to choose, she chose for him. For many here to not get that is just kind of stunning actually. In the end, yes, there should be a means for men to be able to sever ties.

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@Strife Delivery
brought a tear to my eye these last few days.
I am genuinely and deeply grateful that you dared to enter this ... madness.
thank you

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Strife Delivery's picture

@dennis1958 My own parents divorced when I was very young. He still wanted to be in the picture and so saw him on the weekends. He paid child support.

If a parent wants a role in parenting, including making decisions about said child's future, then that also comes with financial support. To me this makes sense.

If a man or woman doesn't want to be a parent after pregnancy occurs, there should be various options.

If in a hypothetical scenario, a woman doesn't want to be a parent (or simply just doesn't want to carry the fetus to term) she can have an abortion. If she is against the idea of abortion for whatever reason (or cannot get an abortion for XYZ reason), she can then give up her child for adoption (if she is on her own). However, if the father is willing to take the child if she doesn't want said child, then she should also be able to sign away her parental responsibilities to him and be able to walk away (including financial responsibilities). This all makes sense to me, and also should be applicable to men. The only counter arguments I've seen here is the same tired rightwing logic of "don't have sex" and "tough luck get over it".

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@Strife Delivery
I've held them and comforted them best I could.
I can't turn a blind eye. I just can't
Women can have everything they want as far as I'm concerned. Lets just be fair about it.
It's soooo much to ask. Apparently.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

shaharazade's picture

@dennis1958 'turn off the water works they just don't move me no more.' What a cheap trick and manipulating phony issue. Face it you don't like feminist's of feminism or apparently women. Don't drown in your own or other manly victims of feminism's crocodile tears. You have obliterated any legitimate discussion in this thread regarding men's rights, women right's, and even children's rights. Funny thing about right's is that nobody's rights obliterate or diminish anyone else's. Our society could use equality that does not divide rights up according to race gender or class. Maybe if there were less men like you women would not have to become feminist's and have to fight for equal pay and control of their own bodies.

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Centaurea's picture

@dennis1958

I've seen men weep
I've held them and comforted them best I could.
I can't turn a blind eye. I just can't
Women can have everything they want as far as I'm concerned. Lets just be fair about it.
It's soooo much to ask. Apparently.

I've seen less angst and drama at a performance of La bohème.

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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

@Centaurea

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@dennis1958

Yeah, women have everything they want!!/s

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@Iogrey
Who said women have everything they want? I didn't.
I said women can everything they want as far as I care, let's just be fair about it.
'Fair' is a male construct designed to oppress women by way of the patriarchy?

I actually have a headache and I NEVER get headaches.

What have we become?

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Pluto's Republic's picture

@dennis1958

And, of course, I believe that both their rights should be expanded so that they can live fulfilling lives. I also support the rights of children (as defined and expanded by the UN). The basic income for all human beings is hurtling toward reality, and the child will receive that income from birth, as well, which will in turn, further expand the rights of his parents and the rest of his society.

Thus, in light of expanded rights for all, I support your proposal, Dennis.

I once wrote an online essay entitled, "Should Men Have an Equal Right to an Abortion?" I used two hypothetical 18 year olds as an example, as I did much further up in this train wreck. The kids hardly knew each other and were on the cusp of adulthood. The boy was on his way to a scholarship education that he had worked very hard to achieve. The girl was not as mature, but she was even more talented than he was. She still had her Barbie dolls on a shelf in her bedroom.

The 6-point proposal I wrote earlier, designed to solve this problem pregnancy fairly while expanding the life choices for both the boy and the girl, was included in that long-ago essay.

To my surprise, very few Readers could comprehend the scenario that I wrote. Almost everyone that commented had changed the facts in bizarre ways to match their deepest resentments and paranoia. The rest just sat there and watched — like they are doing today — too scared to say one word. It was pure chaos and hysteria.

"She's being forced to have an abortion!"

Wrong. She is not.

"She's being forced to have a child!"

Nope. That's her choice.

"You want the state to interfere more into our reproductive iives."

No I don't. The state doesn't get to decide. The girl does. The state doesn't get to hound that boy for support. The boy already chose and gave the girl the power to decide for herself. The state is just a recording notary.

"Do you not see what are very real physical differences in male and female bodies during procreation?"

Sure do. That was the entire point. The power lies with the woman. She gets to choose.

::

The bottom-line was the rabbid hatred for the imaginary boy, the palpable need to punish him. The red anger toward him was boiling over. I had never seen anything like it on the Internet. It was a real eye-opener.

