A last response to the Clinton supporters
It's pretty clear that Trump sucks, as it was clear from the beginning of his campaign. What fuels his campaign today, for the most part, is the total blindness of Clinton supporters to the fact that Clinton also sucks, a blindness which these same supporters display in word and deed. If the Clinton supporters want to really do something for their candidate, not acting like they've got their heads in the sand about Clinton might be a productive first step.
"First vote for Clinton, then oppose her" is their best pitch -- the problem with this pitch, of course, is that the Clinton supporters don't back it up with their own behaviors, which renders it useless. It's also been pretty obvious for a long time that Clinton supporters are the sort of people who would vote for Franz von Papen if he ran with a (D) next to his name, given how far their heads are buried in the sand. So the sort of strategy that would render the Clinton supporters as rational people is one that it's too late to execute. You've got six days to be someone different, people -- now, go!
Comments
Very off-topic, Cass
but remind or tell your story of becoming politicized and proactive. I would be happy (you could just msg me).
It may be too much heat now in the final week of who-knows-what-will-transpire. Gives all plants a bad rep of doing that, transpiration. Why do i fear writing anything that might be judged coded?
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Oh, I've been politicized and proactive --
since I was an undergraduate at the University of California at Santa Cruz in the early 1980s. The problem of course is that UCSC politics isn't real politics, and for that matter any sort of undergraduate politics is always at best a searching for real politics in a world which has failed to find it. (Bernie was real politics only in a preliminary sense -- first he had to win the primary, which he didn't do (although really he did). There's no real politics in Clinton v. Trump -- it's all a bunch of phoney-baloney.) A further difficulty is that you can propose something proactive while at the same time nobody will listen to you or do what you think they ought to do in order to make a difference.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
"But I can fix Him/Her!!!!"
Said every co-dependent person ever...
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Why respond to them?
I have plenty of Clinton supporter friends.
Don't you?
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
I asked you first, so
no fair asking me a question without first
responding toanswering the question that I asked you.I did answer your question.
I have plenty of Clinton supporter friends.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
You responded to my post, but you did not answer my question.
That you have friends who support Clinton does not explain why you respond to their statements about voting for her.
My point is the same as one made by riverlover and crbngville down thread: it's a waste of time.
eta: Now, I'll answer your question: I have friends who profess to be voting for Clinton out of fear of Trump, although none who say they actually affirmatively support Clinton. I persuaded some of them to vote for Sanders in the primary, despite the "I don't want another McGovern nominee" shibboleth. However, I don't bother to make response after response to them about the general election.
The issue is this:
what would the world look like if a vote for Clinton were rational? What would its contours be? If you can engage that issue, you can avoid dismissing your friends.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
I have not been able to answer that question.
In my many discussions with friends, a Hillary voter usually falls into one of these categories:
1. Misinformed voter who lives on a diet of MSM and thinks Hillary is great.
2. Selective info voter who thinks Hillary is more experienced and Trump shouldnt even be on the same national stage as their candidate.
2. Party loyal voter who still believes the rhetoric about the Left (Good) vs Right (Bad).
3. Fear stricken voter who doesn't think Hillary is great, but feels a Trump Presidency would be the beginning of a fascist Hitler regime with an itchy nuclear trigger finger.
4. Disgruntled voter who doesn't think Hillary is great, but feels Trump is worse, and actually believes we will effect progressive change within a Hillary administration.
5. Anxious voter who doesn't think Hillary is great, but feels Trump is worse, and to make themselves feel better about how terrible Hillary is tell us that we will hold her feet to the fire and against her neoliberal policies.
6. Former Republican voter in upper income bracket who eschew Trump as a candidate and believe Hillary will protect their fiscal interests and portfolios.
Given the information we have about this election, the DNC, the Clintons, and the fourth estate, none of these seem rational.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
I have some Clintonites as friends
One was a pre-Sanders Sanders-supporter, and went with the nominee-flow after the Convention. I politely argue, and then argument goes off-course. She is still Hill. Even as fan blades are being bent.
Question is: post-election?
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
No!
#JillNotHill
Arguing with Hillbots/$hillary voters is a waste of time.
Yeah, but if Cass wants to write a diary like this
for one last time, I don't see the problem. Hell, I have a diary I'm thinking about writing about Hillary v Trump before the election. Get it out of our systems.
