Is Jill Stein a champion of public morality or a dupe?

So Jill Stein has miraculously raised the money to recount votes in 3 states. What are the possible outcomes and what do they mean?
1. Trump still wins, but it is proven that Hillary stole Jill's votes. The Optimum result.
2. Hillary wins, but stole Jill's votes. The worst possible result - Trump supporters will go to civil war and Hillary will be president and the establishment will say. "see? no need to reform, justice was done" (until the bombs drop)
3. The recount proves nothing, because there is no paper trail. The establishment can then say that "it was all a conspiracy theory, nothing to be worked up over" The almost certain result. (if there was election fraud, the perpetrators can do it for the recount the same way)
This leads to 2 questions:
1. Who's paying for the recount and who, if anyone, hacked the voting machines
2. Why is Jill calling for a recount?

Logically, Jill is recounting for result #1. The Greens would want matching funds, and the survival of life on Earth demands that Hillary does not have access to nuclear weapons. But Jill is sounding like a hillbot, and the Hillary corruptocrats are the most likely funding source.
But why would the corruptocrats fund a Green recount rather than recount themselves? My answer, they want result #3, like they got in 2004. The status quo is preserved, and, unlike in 2004, the Dems don't look like the Vichy French.
Then why is Jill doing it, since the most likely result #3 - the greens don't get matching funds, and Trump is still president? My heart says moral crusader - the Greens want matching funds, and Dr. Stein, like Bernie, believes (suicidally) that Trump's racism is a greater threat than Hillary's corruption and warmongering. Effectively, that makes her a dupe.

Tangent: An article on JPR ( http://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/nys-primary-and-election-results/ ) showed the voting results for New York. It showed that Trump (and Bernie before him) carried all of NY except NYC. 9well, Buffalo and Syracuse also) Since Illinois is demographically similar to NY, it is logical that Illinois was also, a (red/Berniecrat) state overwhelmed by Chicago. CA is, considering the primary, unreliable, but LA (and SF) serve the same purpose. Are we really a country dominated by (3) major cities?

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Bisbonian's picture

but it uses the other four you mentioned to prop up support.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

josb's picture

It's that simple.

Also, why are people not up in arms about that? Are Americans really that ignorant and/or apathetic? Don't they understand that without a paper trail, we can't know who voted for whom (or what), so any arguments about who received how many votes are meaningless, as one cannot be sure that the vote totals weren't adjusted?

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that's why any "recount" will only serve to whitewash.

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On to Biden since 1973

josb's picture

We are in the unfortunate situation that the current status is already unverifiable and probably not a reflection of actual voter intent. Garbage in, garbage out, so to speak. So if a candidate did want to do something, they would pick states that a) could be verified by recount and b) would have maximum impact on the election, for maximum publicity and bet that the outcome would indicate that fraud had indeed been committed. And of course the candidate would have to have standing.

The primary results should have been recounted, but Bernie screwed that up. So here we are. This sadly is the next best thing - have to start somewhere.

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That would be a positive.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

WindDancer13's picture

No one in the government is willing to do anything about it, and the issue of the machines is forgotten until the next election. Think back...we have all had this argument about the machines before, but after a 1-1/2 to 2 year election cycle the public who wants it fixed is probably too exhausted to do what is necessary.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

They come into play on those rare occasions when there is a candidate who actually poses some kind of threat to the status quo. That's very rare, but it's a nice backup plan if you're an oligarch pretending that you and your pals rule a "democracy."

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TheOtherMaven's picture

Start with your locality, or your state if you're ambitious enough, and persuade them the touch-screen machines are too flawed and hackable to use (suggestion: ask if they would use an ATM that did not give a paper receipt).

Virginia went over to op-scan recently, after enough people raised hell. Still no paper printout to go with it, but the system was rush-implemented and that may be a "future refinement".

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

about the voting machines. He said my telling him was the first he heard about it.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

pre-crooked voting machine vote.
Just one thing that keeps the vote righteous and according to Hoyle, is the insidious voter picture ID.
Old folks without driver's licenses, possibly in some facility, can't vote.
A recount is not going to expose machine flips that by their very nature can't be audited.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

WoodsDweller's picture

Population of Combined Statistical Areas (2015)

A combined statistical area (CSA) is composed of adjacent metropolitan (MSA) and micropolitan statistical areas (µSA) in the United States and Puerto Rico that can demonstrate economic or social linkage.