Readers were furious that men would have equal rights, which has been denied to them since the pill and legal abortion had leveled the playing field. They wanted this 18 year old boy to give up college and work a shit job for the rest of his life to pay for a kid he didn't want. They wanted to punish him with a diminished life and the death of his dreams.

::

"You think they are going to force abortion on a woman who does not want it?"

Again. The woman has all the power. No one can force anything on her. It's her choice.

"He's just going to walk away like men always do and stick her with the kid!"

Nobody is going to stick her with a kid. And nobody is going to steal that boy's bright future. They can both live whatever lives they want to.

"Why not just make abortion illegal if that's what you want?"

What?

"You want to see the kid used as a pawn in their relationship!"

If there is a child, I would want her to live a wonderful and happy life with two loving parents and the means to achieve her dreams, whatever they may be.

::

My gender has nothing to do with equal justice for all. Real justice is blind and fair to all parties.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

@Pluto's Republic
It's the attacks on other posters of good will, willing to share their thoughts in a logical, reasoned manner that really bothers me.
To all of you I apologize. I did not anticipate this degree of ... I don't even know what words to use to describe this.

I'm sad and feel a lose of hope but I will NOT cry
I'm keeping my male tears away from those ....uh..... who wish to bathe in them.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

@Strife Delivery
he doesn't have a choice.

because biology doesn't give a fuck about human concepts of justice, responsibility, and accountability.

there are unfairnesses in life that simply cannot be mitigated. this is one of them. that doesn't mean that the diarists' reviled feminists are correct about every complaint.

my value system is pretty straightforward: if you're going to fuck women, be a man about it. don't go around crying about how feminists are all WATBs and you want to be one too.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Strife Delivery's picture

@UntimelyRippd Um no.

he doesn't have a choice.

because biology doesn't give a fuck about human concepts of justice, responsibility, and accountability.

there are unfairnesses in life that simply cannot be mitigated. this is one of them. that doesn't mean that the diarists' reviled feminists are correct about every complaint.

my value system is pretty straightforward: if you're going to fuck women, be a man about it. don't go around crying about how feminists are all WATBs and you want to be one too.

Government systems have legal bodies meant to deal exactly with "unfairnesses" as you put it. That's such an odd and almost silly thing to say. We as humans go against our biology and genetic make up all the time. Women taking hormonal birth control to regulate ovulation. Woman can also have an abortion after becoming pregnant, a legal right. The Supreme Court, a legal body, determined abortion as a right. If a child gets cancer, various countries have determined healthcare a right and administer treatment due to that human concept, regardless of the genetic predisposition.

Stating that certain things can't be mitigated "just because" is just absurd. A simple law could be passed stating that men and women can sign a document forfeiting their parental rights to make varying decisions on their child and completely removing them from the picture, including financial responsibilities.

After reading some of your posts, you also seem to fixate on archaic, sexist roles. Men should man up and other garbage nonsense.

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@Strife Delivery
mitigate various sorrows and unfairnesses that the universe may throw our way, doesn't mean that all sorrows and unfairnesses can be resolved to the full and mutual satisfaction of all stakeholders. some problems don't have solutions. believing otherwise is worse than silly, it is delusional.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Strife Delivery's picture

@UntimelyRippd Now you're dodging and changing the parameters.

You first stated that some problems can't be mitigated and that this is one of them.

I showed that actually you can create simple legislation dealing with the issue.

Then you go off on saying that "some problems" just don't have solutions and that believing otherwise is delusional.

You changed from this particular problem to a generic "some problems" don't have solutions paradigm. We are dealing with this particular problem. I don't know why you are suddenly dodging by just claiming random problem don't have solutions when this one actually does.

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@Strife Delivery
it doesn't solve the issue, in the sense i used "solution" : a resolution mutually satisfying to all stakeholders. here's another "sample legislation" that "deals" with the issue just as effectively as the law you proposed: if a man impregnates a woman, he becomes her indentured servant until the offspring reaches the age of majority.
for some reason, i suspect that although this legislation completely resolves the issue, you wouldn't approve of it. at least, i hope you wouldn't approve of it, because it's appalling.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Strife Delivery's picture

@UntimelyRippd But we already have similar legislation in the concept of adoption.

In adoption for instance, a parent can offer up their child for adoption. They forfeit their parental rights and financial responsibilities to another individual.That parent does not continue to pay the family that adopted their child. That parent does not make any life decisions for that child.

