Alas, Dr. Stein has lost my support with her VP pick.
I know this will be controversial, and I welcome the discussion. IMHO, the choice of Ajamu Baraka was stupid.
Why? Because it gave a quick terminating shot through the head of any slim chance that she might have had in this election.
Why? Because now the Green ticket has zero experience in governance, and the operation and use of U.S. Military apparatus.
Why is the latter so important? Because, as much as we (I presume most of us here) would like to see the U.S. Military scaled down to a rational size, and its use in foreign adventurism (read, in support of international monied interests) curtailed, to do so will take at least a rudimentary understanding of and experience with how that bureaucratic monstrosity operates, and will take at least a grudging respect from those in command. It would take many years and careful planning and leadership to finally take the US off of a permanent state-of-war standing.
Now, we have two good folks that have no Executive, Judicial Legislative or Military experience, who (seemingly) seriously seek the position to lead two of those branches explicitly and the other two implicitly, plus operate that most powerful and therefore dangerous military organization this planet has seen by an order of magnitude (or more).
Plus the choice of a racist demagogue (Baraka) insures no support from a wide spectrum of the public.
Why am I comfortable calling Baraka a “racist”, because he called me (a Sanders supporter) a racist, indeed, a “white supremacist”. Baraka is a one trick pony - his portfolio is far-and-away dominated by race issues. These are important issues, but they are in a spectrum of issues, and any leader of this nation must be facile with the full spectrum. But, the title of his blog “Black Agenda Report” is sobering, and will be as offensive to some as another might be with the title “White Agenda Report.” I don’t mind in the least folks having a discussion about the “Black Agenda”, but coming from a potential second in command of this nation, I must doubt the seriousness of someone presuming to represent all of these United States.
And frankly, there are bigger issues, existential issues. (And yes, to many many of our fellow citizens of color, racial issues are existential.) The melting of our democracy before our eyes (overt manipulation of the election and voting processes), and the literal melting down of our planet’s climate (reference to the melting and burning arctic clathrates in Siberia) are examples. These are immediate existential threats to America as a whole, and all living creatures aboard Earth. As much as Baraka railed against Sen. Sanders for his lack of attention to the “Black Agenda”, he gave him no credit at all for citing Climate Change as our biggest threat.
And finally, Mr. Baraka is dishonest. He has removed from his blog all of his railings against Sen. Sanders and his supporters, such as Cornel West - who he characterized as a dishonest “Democratic Sheepdog.” Fortunately, the inter-tubes have a memory. It was silly of Mr. Baraka to suppose he could hide from his own demagoguery.
Fortunately, I found out about Dr. Stein’s naiveté before I wasted too much money, and a whole lot of time on her already foundering candidacy.
Edited to remove erroneous statements. Apologies to Mr. Baraka, and those who were offended, and thanks for those who pointed out my errors.
Comments
In an environment where the
In an environment where the right and the far right completely dominate politics how are leftists ever suppose to get this experience you demand? I mean they actively block us from all political forums. They block us from elective office, from the committees, and from the media. I think your obsession with experience is a recipe for political stagnation. It is a deeply conservative position. You think we need stability in a time of crisis but ignore their role in creating the crisis. Crisis can't be solved by the people who created it.
The possible consequences of benign inexperience
Aren't nearly as bad as the consequences of evil experience. we need a huge shakeup from top to bottom and this is the only way to get it. A Jill Stein Presidency has the possibility of creating that huge change that Bernie was talking about and that is existentially necessary. The other candidates don't embody that promise and, through fealty to fossil fuel interests, may sentence us as a planet, to death.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Better someone who admits s
Better someone who admits s/he doesn't know much regarding foreign policy or (NOT the same thing) military areas and seeks sane advice from actual foreign policy experts in diplomacy, rather than from the military, (especially since nobody can know about everything and America is literally falling apart from 'austerity'/gross neglect while Americans are already drained and need to freaking well be placed before destructive and illegal military invasion and attack for the purpose of corporate empire building passed off as 'foreign policy',) than someone taking advice from Kissinger et al or from investors in the MIC to see how much personal profit he could gain from attacking/invading other people's countries and taking their stuff.
The US is supposed to be a democracy, not a military base. Other than a fascist-type state, what kind of political system places a military title, experience and position as essential for a Head of State and equal to or of more importance than their abilities in domestic areas?
Are there, perhaps, concerns about neighbouring Canada or Mexico marching armies over the borders or firing off missiles at the guys next door to them? And if so, is the problem with somebody needing meds or having problems with the meds they're on?