New York etc. - 23.7 million
LA, etc. - 19.7 million
Chicago, etc. - 9.9 million
Washington DC, etc. - 9.6 million
San Fransisco, etc. - 8.7 million
Boston, etc. - 8.1 million

There's 79.7 million out of 321 million (2015), or 24.8 %

So, yes, basically. Six metro areas account for a quarter of the population. A very large state like California or Texas has a couple of major metro areas, most have only one, some only have a lesser metro area.
This is the counter argument to popular vote elections for President - candidates would only campaign in the top 20 metro areas and the rest of the country would be totally ignored.
On a national scale we speak of "fly over country", everything except the metroplexes on the east and west coasts. Within the states of the flyover country, the lesser metro areas manage to ignore everything else. And all the resources come from "out here" and nobody gives two hoots about us.

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"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone

Oldest Son Of A Sailor's picture

Where they had made 2 maps showing Trump's America & Clinton's America...

Have A Look Here, resizing wouldn't have done them justice...

Land Area

Clinton’s America
15%
530,000 square miles

Trump’s America
85%
3,000,000 square miles

Population

Clinton’s America
54%
174 million

Trump’s America
46%
148 million

Enjoy the names on the map...

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"Do you realize the responsibility I carry?
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."

~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,
WindDancer13's picture

Hillbots often said during the primaries that Sanders knew the rules going in, and so we should not complain when things went awry. Well, HRC with all of her experience knows the how the electoral college works. She chose to believe that people would accept "I'm not Trump" as some kind of campaign promise (one that she would have reneged on also considering her stance on fracking and the racist and xenophobic policies she has backed).

It didn't work; now the Dems and HRC are scrambling to save something. If she wanted those votes, she should have worked for them rather than taking them for granted.

While the Electoral College may need some tweaks (and voting machines need to be trashed) does anyone really want the biggest cities making the decisions for all the rest of us? That is what the popular vote people and corporations want.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

How many square feet of land gets one vote?

The population density of Trumpville is minuscule when compared to the big cities you clearly disdain. If you were to scale these maps based on population density, Trumpville would disappear back into the dustbin where it belongs.

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Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.

edg's picture

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Oldest Son Of A Sailor's picture

About all the parts of the body arguing over who was boss...
It went like this...

Who’s the Boss?
When the Lord made man, all the parts of the body argued over who would be boss.

The brain explained that since he controlled all the parts of the body, he should be boss. The legs argued that since they took man wherever he wanted to go, they should be boss. The stomach countered with the explanation that since he digested all the food, he should be boss. The eyes said that without them man would be helpless, so they should be boss. Then the asshole applied for the job. The other parts of the body laughed so hard at this that the asshole became mad and closed up.

After a few days…
The brain went foggy, the legs got wobbly, the stomach got ill, and the eyes got crossed and unable to see. They all conceded and made the asshole boss.
This proved that you don’t have to be a brain to be boss…
Just an Asshole.

Now think of this country as all those areas outside of Hillaryland as the ones that support the needs of Hillaryland, the food, the water, the fuel, all the things that aren't produced in Hillaryland that they cannot survive without, we'll call those areas outside Trumpland...

Hillaryland after all is an important place, corporations live there, they own most of the farms, factories, and other businesses out in Trumpland, Hillaryland also has the financial markets where all the people in Trumpland bank their money, and invest in retirement accounts, this country cannot survive without Hillaryland...

So Hillaryland firmly in power decides to enact a long series of laws that are good for the folks in Hillaryland, the movers and shakers of the financial markets buy and sell corporations using the retirement funds of those in Trumpland. Selling off the assets and taking huge loans to pay themselves well, offshoring the jobs of Trumpland people, and leaving behind closing bankrupt factories. The big Corporate Farms squeeze out the family farms and dominate the food market damaging the earth with unhealthy farming practices using herbicides and genetically modified plants, and hormone fattened livestock raised in unhealthy conditions, all of which are great for production. The workforce and wealth in Trumpland dwindles and they find it hard to survive...