Thing is, it's true that in talking to Hillary supporters you're likely talking to the wall, but we've been talking to them for 30 years or so and it's a hard habit to break:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y_XdwLtHiU]
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
That may very well be true but you have to consider the fact
that a lot of people probably read that do not ever comment.
Some of those people may be on the fence about what to do as many of us were over the last few months.
If we can even reach one person with this diary than it is worthy of both being written and read.
Plus, a secondary bonus is that it really does help me too.
I am NOT comfortable with the decision I am making. Not in the slightest, but having so many other people out here logically explain the likely benfits of the course I am heading vs the downsides shores up my confidence that I am indeed making the right decision. (Even if it is only right for me so I can sleep at night knowing I did EVERYTHING I could to prevent the next war Clinton starts if she wins.)
I will not have any more blood on my hands, by proxy or not.
No more blood, no more war, no more oppression of the poor and disenfranchised, no more abuses against peaceful protestors and no more raping of our mother earth.
Those are my primary goals. I will never achieve them under Clinton.
Holding Clinton's 'feet to the fire" is likely to be as effective as herding cats.
With a water pistol...
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
""First vote for Clinton, then oppose her"
Is that the new "pass it then fix it" we heard after the public option got stripped out of obamacare? Yes, yes it is.
On that point, Obama was a bit worse: He actually ran for POTUS
on no individual mandate and a strong public option because the latter was, according to Obama himself, the ONLY way to control costs. Once elected, he did the opposite on both points. He also promise to fix his FISA vote after we elected him and made it worse.
Anyone telling us that we need to hold the feet of any POTUS to the fire really needs to tell us specifically how to do that because plenty of people wrote, called and emailed the White House and ALL their elected representatives again and again (twice weekly for me to the WH, my rep and my two Senators) about ACA and got nothing but insults and patronization from the White House. And, those who demonstrated in person peacefully, like Dr. Margaret Flowers, got thwarted or worse. Health care professionals even walked across country to the White House and got ignored. For that matter, he stood up the House Progressive Caucus, then stonewalled them until after the bill passed the Senate.
So, unless someone tells me something legal that was not attempted by anyone in connection with Obamacare AS TO SOMETHING HE EXPRESSLY RAN ON, he or she needs to stop fronting.
Quick answer: they won't do a damn thing
It's merely the words they use to soothe their cognitive dissonance at voting for a candidate that favors everything they oppose and vice versa. And even if they were serious they know in their guts damn well that there is no way to hold feet to fire short of not voting for the person.
So... "he or she needs to stop fronting."
(It wasn't a question.)
Right.
The argument isn't bad by itself -- it's bad in the context of the behaviors of the people making it.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
Jill before Hill ya'all! time
Jill before Hill ya'all! time to show them how they pissed us off and make them stutter in disbelief as the majority hits and Jill gets a massive run. I'm speaking of well more than that 5% of course if the whole deal was fair, she and even Johnson would have had better and more exposure so folks could vote based on better information!
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Lol, thereby leaving the
Lol, thereby leaving the Clintons sitting all lonely on top of their very own, carefully constructed at great expense, Bullshit Mountain, verbally nuking the remaining staff to avoid bearing the blame for their attitudes and behaviours themselves.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
You are so right
imagine being privy to THOSE conversations! And that is exactly what I hope to accomplish by voting for Stein. I can't hold out any hope of her winning, not after what we've seen. But I can make sure that Shillary knows she lost "her" vote out of me. And that gives me comfort, not a lot of comfort but enough to be able to look myself in the mirror and know I did not tacitly approve what she'll do to this world.
As for those who feel they must vote for her, I try with the ones I know but I'm not going to not be their friend anymore either. I know why they're doing it, I wish it were not so, but many just aren't ready to accept yet how corrupt this whole thing really is. Most of them have kids, and young ones at that. They aren't ready to think this whole shitting mess is going to come crashing down. And there are days I hate to be the one who reminds them of that painful fact. But I get my points in as best I can. And I know they are sick of hearing it too, but I can't stop myself either, so they have to put up with me like I have to put up with them!
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
The California plan to stop Hillary.
So California decided that Tulsi should be our VP, and Bernie our President. Those two are an allowable write-in in that state, and there are very active volunteers promoting this. Check it out here:
http://www.inquisitr.com/3666716/over-18-million-people-in-california-ca...
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