Who could possibly invade America to place the population at risk? The problem lies in the corporate/billionaire war profiteering and attempts at a global takeover - to which the solution involves stopping that and beginning to heal the world of what can be repaired of the damage already done - something a 'warhawk' will never do.
But wouldn't that be right up the Green's alley?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I'm Voting Green Because It Takes Away A Vote
from either of the 2 Known Corrupt Parties (Ds/Rs). Any vote for a D or R candidate is contributing to the continuation of corruption in the US Govt. The only way anything changes is to make D/R parties disintegrate.
Of course, IMO the majority of americans are brainless sheep. So I fully expect to see the corrupt duopoly drive the country into a banana republic -- it won't be long now.
PS. I could give a sh1+ about her VP pick. It's a ceremonial position with little/no power.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
Given our choices, it is as good a reason as any.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
ceremonial?
since 1900, 7 of 22 Veeps have become President, 5 of them by "ascension" to the vacant presidency (2 assassinations, 1 resignation, 2 natural deaths).
if Spiro Agnew hadn't been so very impeachably corrupt, he would have replaced Nixon. good lord.
i'm personally pissed off whenever any name is bandied about for Veep that wouldn't be a credible candidate for Prez. if HRC is elected and re-elected, there's a pretty good chance Tim Kaine will ascend to Prez, because there's a reasonable chance she'll just die of old age and bad health.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Hmm, BLM vs Climate Change
I'm not so sure that melting glaciers, rising sea levels, and rising global temperatures matter much to people who don't know if they'll survive playing in the park, driving home or to work, entering or just being in their own home, or walking back from the store with some skittles.
I guess it's a perspective thing.
That's the same kind of divisive identity politics
Clinton used to successfully smear Sanders as an out-of-touch old white dude bordering on white supremacy, instead of an elderly jew who himself has been a lifelong victim of the very racism weaponized against him.
What makes you think impoverished non-whites think less about literally having to choose between eating or rent on a given week than they do about whether some nutter with a hero complex is going to gun them down at night walking home with a bag of skittles?
The casual assertion that non-whites are monolithic and uniformly terrified of being murdered to the exclusion of other concerns is so laughably drenched with its own privilege and casual racism as to be itself shameful.
Great comment.
Identity politics is literally all they have, though, so we can expect to continue hearing how people who care about liberal causes are racists. Or sexists. Or both.
Twain Disciple
You're absolutely right (cough)
Trayvon was probably wondering how to stop climate change as he was being stalked and then murdered.
Fucking seriously?
Maybe we should ask others who have been systematically harassed for simply being black whether they spend more of their time/energy/thoughts on climate change or the bullshit they go through daily regarding racism.
And I'm sure you have all the money to comfortably take vacations and pay for healthcare, but a lot of us don't. Good for you. You have the privilege to comfortably sit around contemplating climate change, while the rest of us living in poverty contemplate what to do without so we can afford a $250 alternator (without tax or install) so we can get to our low-paying job.
And you have the high and mighty balls to call me a racist because I mentioned poor people? I said WE - meaning ME INCLUDED.
Either you don't know how to read, or you're a total asshole and can go fuck yourself!
Edit: My comment about WE poor people is below, to the OP, because her reply to this was misplaced.
I lived in majority-minority, impoverished neighborhoods
for most of my childhood. The rest of my childhood before that I lived in the trashiest white trash areas you ever saw.
I lived with a single parent mother who worked two or three jobs, was herself homeless immediately after my parents' divorce, and was with me and my brother close to homelessness on more than one occasion. But for charity and good fortune we'd have been on the street.
I lived around people in similar circumstances who are also not white. So I know a thing or two about poverty, racism, and white privilege.
The stuff you're saying is so oversimplified and ignorant that I had to respond to it. It's exactly the kind of crap someone interested in dividing people by race and playing Oppression Olympics would say. Hillary and her cult used it with great effect in the primary. It's sad to see it represented here.
I spoke from empathy and personal experience and I'm a Hillbot?
What the fuck ever. I'm tired of dealing with people like you. Condescending, holier-than-thou types who come around once in a while to look down their noses at people online. I guess it makes you feel better. That says a lot about you, actually.
I have to wake up in less than 6 hours to work in a non climate controlled warehouse. We have a heat advisory tomorrow. Then I get to drive home (westward) in a car with no a/c because that alternator didn't come in.