Then the Asshole becomes mad and closes up.

Who's the Boss Now?

The fact is we need representation of all parts of this country and to take actions which benefit everyone...

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"Do you realize the responsibility I carry?
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."

~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,
CS in AZ's picture

it could just as easily be any other major body part of system that "shut down" and brought the others into compliance. If it was the lungs or the heart, it wouldn't take days before the others gave in, but mere seconds. Who's the boss? Cooperation and coordinated work by all parts is necessary. Who mediates it and keeps things working? That is the question. I think what is needed is more like a coach or conductor, not a boss.

But if you have a boss, it should be someone who gets that they alone do don't a thing; it's the coordinated, unending work of all the "underlings" together that makes anything happen. Good bosses are the ones who know that. Bad ones are those who imagine they are in power because they are better than anyone else, or stronger, or more important. Yes often times those who act like assholes end up being in charge for a time, but they often fail because they don't grasp their dependence on the people they are bossing, until things fall apart... and then the asshole boss moves on while the team carries on with getting the work done. Bosses like that are an impediment to productivity and success, and it catches up with them sooner or later. But they certainly can cause a lot of problems in the meantime.

Anyway, I agree with your last sentence.

That map is misleading in my opinion because it erases the opposition -- to both sides -- that is sprinkled throughout "Hillaryland' and "Trumpland" -- if they "won" an area, the area is then painted as if everyone there made the same choice. But we are not separate islands. I live in what that map calls Tucson Island on the Hillary map and Bay of Tucson on the Trump map -- we are Hillaryland, supposedly. But I drive around here, I talk to people, I listen to what people are saying, and I see far more support for Trump, and none for Hillary. This was true before the election and now. Trump stickers everywhere. I've yet to see a pro-Hillary bumper sticker on any car. No one I talked to about the election actually liked her; they just hated/feared Trump even more than they disliked her.

I know that many of her voters here did so with distaste, not because they really wanted her or current dem policies. The "fear Trump" messaging was effective with a lot of people. I have some friends and acquaintances who are still in a tizzy because he won; many people are sincerely terrified of him and think this actually is the beginning of the US going down the path of Nazi Germany.

So they cast a vote for her, but this should not be taken as an affirmation of support for her policies or current Dem party priorities. We are not "Hillaryland" down here in Baja AZ, that's for sure. I assume the feelings of voters are similar in other places.

With that map and the way some are spinning this, they are using how many votes she got to claim that more than half the country agrees with and prefers the democratic party's neoliberal democrats. That's just false. A good part of the populace doesn't even vote, and of those that do the outcome is very close to half on each side, but in this case especially, a think most votes were against the other candidate, more than for either of them.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

The choices are: vote against Stinker #1 or Stinker #2, or vote for someone who doesn't stink but has mathematically-indistinguishable-from-zero chance of winning.

Most people are natural "agin'ers", unfortunately.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Too bad( none of the above) vote wasn't a choice on election day.

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I live in California. We grow enough food to support ourselves AND to export to the rest of the nation. What would they do if WE shut down on THEM?

Nice try.

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Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.

Oldest Son Of A Sailor's picture

Have they really been using fracking waste water for irrigation?
Do you know what is in that waste water?

california drought.png

It might be shutting down on its own...

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"Do you realize the responsibility I carry?
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."

~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,

We can't fix angry stupidity from places who wish they were like us.

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Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.

if the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact makes the Electoral vote irrelevant. The President should represent every American equally. Someone in Wyoming should not be more represented by the President than I am in California. 1 person 1 vote. The Senate is the place for state's rights.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

You limit the possible outcomes.

Here is one, they find several instances of election rigging beyond doubt and several that look to be rigged but not beyond doubt. not enough to overturn the election results but enough to convince most people that Trump is a imposter and enough for the public to put pressure on republicans to stop the vote rigging, voter suppression and antics they use to influence election results. This would help the Green Party to achieve a larger percent of the vote share making it easier and less expensive to get ballot access in more states.

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Deja's picture

. . . put pressure on republicans to stop the vote rigging, voter suppression and antics they use to influence election results.

