Is Jill Stein a champion of public morality or a dupe?

So Jill Stein has miraculously raised the money to recount votes in 3 states. What are the possible outcomes and what do they mean?
1. Trump still wins, but it is proven that Hillary stole Jill's votes. The Optimum result.
2. Hillary wins, but stole Jill's votes. The worst possible result - Trump supporters will go to civil war and Hillary will be president and the establishment will say. "see? no need to reform, justice was done" (until the bombs drop)
3. The recount proves nothing, because there is no paper trail. The establishment can then say that "it was all a conspiracy theory, nothing to be worked up over" The almost certain result. (if there was election fraud, the perpetrators can do it for the recount the same way)
This leads to 2 questions:
1. Who's paying for the recount and who, if anyone, hacked the voting machines
2. Why is Jill calling for a recount?

Logically, Jill is recounting for result #1. The Greens would want matching funds, and the survival of life on Earth demands that Hillary does not have access to nuclear weapons. But Jill is sounding like a hillbot, and the Hillary corruptocrats are the most likely funding source.
But why would the corruptocrats fund a Green recount rather than recount themselves? My answer, they want result #3, like they got in 2004. The status quo is preserved, and, unlike in 2004, the Dems don't look like the Vichy French.
Then why is Jill doing it, since the most likely result #3 - the greens don't get matching funds, and Trump is still president? My heart says moral crusader - the Greens want matching funds, and Dr. Stein, like Bernie, believes (suicidally) that Trump's racism is a greater threat than Hillary's corruption and warmongering. Effectively, that makes her a dupe.

Tangent: An article on JPR ( http://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/nys-primary-and-election-results/ ) showed the voting results for New York. It showed that Trump (and Bernie before him) carried all of NY except NYC. 9well, Buffalo and Syracuse also) Since Illinois is demographically similar to NY, it is logical that Illinois was also, a (red/Berniecrat) state overwhelmed by Chicago. CA is, considering the primary, unreliable, but LA (and SF) serve the same purpose. Are we really a country dominated by (3) major cities?

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lunachickie's picture

gets shoehorned into a corner she can't get out of?

Something smells ROTTEN about how much money was raised, that fast. This is no goddamn grassroots effort, regardless of the purity--or not--of Ms. Stein's motives. Something really stinks besides the US voting here.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

That's the first thing.

Hillary will never be held accountable for any crime she commits or any rule she breaks. It's probably nobody working for her will either. It's been proven during this election cycle that she's above the law. At least twice.

Therefore, only fraud committed by Trump will be seen and acted upon. Even if the audit is done fairly, it will be reported and acted upon asymmetrically, leaving Clinton the injured, innocent victim with clean hands.

And Bingo! the fight for Election Integrity is co-opted, just like the fights for racial justice and gender justice before it.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

has claimed Trump as a WIN. Not in any real sense but we were happy to see Her Heinous lose and rightly so after watching the Democratic party sell out. Yes, we need an entire election do over, but that's NOT going to happen here. We have every right to question motives and sources of money, and timing quite frankly. If this is all about getting more access for third parties, again, why only certain states where Hillary lost?

There is no need to hurl petty insults at people out here about football games or "winning," you're more than able to make your case without those.

As for responses to another diary about the election rigging, maybe you give people a little bit of quarter there on not immersing themselves any more in the misery of watching a corrupt election system. We know it was done, and has been done, but I for one will continue to question the timing of this particular effort, and yes, the amounts of money raised in such a short time do not help there.

And if Hillary does somehow come out of this as POTUS? I think that spells real trouble for anyone who even cares about election integrity anymore. When people blatantly see the theft of their votes during the Primary and Hillary gets into office, do you really think that'll make anyone bother to even vote at all? And our plutocrats would like nothing better than small dedicated "minorities" of rabid supporters to keep them in office.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Very well said. I have also been on this issue since 2004 and suffered similar treatment by loved ones and friends who before thought very highly of my thoughts and insights. I even subscribed to Harpers in 2012 when it became the first "mainstream" publisher to address computerized election fraud in Victoria Collier's "How to Rig an Election." I bought four copies of the print issue as well -- in my small effort to reward the publisher for its courage.

The Green Party also requested a recount of the NH primaries in 2008 -- in which people may recall that HC made a miraculous comeback to "win" the state and keep her campaign alive for a few more months. Bev Harris at BBV covered that extensively. The cheating in the recount was almost comical.

Publicly hand-counted paper ballots -- with a reliable chain-of-custody -- just has to be the standard if we want any democracy at all. To the extent that Stein's efforts can get us closer to that, I support her -- even if those efforts are being funded by HC's machine.