Enjoy your condescension. I'm sure it'll keep you cool, and certainly on that horse where you get to judge, but never be wrong about the intentions of others.
From Jill Stein
"His candid, unflinching perspectives on American exceptionalism, warmongering, and sanctioned violence against communities in the U.S. have engaged and furthered the debate worldwide. His dedication, core values and vision for a better world have never been compromised by political expediency or a perceived need to soft pedal his frontline perspective for professional or personal gain.
Those values include the baseline truth, made painfully obvious in recent years, that change cannot and will not come from the top and trickle down to the masses, but must instead originate with the people and in the communities most affected by the institutional and de facto barriers that obstruct their constitutionally guaranteed rights. As Ajamu says, “I have always worked to build autonomous political power among those most in need of change, because history clearly shows that it is only through their own agency that they can ensure their interests will be protected and advanced.”
Ajamu’s big-picture understanding will expand our effort to support and unify the many perspectives that have traditionally divided dissidents into separate camps despite their common foe - with an agenda that includes economic, social, environmental, racial, gender, indigenous and immigrant justice. “Injustice in any one arena bleeds into every other, ” he says. “You can’t fix the environment without addressing racial inequities or economic oppression. We must join forces and see that our particular interests dovetail with those of our neighbors even if the specifics may seem superficially unrelated.”
Ajamu’s life’s work has embodied the immortal words of Dr. Martin Luther King: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. I can think of no better choice to join me in this hour of unprecedented crisis, and I am therefore honored and excited that my running mate in the 2016 presidential election will be Ajamu Baraka: activist, writer, intellectual and organizer with a powerful voice, vision, and lifelong commitment to building the political revolution whose time has come."
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/290393-green...
Good point, but I said as much...
That to many citizens of color overt racism in our country is an existential issue. Perhaps it is a perspective thing.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Sorry, comment for Deja...
Gosh, Johnny, can we make that reply vs new comment button more clear (e.g., idiot proof ;->)?
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
You did
You said that, but to me it came across as kind of bleh, okay, so they're concerned about racism. My point is, it's hard to worry much about the polar ice caps when you don't know if you'll be killed by the cops or some distrustful asshole with a gun.
On that note, it's hard for poor people of all races to worry a lot about climate change when we're struggling to make ends meet. Climate change is real, but it's kind of like internal cancer. It's not in your face like racism and poverty. It gets the back burner to what's in our faces.
The long game and the short game are both important.
The implication that one is more important than the other is absurd. Both are necessary to the continuation of life, and both need immediate action.
“What the herd hates most is the one who thinks differently; it is not so much the opinion itself, but the audacity of wanting to think for themselves, something that they do not know how to do.”
-Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)
So someone who is harassed by cops daily
Or someone who has to decide whether to go without electricity or groceries for two weeks should be working to slow climate change? I'm thinking they're a little too busy trying to survive the short game to ever even be able to acknowledge the long game.
Short game makes the long game impossible to be addressed by people in poverty and dealing with violent, systemic racism.
Absurd, indeed!
Very true - but Jill supports
Very true - but Jill supports a living wage, as the corporate candidates don't. And actual democracy, including expecting police - paid by the public - to protect, rather than to harass, falsely arrest, beat or kill, citizens, as the corporate candidates don't. So, with Jill there's the potential of an assist both regarding the short and long games, also retaining the freedom of the internet which, like the concept of democracy, will be gone with the corporate coups of the TPP and other 'trade deals', with either of the corporate/billionaire candidates - or, come to that, quite likely the Libertarian.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
That's a silly reason not to support her
It's only one step removed from lesser-evilism.
You should ask yourself, who is running for president that represents your values?
For me the answer is ONLY Stein.
Lesser evil-ism… or lesser unqualification-ism...
Which is worse?
I feel that the ticket is unqualified. As is the "D" ticket. As is the "R" ticket.
Should I vote for the lesser un-qualified?
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Lesser evil is worse by far
There is no question in my mind.
It's another meta discussion, about the 'isms'...
I'm not voting for evil, period, lesser or otherwise. But for gawd's sake we need someone qualified to do the darned job!
It's about the philosophy of voting, not about the voting.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Being "qualified" is over-rated
No one is qualified for president except ex-presidents.
Secondly, being qualified generally means being part of the system. Which is the problem.
Neither Hillary nor Trump is
Neither Hillary nor Trump is qualified for any public office; worse, neither one respects democracy or has any concept of representing the people, both being 1%-ers themselves and thinking in the terms of those with whom they associate - 'me, me, me, greedy, greedy, greedy me, for whom everything is never enough!'