So with adoption, a parent can forfeit their right to be a parent, they can choose to not be a parent...however, this can't be applied if say a father or mother wishes to give their parental rights solely to the other individual?

If we do something already so similar in adoption, it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to me to apply it in this manner.

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@Strife Delivery
father-who-doesn't-want-to-be-a-father is simple and obvious. indeed it is so simple and obvious that i'm not going to bother to state it.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Strife Delivery's picture

@UntimelyRippd You've already changed parameters for arguments and deflect away. So of course you won't explain this very obvious point of yours. It seems we aren't going to get anywhere with this to might as well leave it at that.

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@Strife Delivery When the car slips off the jack while changing a tire, crushing your foot, do you lay there beating the car with the tire iron or do you replace the jack more carefully to extract your foot? When the dog knocks the ladder out from under you while changing the light bulb, do you throw the bulbs across the floor cussing, or do you pick yourself up? Of course there're going to be accidents or they'd be called on purposes. Responsible people take care of accidents. Adults clean up the knocked over glass, not scream at the two year old they allowed to crawl through the bloody shards.
Since Dennis is only concerned with self gratification he can alleviate his problem with Rosy Redpalm. If that's too calloused, he can opt for a Pocket Polly. Won't even have spring for a dinner and movie. Hell, just go with the full grown silicon model with vibrating every orifice. Get two; one as your girlfriend the other your hooker,'cuz there are some things you won't ask your girlfriend to do.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Strife Delivery's picture

@ghotiphaze Your argument is almost per par with anti-abortion advocates. That people have to take responsibility for their accidents. And if they don't want to risk that responsibility, they shouldn't have sex.

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@Strife Delivery I'm neither pro nor anti abortion. Being a guy I don't feel I have the right to dictate how a woman controls her body. I can easily see instances where abortion is the responsible thing to do. Ultimately the woman's decision unless the guy goes full sea horse. But both are equally responsible for cost incurred.
However, that completely sidesteps the original essay which boils down to Dennis merely donated sperm so should not be held accountable for the raising of the child. 'Cuz that just ain't fair!

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Strife Delivery's picture

@ghotiphaze @ghotiphaze

I'm neither pro nor anti abortion. Being a guy I don't feel I have the right to dictate how a woman controls her body. I can easily see instances where abortion is the responsible thing to do. Ultimately the woman's decision unless the guy goes full sea horse. But both are equally responsible for cost incurred.
However, that completely sidesteps the original essay which boils down to Dennis merely donated sperm so should not be held accountable for the raising of the child. 'Cuz that just ain't fair!

To begin I never stated that you were for or against abortion. I said that your argument sounds quite familiar as those of the anti-abortion crowd.

Again no one is telling a woman what she should do. How is this point getting repeated in this topic? These comments here are really boggling my mind here.

And yes, if a parent wishes to forfeit their rights as a parent, they should be able to do that. Guess what, we already have that system in this country. If for instance a single mother wishes to put her child up for adoption, she is forfeiting her parental rights and duties, as well as financial obligations. Those mothers do not pay the new adopted family money because the mother forfeited her parental rights. How is that ANY different than having a father or mother wish to forfeit their parental rights to the other individual? There is no difference yet for some reason there is.

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maybe the universe isn't ordered so as to create perfect justice, and manning up is just what poor baby is going to have to do when caught on the wrong side of that balance.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@UntimelyRippd
if I said 'poor baby' should just women-up about it.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Deja's picture

@dennis1958 You tend to confuse womAn and womEn an awful lot.

Just like with mAn/mEn, it's one womAn, two or more womEn.

And hey, look, it's the same word after the wo.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

@UntimelyRippd
agreeing to be "fair". Mostly it isn't.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

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Socialprogressive's picture

If you don't want to be a dad because it cost to much and is to much of a hassle than DON'T FUCK WOMEN! Problem solved.

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When I offer to wash your back in the shower, all you have to say is yes or no.
Not all this "who are you, and how did you get in here?" nonsense.

Strife Delivery's picture

@Socialprogressive @Socialprogressive Again the folks here are sounding like rightwing republicans.

"Don't want to get pregnant? Don't fuck men."

Many folks are using the same arguments that anti-abortion folks use.

Edit* Added quotations to above line to show it is not my own quote but the similar logic that rightwing individuals use that people in this topic are using. Just to clear up potential confusion

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@Strife Delivery

…Party looks like. Cats sleep with dogs and other strange phenomena.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Citizen Of Earth's picture

@Socialprogressive
Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW).
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXVCVIkIpgUjCPtQ7lpy94Q

Yes, it is a thing -- apparently.