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the corporatists will almost certainly spin the recount if it doesn't flip the election. And if it does, the Trump supporters will react violently and Hillary will nuke Iran then stage a "military response" to "Russian hacking". I want verifiable elections, not nuclear war.

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On to Biden since 1973

Meteor Man's picture

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

I mean, seriously? With the ongoing brainwashing of America to accept more and more violence and brutality, could you tell me when we might be allowed to have non-rigged elections? Is there some sort of "soft" or "politically correct" calling-out of the obvious FRAUD that won't get either batch of thugs thinking about violence? Because I can't imagine it. It's a minority, on either side, but how long do we let fear of them rule us?

I have lived my entire life under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation. It won't work to try to scare me with either one of the monsters having their fingers on the button. Reagan and W both filled that chair, and we are still here.

And the corporatists (fascists) might spin anything to their own benefit using their propaganda organs in the MSM? Like they always do?

If we cannot vote, we cannot create change. All the awfulness will continue. If our votes don't count, we will never stop the oligarchy. We will never take the pressure off the 99%. Refusing to confront this problem now out of fear of some possible violence, will drive us closer to making violence a certainty. And I honestly don't want that outcome.

And could we please drop the false framing and the false choice here? If election fraud is proven, we need a DO-OVER. Not another GUESS as to who would have won, if we change ONLY parameter X. NOT just a simple switch from one monster to the other. If ANY CANDIDATE got cheated, that is a rigged election, it should not stand, it must not stand. It's a bloody shame that Bernie didn't make an issue of it during the Primaries, or we could have got here sooner. But if Jill can prove she was cheated, especially if she was cheated by BOTH sides, we need a new election. Period. The world will not end if we must have another election next year, without the rigging. -And quite possibly without a Trump or a Clinton in sight.

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"Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."
- John Maynard Keynes

And yes, considering that Hillary would be very likely to destroy the world, doing anything that could help her is incredibly irresponsible.

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I don't want the wrong outcome.
"he proved election fraud in 2016 and died in a nuclear fireball in 2017" - Worst. Headstone. Ever.

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Cassiodorus's picture

while everyone else in politics engages a futile effort to "take over the Democratic Party"?

YES!

Perhaps this little fact might help as regards the whole "election integrity" thing.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

co-opted Stein at this point. They're good at that, in a "if the bucks don't get 'em, bring out the billy clubs" kind of way.

If that weren't the case, every close state would be audited.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lunachickie's picture

completely bankrolling this shit and they have something on Stein.

Or they've met her price, because rumor hazzit that everybody's got one...

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Lady Libertine's picture

I just had to scratch my head. Ive been way too spotty to have a good grasp of it all and I do abhor electoral politics nitpicking in general so theres that. Anyway... thanks.

Also seeing the Dem Loyals going ballistic over - well everything but - the conviction that RUSSIA!!! is out to get us and we should probably all be hiding under our beds very soon, its all just turning me off in such a major way... sigh.

Ive always been very cynical but this past year really takes the cake. Yes Virginia people really are that stupid (manufactured to be so but still).

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Lady Libertine's picture

had not read Caitlin yet

We now live in a society where sources that don’t confirm one’s bias are immediately dismissed as “fake news”, and nothing is considered true unless Wolf Blitzer says it. This is killing political discourse in America, and it’s turning us all into idiots.

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sojourns's picture

being made to the current election process as it stands today. It would involve much more citizen involvement than I believe is possible. It would require many many letters to congress by many many individuals. Repeatedly.
America by and large, seems satisfied when questions are raised followed by complaints and denials, all neatly packaged and finally aired on and by MSM . That calms the atmosphere leaving the everyday people to go on continuing to hope for the best and leave it to others, hopefully dedicated individuals, that can not make it happen alone.

When it comes to voting machines, electronic machines are viable if the use is properly overseen along with a printed receipt issued, using bonded, serialized paper to every voter. Ideally, every aspect of the process should be policed by vetted federal observers assigned to precincts during the vote and the counting houses that handle votes by mail. For electronic machines, the claim and use of "propietary" code (which is bullshit as a talented high school student could code a tabulation program) must be eliminated in favor of open source coding available for everyone to see and then every machine checked before and after use on a daily basis. Daily because that is one discovers self-destructing code modules. To anyone who thinks it is too expensive, I say forget that; it's cheaper than the paint job on a nuclear missile.

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

Hawkfish's picture

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that every donation includes an email address because it is a campaign contribution. That is a valuable commodity in the ongoing fight.