They're both textbook sociopaths/psychopaths, lie routinely and easily and do not keep bargains - how can they or anyone expect any sane foreign leaders to want to have to deal with them?
Jill may not be perfect and I'd obviously prefer Bernie for endless reasons, (including real experience in many essential areas) but barring a miracle there, she's the only possible alternative to inevitable and fatal disaster for not only America but the world.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I don't see why.
The rest of us don't really think of our votes as electing Jill Stein. Rather, we're doing this so that the Green Party can get more money and more publicity in the future. No, we don't think that Ajamu Baraka was the right choice either. Maybe it's what Jill Stein could get.
"the Democratic Party is not 'left'." -- Sabrina Salvati
Well, I guess it's about what we think our vote is for...
Is it strategic? Are we supposed to be voting 18 chess moves ahead, or are we supposed to say who we think should lead the nation?
Frankly, IMHO, it's a total mess this year, with no even marginally decent options; except write-in.
Sigh.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
What we think doesn't determine what our vote is for.
Rather, if Jill Stein can get the Green Party 5% of the vote, then the Green Party can get some FEC funding. If she can't, then they can't.
"the Democratic Party is not 'left'." -- Sabrina Salvati
it's an incredibly stupid pick, certain to
marginalize the ticket.
i'll vote for her nonetheless. the problem highlighted by her choice and your post is that the Green ticket remains an entirely symbolic construct. we'll know that some important line has been crossed come an election when both of the candidates on the ticket are qualified to hold the job; currently, neither really has the necessary experience. even in an era when the republicans have a penchant for throwing up extremely weak-sauce veep candidates (quayle and ye-gods-palin -- who to my knowledge is not competent to do any work of any kind), and even a wholly incompetent and unqualified prez candidate (bush ... and ... well, trump, i guess, though let's face it, the nomination of trump is something the party tried desperately to prevent), eventually the Greens will need to have candidates with real experience in government.
as to the military, i don't give a fuck. what we need, as much as anything else in a president, is someone who views the military as the tiresome, bloated threat to the republic -- and for that matter, western civilization -- that it has become over the last 50 years.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Cutting the military in half would still leave us with the
largest military on the globe. IF we are going to be the world's cop, then let's take capitalism to the nth. Privatize the whole damn thing and make it pay for itself.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I'll respond to you both...
Yes, it would be great to cut the budget in half (as long as we triple the VA budget). I dream of an 80% cut.
But this would be an extremely difficult and fraught thing to do. It could really only be done by someone with military experience, and the ability to galvanize huge public support.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Well, you'll have to count Her out, then...
Hillary could spin "Secretary of State" as "military experience", but you'll see pigs fly before you see her able to "galvanize huge public support" for anything beyond putting her war-mongering ass on the unemployment line.
And yet we're supposed to IGNORE mainsteam VP picks...
because they "don't Matter" according to the MSM, and they're only there to get some more votes...
Still the best choice among the options, Dr. Stein has my full support.
And as far as needing experience with the way the Military is used, hell no she doesn't need that. I'd be much more comfortable with a candidate who looks at the Pentagon and tells them flat out, "So, explain to me why we NEED all these bases and wars in plain, simple language. If you can't do that, you're bullshitting me."
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Well, I don't give a damn what is according to the MSM...
Dr. Stein, IMHO, needed to show that she was serious about getting this job, and that meant balancing her great philosophy with someone who knew how the system works.
What is this about, if you don't take the job you're applying for seriously?
DMW, you know how the Pentagon system works, if a plan for mass demobilization was demanded, the response would be a five year study that would devote 100,000 pages to 100 options that would all be far worse (by intent) than the status quo.
You know how hard it would be.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
I disagree completely.
The system is completely broken, and buying into it with a nice establishment pick which will push her right is the exact wrong move.
The job she's running for is far more than just a job with requirements. If it was, it would be easy to fire somebody who didn't do it right. As a result, the person we pick needs to be willing to challenge the system, not perpetuate this.
And I know the Pentagon and their stonewalling attempts. Which is why it too needs massive reform, which we will not get under anybody but a non-establishment candidate. Yes, they're good at hiding money, and playing the "We need more time" game. However, Dr. Stein seems to have the right idea from the start which is to not take any bullshit from the brass. She's adamant about ending the wars, and I know if the Pentagon was directly ordered to, they also have the ability to bring home the troops. Do they have the will to? That's a different matter, but I think there's enough non-fascists that a coup attempt would be unlikely to preserve the war. (Unless of course the R's and D's try to pull one, which is much more likely, but of course that's on THEM.)