Were you taking an extended nap or vacation some place without internet during the primary? The Republicans didn't rig the primary, the Dems did. And, the best predictor of future behavior is recent, past behavior.

Sooo, I feel that if any votes were stolen, they were taken from Jill, by the Dems. Maybe to help Her Heinous win, but also to prevent the Greens from easier ballot access and funding next time around because so many burned Berners claimed they would be voting for Jill. Bernie's unexpected surge among millennials scared the shit out of Dem fat cats, so that sort of thing needs to be nipped in the bud.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

against Stein--if it did.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Deja's picture

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bondibox's picture

It's already been found that in 3 places in Wisconsin the total votes for president exceeded the number of voters. In each of those the votes had been padded for Trump. All it takes is for some highly partisan poll worker (imagine!) thinking they had to counter the Clinton corruption they had been warned about.
http://wbay.com/2016/11/22/discrepancies-in-unofficial-outagamie-county-...
http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/11/25/three-wisconsin-counties-just-admi...

The problem that we will always face regarding vote reform is the responsibility always rests upon the incumbent to fix the problem which he will inevitably see as a feature. If it's shown that enough hijinx occurred to create embarrassment on the incumbents then maybe we will actually see some reform.

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F the F'n D's

mouselander's picture

According to an article yesterday in The Guardian:

A growing number of academics and activists are calling for US authorities to fully audit or recount the 2016 presidential election vote in key battleground states, in case the results could have been skewed by foreign hackers.

The loose coalition, which is urging Hillary Clinton’s campaign to join its fight, is preparing to deliver a report detailing its concerns to congressional committee chairs and federal authorities early next week, according to two people involved.

The document, which is currently 18 pages long, focuses on concerns about the results in the states of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

“I’m interested in verifying the vote,” said Dr Barbara Simons, an adviser to the US election assistance commission and expert on electronic voting. “We need to have post-election ballot audits.” Simons is understood to have contributed analysis to the effort but declined to characterise the precise nature of her involvement.

A second group of analysts, led by the National Voting Rights Institute founder John Bonifaz and Professor Alex Halderman, the director of the University of Michigan’s center for computer security and society, is also taking part in the push for a review, and has been in contact with Simons.

... dozens of professors specialising in cybersecurity, defense, and elections have in the past two days signed an open letter to congressional leaders stating that they are “deeply troubled” by previous reports of foreign interference, and requesting swift action by lawmakers.

Besides these various "experts", I noticed that Greg Palast, who has been doing yeoman work on the issue of election fraud and hackable voting machines for well over a decade, is also touting the recount via Twitter.

So my question for you, Professor, is how is it that all these alleged experts, these smart people who one would think know what they're talking about, are recommending something that according to you is just a big waste of time? What is it that an anonymous poster on caucus99percent.com knows that they don't know? Or is it just a case of another group of sellouts who are in the till for Hill?

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inactive account

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

during the primary? There were some academics who came out against the fraud in the Democratic primary, but certainly not in these numbers.

Could it be that they only give a shit when their chosen candidate loses?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lunachickie's picture

during the Democratic primary and yet there is just now all this concern?

I'm not buyin' it. Full-stop. The whole thing stinks as presented, so they better find a different presentation.

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Meteor Man's picture

None of your scenarios describe treason in any way shape or form. I suggest you reevaluate your analysis and accept the obvious conclusion that Jill Stein's goal is election reform.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

And I have edited it out. My logic goes as follows: There is evidence, compelling evidence, that the Republicans stole the 2000 and 2004 elections, but there is no credible evidence that they stole the 2016 election. In fact, the Republican establishment publicly disavowed Trump. It stretches credibility that they would do so and then steal the election. Why then did they disavow Trump? To dilute suspicion?References to foreign tampering only came from pro Hillary forces - prior to the election, while the only evidence, the Dem primary, was that Hillary stole the primary. What then is more likely, that Trump stole the election, or that Hillary is trying to discredit the result?
Dr. Stein's attempt to trigger election reform is much more likely to support a whitewash, therefore I consider it foolish.

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On to Biden since 1973

It's a two-fer.

According to the Hillbots, this election is worth recounting because it was "foreign", i.e. Russian, interests who hacked this election.