But what can they do with this mailing list? Well, the first email I got after the recount campaign started was a solicitation to support Standing Rock. I don't know if they are keeping the lists separate, but if they are not, then they are leveraging the Hillaroids money for one of the most important this happening in the country today.

And the Hillaroids do have money - average contribution size from her donor base is twice that of everyone else. Suckering them onto a list and then guilting them into doing something useful with their spare change seems tactically brilliant.

You can also left out an interesting scenario if the recount reverses the outcome. All of a sudden, the left is no longer a bunch of extremists but the white knight that saved her ass. Jill for HHS? Ajuma of SoS? David Cobb for AG? Not likely I admit, but the Greens as the hero of the left could be worth a lot going forward.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

they're on their payroll.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

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All of a sudden, the left is no longer a bunch of extremists but the white knight that saved her ass. Jill for HHS? Ajuma of SoS? David Cobb for AG?

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edg's picture

that Jill Stein raised more money for these recounts in 3 days than she raised for her entire 2016 presidential campaign over the past 18 months. Very interesting.

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lunachickie's picture

Follow the money trail. Seriously.

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Hawkfish's picture

But I would caution against assuming they are all Hillaroids. There was an article in the Intercept arguing that Trump should be demanding a recount to establish his legitimacy, so I don't know how many of his people (or generic rethugs) are funding this.

The donations are federal campaign contributions, however, so we will be able to track back contributors and get a sense of the demographics, but the data will not be available until the 20th of next month.

Which brings me to a tangential rant: There is no reason in this day and age why campaigns can't have this sort of data available in near real-time. The report is just a spreadsheet and can probably just be generated automatically at any point in time. There is some cleaning needed, but that can be done on an ongoing basis. This would be great for transparency - which is probably why one one wants to do it. Democracy is now a trade secret.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

sojourns's picture

There may be many more people interested in aiding her to get down to the root of the matter as there were in voting for her. Measured cynicism is better than knee jerk ninja cynicism. Nothing is that obvious.

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

lunachickie's picture

polite way of Getting this particular Data.

There is no reason in this day and age why campaigns can't have this sort of data available in near real-time.

There already is; you just have to be privy to the report.

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shaharazade's picture

No wonder I'm laying low and staying offline. Tell me this if Jill Stein successfully get the feds to audit the election results in thee states who is going to a:verify the voting results, b: who will investigate and decide that the election needs to be redone? The DOJ? Congress? The Supreme's? An independent investigation commission set up by the complicit government? lol. There is no longer any justice or checks and balances, or separation of powers, they are in cahoots, it's a duopoly folks, an oligarchy and it's global. It's also one that strongly favored the Clinton's.

Like The Mad Bomber's not a racist.To fight with each other on so called social issues like race, gender, religion, just perpetuates the 'culture war' divides that both sides work hard to keep fermenting. I'm sure the Russians would feature heavily as the culprit as we all know he is in cahoots with the evil racist Trump. She lost despite the rigging. How absurd to have a big freaking internecine fight about which side did it. They all do it on every level.

All this would do is create another Benghazi! style DC kabuki show. Of course it was rigged so was the primary on the Democratic side. The Democratic leadership even so called progressives would say as Mr. Patriotic Progressive did regarding prosecuting or impeaching the Bush "it's just too hard on the American people and will cause people lose confidence in the system" Like anybody with a unwashed brain has confidence in this farce of a democracy.

Of course this country need to 'reform' it electoral system but like everything else that needs reforming it's not going to happen via the red and blue. Neither side wants to rock this boat they have a good thing going as far as abusing their power for profit goes. Jeeze the Clinton neoliberal machine just will not go away. To fight the on social issues like race, gender, religion, just perpetuates the 'culture war' divides that both sides work hard to keep fermenting.

So where were the calls from the Greens or Bernie to redo the disgusting Dem. primary? In a government that decides 60 votes= a majority and that crimes are legal if it's too hard to prosecute, it's not a crime just unethical, or the old saw of the rich and powerful their was no intent how can any fraudulent election be overturned? There is no 'rule of law' the owners of the place decided it was an impediment to their interest's. Abuse of power is by-partisan.

As for Jill and the Greens who cares? She's just another pol. The Greens should have invested their money and time organizing on a grassroots long ago local, state level instead of yakking on fb. Personally I think the only good thing about this farce of an election was that it made people aware of just how corrupt the Democratic party was and that it cut into the Clinton's grip on the party. I want the whole damn 'New Democratic' party to bust up and this defeat rigged or not looks like a good start. Most likely both sides cheated and the people were so disgusted with Clinton's and the corrupt Dems. that they decided not to vote. The horse has left the barn.