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Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.

@Citizen Of Earth @Citizen Of Earth
I sometimes drop a comment in their youtube chat that says 'MGTOW is stupid. Abandon it. Gender Peace is the way'

Quite honestly, about right now I'm kind of feeling like I might as well give the Gender Peace idea up.
I'm just sad for us. *sigh*

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Citizen Of Earth's picture

@dennis1958 @dennis1958
one of their grievances is "bias against men in family courts". So that kinda meshes with your essay conclusion. Or maybe I missed the point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

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Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.

@Citizen Of Earth
there's a strong anti-female current there.
Family court issues are more of a concern to men's rights and fatherhood right's people.
Again MGTOW is stupid. I am not responsible for them.
If you're a man. Don't join them would be my advice.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Raggedy Ann's picture

women and their bodies, I think men should legislate themselves out of being dads. The answer then is to just make it illegal to be a dad. Problem solved.

So many men only want to FUCK and have no responsibility. Women want that too, but men don't like that. Men don't want women to FUCK and have no responsibility. By making it illegal to be a dad, men can then FUCK to their heart's content if they can find women willing to allow them to FUCK without becoming a dad. I'm sure there are plenty of women out there who want the same thing. Another option, for men who don't want the responsibility of being a dad, they need to masturbate and have their little sperms die a good death. It's the only way.

I would love to see men stop trying to control women and their bodies. However, there are many men out there who are incapable of that. There are many men out there who are incapable of seeing anything from a women's point of view, thus only whining about themselves and what THEY want or don't want - as in this case.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

I never thought I'd see this type of discussion here! Are we being invaded by men's rights activists? Sad
I'm a single mom. I raised three boys on a waitress' salary, two of my own and one my second husband had with someone else during a period where we'd broken up for a couple of years. I have never gotten one single cent of child support ever. I have never asked for any. I am now supporting three children in college on a state worker's salary - better than a waitress', but not by that much. My first husband owns a house and makes a good living. He and his family were suing me for custody until the family court changed his unsupervised visits to only supervised visits. Then they said it was too embarrassing for them and dropped out of my son's life completely without so much as a goodbye. My son was 5 y/o. My second husband got me pregnant right before he left. I couldn't take birth control pills for medical reasons, couldn't afford the depo provera shot, he would not use a condom and he said spermicides were too icky. Yes, I guess if I was the person at 28 that I am now at 50, I would not have slept with him, but I was only a few years out of a severely abusive relationship that started when I was 14, and my second husband was abusive himself, if in a different way, so I wasn't all that strong, and he is very manipulative. He did want me to abort, but I couldn't for personal reasons that I won't go in to here (none of which were that I wanted a cute baby to play with, nor because I thought it would "trap" him). I did not expect him to be involved and asked nothing from him. I spent a few days thinking long and hard and decided I would take care of the baby myself, but of course I would allow him to be involved to whatever extent he wished. We eventually got back together, and turns out, he wished to be involved when he felt like it, and left me with all the kids when he didn't (which was most of the time). I raised them and cared for them. I stayed up all night doing "oops! forgot all about it" school projects with them. I cleaned the vomit and washed the bedding when they were sick. I walked the floor all night with them when they were babies. I drive back and forth to colleges and send them money I can't afford each week.
I had to be the responsible one, and I was. A father can walk away from his children and people will say he's an asshole, but if a mother does that she's a cold hearted monster. This society places a far greater moral responsibility on the mother.
Child support in all states is 17% of the non-custodial parent's salary for one child and 25% for any number over one. That's if the custodial parent is a stay home parent with no income which is not possible for most single mothers. Both parents have a fifty percent responsibility for the support of the child, so if a couple has five children, and the mom has full custody, and each parent makes 50,000/yr, the dad contributes $12,500/yr. If they have joint custody and the dad makes 10,000/yr, and the mom makes 50,000/yr, then the mom contributes 12,500-2,500(dad's 25%)= 10,000 to the dad. The federal government imposed this formula because they found that children of divorced parents living with their moms had a much lower standard of living than the dad (and any children of later relationships living with him). The formula is as fair as they could make it, but all the time I hear stuff like, "everyone knows child support is for the moms!" As if all a woman has to do is have a baby with some poor unsuspecting shlub and she's set for life!
Now as I've said, I never asked for one penny of child support - not even for the child I had no part at all in making - and none was ever offered. I can't even imagine what it would feel like if my husband could have forced me to have an abortion, or if he could have forced me not to, had abortion been my choice. And sorry but I know that I could never carry a baby to term and then give it up.
I don't think this is the huge issue men's rights activists make it out to be. Most of the time, when they talk about how feminism is subjugating their rights, they're really talking about their fear of losing their privileged status.
Sorry this is so long.