What is most upsetting a substantial portion of TPTB right now is Trump's unwillingness to go to war with Russia. This recount effort is hoped to:

1) put HRC in the WH; and

2) provide a casus belli.

If a civil war doesn't come first.

This is very dangerous stuff, and it's a real disappointment that Stein is lending her name to this.

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Cassiodorus's picture

Clinton herself giving her blessings (or maybe just sneaking a few dollars in through the back door) to this effort, then.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

lunachickie's picture

if you're into believing this sort of thing--I never could understand how they always get started and go viral so quickly, but it is already alleged that The Great and Eeeevil George Soros is donating all the money, via an automated bot.

You know, that wouldn't be so far fetched. The technology to automate payments of any kind online certainly exists. Jill Stein couldn't raise more than a blip on the radar for the Greens before now; even buying ad space all over Facebook and Twitter, her "likes" were minimal, and non-existent compared to Bernie's. So how, all of a sudden, is she raising this kind of money?

There's a huge pile of bullshit and FAIL here somewhere. Either Stein was compromised or she's been compromised. I don't care how--I just want to see the donation patterns over a 24- or 48-hour period. Someone somewhere can see that much. Either the Green Party got a lot more votes and Stein is trying to uncover that--or Hillary and her bankrolls are lurking in the background and this is another attempt to steal the Presidency.

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TRUMP!!!!!!!!!! Boo!!!!!!!!!

Now that brainwashing effort is over (for now), while Trump's efforts continue. If you doubt the ability of the American people, and all World citizens, to raise huge amounts of money for a vital public interest, then you doubt our ability to free ourselves.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

lunachickie's picture

What manner of absurd hyperbole is this?

If you doubt the ability of the American people, and all World citizens, to raise huge amounts of money for a vital public interest, then you doubt our ability to free ourselves.

No. As usual, the "presenters" overdid it.

Man, where's that "Gong Show" gong when you really need it?

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has shifted it's gaze to this recount. Why?

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Beware the bullshit factories.

lunachickie's picture

you were obviously snarking up there a wee bit, weren'tcha?

Smile

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I donated to Sanders via Actblue. Then my Actblue account was charged recurring donations for the DCCC ( twice). Watch auto
payments for improper donations.

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THINK before you pay. Are you so busy and making so many payments you can't keep track of them? That's the road to bankruptcy.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

Either the Green Party got a lot more votes and Stein is trying to uncover that--or Hillary and her bankrolls are lurking in the background and this is another attempt to steal the Presidency.

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Hawkfish's picture

The amount of money flowing to this thing dwarfs anything the Stein/Baraka campaign has been able to accomplish fundingwise during the entire election cycle. Since Monday the total is pushing $5M. I look forward to tracking the larger contributors back to prior donations to get a sense of the demographics, but the data will not be available for a month at best.

My guess is that this got spread by various actors (including various surrogates) without anyone having to say a word.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

lunachickie's picture

The amount of money flowing to this thing dwarfs anything the Stein/Baraka campaign has been able to accomplish fundingwise during the entire election cycle. Since Monday the total is pushing $5M.

My guess to date is that there's not many "Demographics" behind this. Just one or two at the most, from the way-upper-income brackets.

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Hawkfish's picture

There was an article in the Intercept the other day arguing that Trump should back this to add legitimacy, but I don't know if anyone took up the call.

Trump had nearly as many reportable contributors as Clinton, but the average amounts were about 1/5 as large. So while the amount of cash from Clinton backers is almost certainly (as you say) larger, that doesn't mean that the demographics are that skewed. But we won't be able,to tell until he FEC reports come out next month.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

lunachickie's picture

hard to say.

Please. This shit should insult the intelligence of anyone who has been paying the least little bit of attention for the last year and a half....

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That there is "no credible evidence that they stole the 2016 election"

I don't recall who it was - election justice USA, etc - but I have read that someone who works the election/voting machine fraud issue believes that 4 senate seats were won by republicans that should have been won by democrats but for suspected election fraud.