Where was Jimmy Carter or the UN don't they do election monitoring internationally? Oh yeah America doesn't recognize international law or domestic for that matter. I'm saying why didn't the Greens or even the Democratic party not contest the Clinton machine's vote rigging during the primary? How can you reform the broken electoral system from the rotten to the core inside of the duopoly? We all know it's rigged and broken but the solutions for fixing it are not going to implemented by the very system that rigged it in the first place. Maybe the election 'fix' by the Democratic side didn't work as Clinton was just just too evil and nasty to swallow even with deplorable The Hairball's insane campaign.

Where's my habeas corpus or posse comitatus?

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lunachickie's picture

suspicion around here? The ask-questions-first-assume later thing? Has it gone away? The question isn't "Is Stein a dupe or a champion?", it's "Where did all the money come from?"

Jill Stein becomes a fund-raising machine inside a week, when she couldn't even get arrested at Standing Rock?

Please. There is nothing legit about *any* of this....

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riverlover's picture

Nice of Them to provide theater. Naughty to give hope to the deluded.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

lunachickie's picture

There's just way too much wrong here, in the middle of all this Necessary Action.

Naughty to give hope to the deluded.

This may depend on whose supporters you're referring to when ya say that Wink

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riverlover's picture

who have petticoats all in flounce mode now, grasping at straws. And this big straw may be a lifeline for them. Sigh.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

lunachickie's picture

all the way to the bank.

This "lifeline" is deliberate. Boy, to find that Fake News link that had some precinct captain busting one of their employees with a bunch of blank ballots on Election Night. This whole thing almost smells like Plan Z. The Hillarians' leadership has been far too quiet these last couple weeks. You know, the kind of quiet like, when it's your kids, you go "OK, it's too quiet, wtf are are they up to?"? Yeah, that kind. Now, just imagine bunches and bunches of blank ballots and before you know it, all these newly-minted Wronged Hillarian Voters magically have their votes count in key states where she happens to have Big Dog Dem Machines behind her? And just in case The Bad Guys decide to ignore The Seething Masses, there, we'll throw some money around and make it look legitimate. Oh, look--let's use that Green Party lady that couldn't get arrested six months ago to fundraise with. The money will just pour in!

Are. You. Fucking. Kidding. Me???

Yeah, I've got piles of money to throw around during the holidays, to just up and give to someone who is now skirting more questions than providing actual answers, to "petition to recount" ballots from the last election, but only somewhere where I don't even live, when I can barely pay my own fucking bills--after they couldn't be bothered to encourage the same for Bernie Sanders voters, back when the same shit happened to the primaries? What kind of stupid am I, that I pony up, when I'm rationing trips this weekend because gasoline? I don't know about you. I also know that all my humble and similarly-situated friends spent a lot of money on Thanksgiving dinner, relative to their own condition, and payday isn't until next week.

So, isn't anybody the least bit curious to know where all those "donations" are coming from? I'm sure any minute, Jill Stein will clear it all up at an impromptu News Conference, where CNN will hang on her every word...

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WI is controlled by Scott Walker, a corruptocan, not a corruptocrat. The SOS of MI is a Republican, though the SOS of PA is a Democrat. Expect that a lot of evidence is either missing or destroyed. Probably not a Hillary plot to flip the election.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Most of whom, sad to say, like Hillary better than I do...at least that's how it seems.

On the other hand, it might be her big donors.

Anybody auditing the donation process? Heh.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

suspicion, but Jill was arrested at Standing Rock and the DNC convention.

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lunachickie's picture

she's been arrested at two debates and a convention.

No charges stuck, though I think she can't expect to travel in North Dakota with an outstanding warrant.

So....no.

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lunachickie's picture

any of these links that demonstrate how Jill Stein became a fundraising juggernaut overnight?

And why is she only going after certain states?

There's way too much blind faith being taken here.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Jesus Christ dancing on a toadstool, how many times this election are we going to have some Person of Great Integrity trotted out in front of us to push some Hillary-friendly meme?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Person of Great Integrity trotted out in front of us to push some Hillary-friendly meme

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elenacarlena's picture

trusted, so we get paper trails and/or backups on every voting machine, then I don't care about her motive. She could possibly reach 5%. This could have been funded by the Hillbots in hopes Hill would reach 51%. But who cares? More honest elections. That would be a blessing.

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lunachickie's picture

A lot of people who voted for that Really Loud Guy on the GOP side might care. For starters.