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@Iogrey
Nobody told me we couldn't talk about men's rights here.
It sure does look like it though don't it.
I've rarely seen so much blatant man hatred gathered in one place.
I too am stunned, and disgusted.
So many of the replies are soo illogical it's pointless to reply.
So few replies talk about the issue of the essay.
I feel a bit ashamed to say I'm on the left.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

@dennis1958
This is not hating men. I most certainly do not hate men. I hate it when someone tries to subjugate someone else's rights. How would forcing someone to have an abortion not be subjugating their rights?
Is this all about child support? Because no one can actually force you to be involved in raising the child. Do you think there are flocks of women out there who want to trick you into fatherhood so they can get their hands on 17% of 50% of the child's support?

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@Iogrey
Yes this is about an equal right to not incur the costs of a child.
So you got that part right anyway.
It has nothing to do with anyone tricking anyone.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Pluto's Republic's picture

@dennis1958

who said anything about forced abortion?

This is exactly what I was describing above! It's the weirdest thing I've ever seen. People come up with these facts that nobody is talking about, that have never been introduced, that have nothing to do with the premise — and turn them into Strawmen that they quickly knock down and stomp off in satisfied outrage.

Who are they talking to? Some phantom from their past? A passing UFO?

It's like St Vitas Dance has takes over the place when you introduce this topic.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

@Pluto's Republic
It's as though they went out of their way to prove most every point I made in the previous essay. Demonization of men-check, denigration of men-check, a callous lack of compassion for others-check, dismissal of men-check, looking silly-check.. on and on, I think every single point may have been touched.
It's not helping us.
I should adjust that essay to point to these comments. I won't do that but.. it would prove the points well I think.

Did you see the post about the sex dolls here? You can't rely to that because .. what can you say to that post? I laughed and thought, class act dude.

I was worried about 2018 when I wrote the other essay.
After seeing the replies to this essay, I am WAY more worried than I was before I wrote it.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

@Socialprogressive @dennis1958
aggrievement.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Strife Delivery's picture

@Iogrey

This is not hating men. I most certainly do not hate men. I hate it when someone tries to subjugate someone else's rights. How would forcing someone to have an abortion not be subjugating their rights?
Is this all about child support? Because no one can actually force you to be involved in raising the child. Do you think there are flocks of women out there who want to trick you into fatherhood so they can get their hands on 17% of 50% of the child's support?

Where are you reading from the topic at hand about forcing someone to have an abortion? It seems you are deliberately conflating something to attack something people aren't talking about just to avoid the actual discussion at hand.

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@dennis1958 mansplaining sounds so much like whitesplaining and richsplaining?

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

@ghotiphaze @ghotiphaze
Why is it your

@dennis1958 mansplaining sounds so much like whitesplaining and richsplaining?

Define these terms for me, will you? Please. [Edit. I am good with white man, but how much money do I need to be able to richsplain too? Be a triple-threat back!] This is real interesting, I got to say.
Did not expect this stuff here. Lots more interesting than that pol compass test.

Clear to me that Dennis 58 did not create these divisions or bad feeling. Here already!

As to D58 himself- is he honest or a bs troll. Who knows, who cares is my take.
The man/woman thing seems to be a toughie, though.

Dude-
(++) on Gloria Steinem/CIA tool, but you lose me (---) with Jackson Browne and "manly tears." Still keep rocking. Hope you get laid somehow.

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Shahryar's picture

there is abortion and there is abandonment. Two different things. Abortion means "no baby". Right? With me that far? Abandonment can mean giving a baby up for adoption or just leaving. That means there "is a baby". Can you spot the difference?

In an abortion situation neither the man nor the woman raises the child as there is no child. It is not just the woman who no longer has the responsibility for raising a child. Neither does. Let me know if I have to say this again in another way.

If there is no abortion and the baby is born I suppose,if unmarried, you would have the "right" to run away. Are there laws that say you can't? And we'd have the "right" to call you an @$$&%T*.

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studentofearth's picture

the child and adult(subdivided into man and woman). The child rights may be represented by the mother, father, guardian or government. The governments are using protection and expansion of child rights to reduce adult rights of an individual. As we are arguing who has more rights and is it fair, we are losing rights as individual adults to the government.