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I wouldn't mind seeing the Congress be of the same party as the President. That way accomplishments and f**k-ups can be owned. Well no, I would mind, but I wouldn't rant about it on blogs. Exposing election fraud is a much more important subject.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

But seriously, when there's so much evidence that the Dems stole the 2016 election ALREADY by stealing the primary, evidence that none of these people seems the least bit interested in, is it any wonder I doubt their motives?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

our election systems are I don't care what other effects the recounts have on the results of the election. As far as I'm concerned we could replace Donald with Hillary and I'd still view the results of the election the same: a terrible occurrence that signals four years (at least) of further decline, increased corporate power, and sociopathic foreign policy. I literally couldn't care any less whether Donald or Hillary is POTUS.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

so far, it's Hillary who is known to have committed it, and this recount will likely put her in the White House, because I will eat my damned hat if Hillary is held accountable for any crime she might commit, including committing fraud in the general. Only Trump's fraud, if any, will be revealed. Hillary will be remade into the innocent victim of fraud and the champion of electoral justice (gack).

And there is one policy way in which they are different: Hillary is quite ready to take us into nuclear war.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0U0wGAlpgM]

Donald, not so much. That's why she keeps calling him a Russkie agent.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

I'm not convinced.

I'm also not convinced that her known sociopathic aggression in foreign policy (and domestic policy, wrt spying for that matter) is worse than Donald's completely unpredictable, hair-trigger-temper behavior. Different isn't worse.

What I am convinced of is that whichever of these demented clowns is in office, the nation is worse off for it, in roughly the same measure.

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lunachickie's picture

in the way, it's easy to be convincing. All you have to do is wonder who's going to question when the votes were actually cast?

All those blank ballots finally got filled out. You can fucking well bet they aren't bankrolling this so Her can LOSE again.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

they'd be auditing states where Hillary beat Trump narrowly as well as where Trump beat Hillary narrowly. It's obvious what this audit is aiming to accomplish.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lunachickie's picture

On reflection, it might be that they're intent on doing several things:

!) first and foremost, putting Clinton in the White House
2) "Proving" the "Integrity" of our electronic elections and how they were Used to Find Corruption (and see? They worked!!!!)
3) Stick it to the progressives that bailed on the Democrats by permanently destroying other party movements.

The third thing could take many forms--that's where Stein comes in. Knowingly or unknowingly, deliberately or stupidly, she's going to be the vehicle that helps them screw over all the real lefties that bailed on ol' Cankles during the primaries.

We haven't been properly punished. Yet.

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And there is one policy way in which they are different: Hillary is quite ready to take us into nuclear war.

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We all want a fair and accurate system. The people whom we vote for don't. Jill Stein is no different than what we already have.

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dance you monster's picture

After the recounts reveal tampering and the states are ceded to HRC, Jill reveals herself to have been the real Hillary all along (and a genuinely liberal one!), and all the appearances we thought were Hillary were really only the stand-ins that some claimed. Jill becomes President but all her Green voters don't trust her, nor do the denizens of TOP, nor do any of the neolibs of the Democratic Party. Chuck Schumer convinces Greens to fund another recount, in anticipation that he will then reveal himself as the real Donald Trump. The Donald Trump of orange hair fame is proved to have been a Muppet in an elaborate skit.

Why do we care what Jill's motives are in this? It's happening. No one here will stop it. Chill the F out, folks. This isn't a personal betrayal.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

that co-opts the fight for election justice the same way Hill et al have co-opted the fights for racial and gender justice. Gack!

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

That's exactly what I've been saying.

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On to Biden since 1973

not again. How many times do we have to have this argument?

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lunachickie's picture

The one where the woman who couldn't get arrested at Standing Rock is suddenly a fund-raising juggernaut?

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Deja's picture

We are family, after all. Smile

But I guess babysitting is not your forte lol.

Love ya man; the best to you and yours, and am delighted I'm not flying the plane! Biggrin

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MarilynW's picture

He talked to the NYTimes as if he had won in a landslide and has the support of at least ¾ of the American people. When he sees headlines (I don't think he reads beyond the headlines) about recounts it will give him pause. And that's a good thing.