This could have been funded by the Hillbots in hopes Hill would reach 51%.

You can't not care about that, just to get the end result you think you really want. Is Jill Stein going to be the savior of anything relative to and critical to, The Green Party? Remember, a scant few weeks ago, many here were of a mind that The Green Party is half-assed together or pointless or inept or for whatever reason can just never seem to quite get it together. So "where the money comes from" is pretty fucking critical here. Suddenly, Jill Stein is a genius?

Nah.

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elenacarlena's picture

If so, then the rest doesn't matter. We stand up for democracy whether it hurts or helps "our" candidate. If the computers are being flipped and our votes inaccurately recorded and we don't fix that, then we might as well abandon politics. There truly would be zero point in voting, it's all rigged. So no, I don't think Jill is a genius and I don't care. I don't care who funds the recount or which politician it benefits.

The point is to take back our stolen votes.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

There is no way for Hillary to have a genuine win. She already violated the principle of one person, one vote. Her campaign was marked by so many flavors of voter purges I started calling her the Baskin Robbins of voter suppression.

She committed election fraud and voter suppression in the primary, or, more likely, others did it on her behalf. In one case (Brooklyn's purge of 126K people) we know who did it and that a Hillary superdelegate bought a piece of real estate off her for several million dollars over the market value before the election.

Fraud has already been committed on behalf of Hillary Clinton's campaign. There is no way to make a win by her an authentic expression of the people's will. There is no way to make a win by her an expression of democracy--

except one. Audit the Democratic primary, and prove me wrong.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

an audit of the primary can do nothing but 1)Find out that Trump was committing fraud too, and thus install Hillary, who has already committed fraud, in office, or 2)Find out that Trump wasn't committing fraud too, in which case nothing would change.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lunachickie's picture

because we all know the Primary was stolen.

Do you want to fix this house? Fix the foundation FIRST. Start with those primary audits or don't fucking bother. If this happens with the GE balloting only, They're just making this worse for everybody, including themselves, because too much of this particular "Storyline" stinks to fucking Hell and back.

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Is the recount a good thing or a bad thing? Should we be championing this thing or out in opposition?

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They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret-- A. Moore

lunachickie's picture

that's being propped up as The Bottom Line.

Big difference.

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Inquiring minds want to know.

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They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret-- A. Moore

lunachickie's picture

address the root of the corruption.

The way it's being "positioned" (to borrow a phrase), it's not going to do that. So no, in this case, it's not a good thing.

Your inquiring mind didn't know this? You're welcome Wink

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Stein could have lead the drive in states that can't do that.
If HRC does not challenge, and Stein shows Dem. fraud elsewhere- speaks volumes.

See no good reason to front an attempted coup for Clinton.
Though Stein herself seems to have found a "convincing" one.
Hope I am hearing it wrong, but so far-

"No me gusta su cancion.", Dr. Stein.

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Cachola's picture

ME!!!!! Wink

I hate her the most and for a long, long time.

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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

Well, if we're going to argue about status...

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On to Biden since 1973

lunachickie's picture

seriously? The Inquisitir?

(cough) Isn't that Fake News? (cough)

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

the way I do. "Using" Clinton's machine usually results in oneself being used. Must be done only w/great care.

and I'd also say, if Stein is doing this to fund the Green party, she's being mighty careless about what might get taken down in the crossfire.

Shit. We need a real People's organization, at this point I don't care what.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lunachickie's picture

about it...

if Stein is doing this to fund the Green party,

It IS mighty strange that there's nothing on their website about any of this. And yeah, whoever else called the same thing out noted the very important NBC language "Green Party candidate".

We need a real People's organization

That's a fact. I think this answers the question "Can the Green Party be used as a vehicle to fund transformative politics by regular, real lefties?" Someone beat us to it...

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EJF

Deja's picture

With all the respect in the world, I wish you'd give a textual teaser for the vids you link to, because they're usually good, and it'll help people to click if they have vid capable devices, and know what he said. (Also, the second icon from the left, above the text box is a tool that'll give your linked vids a box once posted - not just a link. Please don't hate me for all the above!)

To others: His title makes it sound like he's a Trump supporter. He was a Berner! He mentioned wanting a recount back in the primaries in New York and Nevada. He's the real deal, at least I think, and I'm just me.

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riverlover's picture

timeline, space-time continuum, joke, universe or bizarro-world. Hard to place a belief anywhere. As long as I have no financial input I guess I am just a leaf floating on a stream, picking up speed as it narrows or shallows and there seems to be a waterfall coming or at least rapids from the noise ahead OM...

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

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