In general if the woman, is unmarried, and requires no additional funds to raise a child she has no obligation to identify or contact the father. The woman is identified as the mother because she physically gave birth. She can absolve herself of her responsibilities by having an abortion or placing the child up for adoption. The right to an abortion varies from state to state. Restrictions on abortion rights are usually framed as the child's right to life and the government assuming protection.

Proposed laws that require the name of the father prior to an abortion reduce both men's and women's rights. Women for control of her body, men the ability to stay anonymous and both may be forced to continue a relationship they thought was an casual interaction or a secret affair.

If the women is unable to fund all the costs of a child she can request financial assistance from the federal and/or state government. It is not uncommon for her to lose the right not to name the father and the father loses the right of anonymity. The government has a interest in recouping costs or minimizing costs of raising the child. Insuring child support payments are collected is a benefit to the state, by either reimbursing government costs or improving the income of the custodial parent to reduce eligibility. The aggressiveness of governments attempt to collect payments from the non-custodial parent varies from state to state.

Marriage rights are governed by the state. If a child is conceived by a woman in a marriage contract, both the woman and man rights are effected by the marriage contract. Dissolution of a marriage contract is subject to state laws. We each have the right to live in any state. Unless the right was lost by the individual, for example a condition of parole.

If you participate in marriage or sexual activity you may become a parent. In some states all children conceived in marriage are a product of the marriage, biology does not effect financial responsibilities. No birth control method is 100% fail safe, vasectomy is close, but not perfect.

There are arguments (valid) why a child should not have less rights or be considered property of an adult, but did not seem to be the concern of the diary.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

TheOtherMaven's picture

and Lose-Lose-Lose for everybody.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Centaurea's picture

@TheOtherMaven A great demonstration of how easily it can happen.

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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

@TheOtherMaven and far to much time has been wasted on this post. Hopefully the distraction wont last very long. This is clearly personal, he has pointed out in a prior essay that he and his son had gone through divorce.

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"Play with all the time."

But apparently we are not in mood for light touches.

Have to say props to Dennis coming in here to make his case, whatever you think of it.

It is up to us to respond correctly.

He did say he has changed his views due to discussion. Why not give him benefit of doubt?
Make your point- show him to be wrong. Or let him sit.

Not scared of him. thx.

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@irishking
I hold a mirror up. Take a look into it. what do you see?
Most of the comments here are none too pretty. Now are they?
Most of the comments prove EXACTLY why people are going anti-feminist.
Grats girls, you're losing more friends.
THATS gonna win elections and protect abortion by god.
Fools.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

TheOtherMaven's picture

@irishking
Essayist is not interested in a fair, even-handed discussion. Essayist wants us all arguing with each other and with him (and, in a sense, with the unfairness of the universe).

Mission accomplished.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

@TheOtherMaven @TheOtherMaven @TheOtherMaven

Probably all he wanted, as you say.

Think c99 could have responded a little better to his provocations.

Good to have it out,anyway. Did not get completely out of order.

Guess women's rights issues are DONE for most here. But not for all.

Reason is the way, imo.

thx.

c99
at the blue water pool
truth is the rule
fools go to be schooled
all are kept cool
and everyone plays in the water.

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Here is an approach to the issues that haven't been addressed and have little to do with feminism and men's rights.
The focus in this approach will be from the child's rights.
Adults have rights and voices in court.
Children of tender years cannot testify, cannot make their wishes known. Ad litems are tasked with trying to figure out what the child would say if they could speak out.
Laws are in place to provide for the best interests of the child.
Either parent can be required to pay child support. It is gender neutral.
In Texas, if the court finds it is in the best interest of the child to terminate the rights of one or both parents, it requires a showing that the termination is not for the sole benefit of the adult's pocket book.
Child support is an obligation, not a debt, therefore the protection against debtor's prison is not readily and obviously available.
The real fools are the crying men who forgot to use protection, knowing full well a woman has the sole discretion to have a child.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
Your reply is not germane to the issue.
It's about the rights of men and women to accept or reject the costs of parenthood.
And let me add, by your logic, (your misandry) then women do NOT need abortion. All they have to do is not have sex.
Gezzus H s-peggti monster. Right wing much there OTC?

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

@dennis1958 Women have a legal right to abort. Either party may terminate their legal rights and allow for adoption. Men are legally "forced" to be parents.
There should be some legal and binding contract for men to opt out.
But a discussion of the legal system, wherein adults are not given a platform to discuss their emotional and financial realities resulting from their choices, but the children are the first court concern, is off topic and right wing?

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

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