I Think I Learned Two Things in the Sixties
As a child of that past, living in New York no less, I had observed and digested the philosophical arguments as much as I could, and what I gleaned from people was:
The system is corrupt and ultimately self-defeating. It is a machine that will consume you and your young in its ever-ravenous and insatiable appetite for profit at all costs.
The second thing I learned from the Sixties:
Communism is a failed approach to economic management by government because there are no incentives for a person to improve the system.
The "hippies" (where, actually, did I get the message from? answer: the news, believe it or not) were the latest label for the radical left. They provided the first thing.
The "establishment" (school) provided the second.
I believe, faced with these two purported axioms, that there is a third way. I'm just not sure what that is, but we need it.
Comments
Checks and balances. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Things were better when we had powerful unions to counteract powerful businesses, and (reasonably) independent media to counteract the BS of government.
How we get back to all these influences counterbalancing each other, I don't know.
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It Takes People Putting Themselves On The Line
People who want better working conditions and powerful unions have to be willing to risk injury and death. Ford workers only won union rights through an incident known as the Battle of the Overpass. Ford attempted a coverup, and lied repeatedly that they were only "defending public property", but some photos of the injuries they caused that they couldn't quash revealed the lies, and Ford ended up accepting the UAW. Many union men took a severe beating, one suffered a broken back, and even the women who came along to hand out leaflets were attacked by the thugs - all on film.
This was all after the Wagner Act was passed, and after labor had won the right to organize.
It's exactly what Mario Savio meant when he said
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
I wouldn't say it's risking death at this point.
But I think that workers in Unions have to get back to risking what THEY have to increase what their fellow worker deserves. For instance, a very large multi-state Vending Company who has Union contracts in multiple locations with the same Union. In a small facility lets say the workers are asking for $.50 per hour raise each year for a three year contact. The Company only offers $.35 cents, which has been about the standard offer for the last 15 years. These guys (let's say) are making $15.00 per hour now. In larger bargaining units they are making more like $20.00 per hour but those workers won't hit the bricks for the guys making $15.00 per hour to help they get their $.50 cent per hour increase. This is what I believe HAS to change. Workers have to be willing to put it on the line for someone else because in the long run it will help them too. (Sorry, a little rant there. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.)
O.k. When is the next meeting for the revolution?
-FuturePassed on Sunday, November 25, 2018 10:22 p.m.
You make good points
Just remember how no one stood up for PATCO when attacked by Reagan. That became the model for corporations to break and control unions.
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
A ponder fer sure. Third way has already been taken as a
moniker for what it's not. It all feels like breaking new ground, not plow-broken within the last century, at least. TPTB want to grind us down. And they have for many, at least the ones asleep. Communication over the fiber lines gets wonky; FB is deleting stuff that H-friendly management does not like. Internet access fees will be the next divider, if my prognostications are correct.
40+ years, and we cannot yet agree on the garden to return to.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
You did not get this from the hippies.
Everybody was dropping out and living in communes. It might have been the culmination of the 50s when everyone had jobs and opportunity because the US was the powerhouse of innovation.
Everything is corrupt because everything is corrupt. I'm pretty sure it always was and always will be. What's different is the refusal to acknowledge it and work to control it. Thanks to the depression and FDR, we knew it as a nation and put laws in place. Thanks to time, memory failure, and Ronald Reagan, we reopened the box .
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
My opinion is that the USSR failed for 3 main reasons:
Corruption, with those in power using that power for selfish ends; failure to allow individuals to go into business to supply needs the state was over looking or couldn't supply; and the fact that the USSR cobbled together dozens of ethnic groups speaking dozens of languages who historically didn't get along and who resented imposed rule from Moscow.
There are other contributing factors, including external ones, certainly; but, I think these are the main ones.
"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"
While those are real reasons
I think the core problem is the same as capitalism: the sociopaths rise to the top.
everything is corrupt
Bluesee directly stated that (s)he got that from "the establishment".
-- Jewish Scriptures, Ecclesiastes 1 (KJV)
Looks like your point has been established for at least 3000 years!
Thereby ending a 50-year period where this country really was great.
This is the big problem with Donald Trump. He fails to understand that "the hair of the dog" is no fix for the malaise currently afflicting this country. We need to head back towards the New Deal, not further away from it.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
How has China so far managed to avoid the same death spiral?
Is it because in the mid-1980s the communist party under Deng Xiaoping started encouraging suitably inclined young people to go into business for themselves? Or is this a total myth?
Something like that
"Suitable inclined" seems to me to show a preference for connected officials with strong Party affiliations to be given these rights. When one strays too far over the line:
We should have a similar Sword of Damocles here in the West.
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
Heh. A far cry from the DOJ of Eric Holder and Lanny Breuer
Reminiscent of Rufus T. Firefly, the Groucho Marxist dictator of Duck Soup . . .
I almost used this
But I decided it was too close to reality. I think Groucho might be insulted and lead Freedonia to war against Sylvania.
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
What was called "incentive" actually meant "money"
that is, access, via private ownership, to wealth. There is no inherent upper limit to the amount of money/wealth a private individual can amass. But wealth does have to be secured by laws that guarantee private ownership (or simply seized by a dictator--but "we" weren't supposed to be living in a dictatorship!) That legal-thingy was the rub. The Soviet Union had money--the ruble--but had, at least as a foundational gesture, abolished private ownership. That was what was anathema to the western world, the abolition of private property as a founding principle of the state itself.
Capitalist propaganda had already acknowledged, in the sixties, that in a capitalist society money/property was the only acceptable motivation for anyone to do anything. Driving that message home here "at home" was the reason for decrying the communist world for its supposed "lack of initiative." In fact, "initiative" was lacking everywhere throughout the world because material wealth was all that could be achieved, there was in reality no good life on offer. Doctors, teachers, mothers, fathers--they all did what they did with their lives, so it was told, because of money.
My suspicion is that today, in a totally capitalized globe, there is still plenty of "lack of initiative" because, to put it simply, people just don't want to do what's on offer and are asking themselves whether any amount of monetary reward for their labor makes a lifetime devoted to what boils down to the pursuit of money worth living.
I think that a lot of our problem today can be traced back to corruption--corruption of power, corruption of material wealth--among the elites of the communist states. The allure of (western) materialism can turn a lot of heads and continues to do so. So for half a century the western capitalist world poured money in to West Berlin to put the glamor and glitz of money/property on constant display to surrounding people living under communism. They had to be made to feel how deprived they were, how much cooler life was in the west. And, eventually, they more or less bought it.
Communism in "half" the world was the only reason that any conditions improved at all in the western other half of the world.
"On the Media" is a show from NPR. My jaw almost dropped when I heard the first of their promised 5-part series on poverty in the US, "The Poverty Tour." It shows us, among other things, just how thoroughly we as a nation have been propagandized over the past several decades to accept the inherent goodness of private wealth even as we ourselves become poorer and more alienated.
Here's a link.
And for a critical--and IMO very important--assessment of what's happening in China today in terms of its mushrooming capitalization, I recommend any of Jia Zhangke's films, especially "Touch of Sin" from 2013.
The third way is coming, Bluesee. It's just slow--like glaciers, like history. - : )