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To thine own self be true.

is how fast 4.5 million dollars was raised from angry, non-billionaire citizens who are upset at our fraudulent election system. We have not yet begun to realize our power.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

Sandino's picture

The speed at which that money was raised does suggest that it is coming from Hillary's natural constituency, the 1%. That Jill is serving as a cutout for the Clinton campaign is blatant, but I think the Clinton gang's deep pockets and deeper denial is being cannily exploited by long-time Election Integrity experts to finally get a detailed examination of presidential election results. Jill has very little to use, and may win some affection from the math-illiterate Hillaroids who claim that Jill caused Trump's victory.

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Meteor Man's picture

The funds raised as of early Thursday reveal there is great grassroots support for an accurate audit and accounting to verify the presidential election results.

The top donation Stein’s website can take is $2,700 under federal campaign law.

http://www.alternet.org/its-starting-green-party-launches-fundraising-dr...

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

Hawkfish's picture

The limits there are $10k per party. The two states are not involved in the recount, but I can't find the link right now. One was MA IIRC.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

she can teach Stein how to use state parties for money-laundering purposes.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

noting that married couples can contribute $5400, it only takes a thousand households to get to $4.5 million.

which isn't me taking a position, just making an observation.

i won't be at all surprised to find that most of the donations are small-money from Hillary supporters who delusionally believe that she can only have lost by shenanigans, when i think it far more likely that Stein votes were stolen for Hillary than any other scenario.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

lunachickie's picture

you don't know a thing about automating ACH online Wink

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automating ACH online?

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Beware the bullshit factories.

lunachickie's picture

there is no fucking way "millions of grass-roots dollars" came out to be donated for this, inside of....what, three days?

Not from all the broke rubes in the country, has this happened.

One more time:

Follow the money first....

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I am all for exposing our corrupt election machinery and making a push for publicly hand-counted paper ballots. We can't even pretend to have a democracy until we eliminate computers from our elections.

Personally, I cannot believe that Stein received just 1% to 2% of the vote. Almost all Bernie supporters that I know, in addition to most of us on this site, would have never voted for HC after the primary, nor would they have voted for Trump. I believe the vast majority of us voted for Stein. I have seen some analyses that Stein should have received over 20% of the vote. Stein has a legitimate case to ask for a recount to put her over the 5% threshold. If an accurate recount is done (which is impossible with computerized systems), I am certain that the result would be that DT still won and Stein's votes were stolen by HC. After all, the biggest threat to the duopoly is the rise of a third party. I believe Stein was the party most adversely affected by election fraud.

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WindDancer13's picture

could benefit HRC? There are states that HRC (eg, CA, OR, WA) won that would have been more likely to vote for Stein than some of these rust belt states.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

Meteor Man's picture

"We unfortunately do not have mandatory audits in any of those states and most states in the country, and therefore we rely on machine counts on election night to tell who won and who lost a particular election. Any functioning democracy should involve the verification of the vote. That, in this case, involves a recount process,” he said. “The candidates who are on the ballot in Michigan and Wisconsin can call for the recount. In Pennsylvania, voter can, and it doesn’t have to be the runner-up candidate. Third-party candidates can call for the recounts in Michigan and Wisconsin. And three voters per county in Pennsylvania can call for them."

http://www.alternet.org/its-starting-green-party-launches-fundraising-dr...

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

Cachola's picture

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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

That is an excellent point. As a practical matter, it is most likely true that the funding is coming from the HC camp. Stein could not raise the money on her own for other recounts. Still, exposing election fraud, if it is even possible, would be a huge benefit to our purported democracy. Let's hope it is not at the cost of HC being put in office.

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The real isssue is not election fraud, but the public's respect for the integrity of the system. Now imagine what will happen if we have a recount and it "proves" that fraud occurred and nothing happens.

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On to Biden since 1973

That's why the main objective of the recounts may be to "validate" the fraudulent results. In recent recounts (WI, NH) that has been the result.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Why no audit there?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

WindDancer13's picture

that have a much smaller gap (eg, Maine and Nevada) than two of the states being recounted. Wonder what the difference is between the states chosen to be recounted...could it be the number of electoral votes and not the integrity of the election?

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

O.K., maybe Stein didn't get close to 20%, but here is a statistical analysis that she probably received at least 5%.:

https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/category/2016-election/

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lunachickie's picture

I believe Stein was the party most adversely affected by election fraud.

I'm sure she was, too, but there is no fucking way she's raised this much money in this short of time at this time of the fucking year from Regular Folk. She would have had a better turnout tapping into the Bernie angst when Bernie was still running.

Not only did she not really try to raise money to combat election fraud when Sanders was having the primary obviously stolen from him, don'tcha remember how Sanders never seemed to return Stein's alleged attempts at "outreach"?

I've been wondering about that for months now, it never made sense back then, but this all seems to have brought it a bit more in-focus...

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elenacarlena's picture

not running as a Democrat. Now votes may have been stolen from her, she has standing to sue and/or demand a recount. There were no votes stolen from her in the Democratic primary.

Sanders had standing. So did O'Malley, et al., if there might have been hanky panky while they were still in it. I wish Bern had demanded a recount, but instead he decided to support Hill.

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

lunachickie's picture

but that wasn't really my point, it was an attempt to illustrate my point that there's no possible way this is some kind of grassroots-supported campaign, and not this time of the year, in particular. Perhaps I did so badly?

Shorter luna:

Follow the money first.

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who just happens to have a crappy sense of strategy?

Could we all just take half a step back, and remember that Jill was nearly obsessed with the idea of finally getting the Greens past that magic 5%, so the Greens could be a well-funded party, and get on the debate stage next time? She got herself arrested during the last general for protesting her exclusion from the debates.

One of the very first detected large-scale computerized voter frauds was out in California, over a decade ago, wherein it was discovered that many votes were flipped from third parties to a major party candidate. This happened, and yet we need to find a Clinton / Trump reason for Jill to be contesting an election?

How about this to explain Dr. Stein's actions?

THIRD PARTIES KEEP GETTING FUCKED-OVER BY OUR RIGGED ELECTION SYSTEM. NOT JUST THIS TIME, BUT ALL THE TIME.

Maybe Jill Stein, like many of us, is tired of being screwed, and really, really, really wants to live in a DEMOCRATIC Republic again? Have we considered that possibility?

Or maybe even considered that she was trained as a Doctor? -And maybe wants to make this country healthy again?

I've been following this issue since '04, when Kerry lost Ohio and the "election" with a higher exit poll discrepancy than 4%. We tell other countries that they've had a fraudulent election with anything over 2% variance in the exit polls. And I must say, I've been bringing this up, every chance I get, ever since then, and I've been called names, had my sanity questioned, and been blown off, over and over and over. I put up a long rant about fraud in the Primary, back in bloody AUGUST http://caucus99percent.com/content/full-stop , to polite applause from very few eyeballs.

Maybe Jill has just reached the same point I was at months ago, and still am. This election system is WAY past the need for a tune-up. It needs to go under the hammer now. The election software needs to go into the trash compactor of history. The entirety of the computerized privatized opaque vote-stealing hardware needs to be run through the shredder and recycled. And we should replace it all with paper ballots and hand counts. The gold standard. The only way to be sure. Anyone standing staunchly in the way of that happening has a right to be as wrong as they want, but they are in fact helping the 1% to rob and control us.

This entire election should be a DO-OVER, without computerized equipment. And please don't tell me how impractical that is. REAL democratic countries do it, why can't we?

I know this is Thanksgiving weekend, but this is not a bloody football game. I don't care which awful "team" wins or loses. I want to find the assholes that keep changing the scoreboard to NOT reflect what happened in the game, and the media barkers that say it's the actual score, and the refs that agree with that. Until we can trust the people keeping score, there is no game. There is rigging and nothing else. There is only the illusion of a game.

Every one of you that says "Oh, look, I can accept the bogus score, because my team won!" is just contributing to the illusion.

-And our Lords and Masters thank you for your participation, BTW.

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"Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."
- John Maynard Keynes

Hillary would not allow any reform, just the opposite. And the odds are good that her lovely nuclear war would very quickly eliminate any future elections of any quality. Do you think your neighborhood would be spared in a nuclear war? Have you read the PNAC for Pete's sake? Read about The Family, Hillary's power-mad religious group? Much less followed what happened in the "Democratic" primary and convention?

War and greatly increased corruption is what Jill is fronting for. At best this shows Jill as a fool. She can't win, herself, all she can do is destroy the world.

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