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
But the problem is not an abstract one...
It's a real one. The real problem is to convince enough of the electorate to vote for someone who they think can get the job done, enough to overcome the obvious vote rigging.
Dr. Stein has guaranteed that she hasn't a chance to do that. What then is the purpose for running?
Others here have said it is to promote the growth of the GP. Another non-showing doesn't seem the best means.
Yes, the system is broken (in as far as it is supposed to be a democratic institution), but it is still functioning very will as a money trough as you say; and toward that end it is a very solid and well-oiled machine, and will take someone (IHMO) who knows the mechanisms to disassemble it without cataclysm.
As far as the R+D coup, I think you'd agree that that has already happened.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
I disagree again.
The argument seems to be, they've rigged the system, therefore change can only come within the system.
At this point, I'm not sure the system deserves to be saved. As it is, this election is already veering into illegitimacy. A strong showing by third parties completely dismissed by the mainstream corporate media and politicians just cements the image that peaceful change will be impossible.
I don't advocate for violent solutions, in fact I abhor them. But you have to be blind to not see it coming if we stay on the course we are on. When the Riot cops are called out for every petition for redresses, it's an awful sign. I at least know I did everything I could to avoid it by voting for third party and stating clearly and forcefully that what is happening is NOT what I envision America to be.
Plus I plan on getting much more involved with political parties outside the big 2 as soon as this election is over. Will I win? Probably not, but I always enjoyed handicap matches anyway.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Then your argument seems to be...
"It's hopeless."
Maybe.
I wonder.
That's largely why I started this uber-discussion.
Sen. Sanders certainly believed that change can only come from within the system, and that stands to reason; unless -as you allude - the system is torn down.
Since Sen. Sanders probably won the election, but was denied the victory, the system will apparently stop at no ends to prevent change.
And that does indeed leave us in a very bad place.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
I don't believe it's hopeless...
If I did, I'd probably be in the same boat as countless others of my veteran generation and just off myself.
I believe that the current system can be saved, but it requires immediate action, which the current crop of politicians are unwilling to make since they will lose money by doing so.
That may end up being on just the local level we manage to salvage good things, but I'll be damned if I go gentle into that good night.
Edit: Thank you for the civil and reasoned disagreement.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Thank you for the same.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Stein had many complaints made against her
last VP pick, too (again, mostly from not-Greens) "Why did she pick another woman" (for the sexists out there) "Why didn't she pick someone with executive elective, military, bla bla bla experience" "why did she pick a poor person" and on and on. Cheri Honkala , another human rights and anti-poverty activist was a fine choice, IMO, and broke barriers, just like this one does. The Greens are about to become officially an anti-capitalist, eco-socialist party (and they will definitely appear to be radical to the people who are used to the Vichy parties). The candidates will, then, obviously reflect that orientation.
Jill Stein didn't steal her party's nomination
And she hasn't lied about being reckless with national security and she doesn't get millions from Wall Street gamblers. Jill Stein doesn't have a huge, corrupt corporate media spewing lies and brainwashing for her and depriving people of the information they need for the future of their planet. Jill Stein has press conferences and is not secretive. Jill Stein has never wavered in her opposition to the Keystone pipeline and the TPP. Jill Stein is opposed to the for-profit Prison industry that Hillary (and Gary Johnson) have taken money from. Jill Stein is opposed to the immoral, profit over people, health insurance and pharmaceutical industries that Hillary takes money from. Jill Stein isn't above the law. Jill Stein avoids sickly sweet, propagandistic platitudes. Jill Stein doesn't extort loyalty and Jill Stein is empathetic and doesn't laugh and say shit like "We came, we saw, he died". Come on, really? Hillary is way more scarier for our future than Jill.
Beware the bullshit factories.
There is no argument against anything you say...
But through her VP pick, she has guaranteed that she and the GP won't be taken seriously (again in this cycle), by either the media or the public.
If she doesn't take the job seriously (which means making a serious effort to balance true progressive bone fides with a fundamental understanding of how hard the job is going to be) then what is the point? A vanity run, and thus a vanity vote?
Even to use the run as a "teachable moment" you have to be taken seriously. The choice of perhaps-not-as-overtly-progressive individual with serious executive and preferably military background - and there are some - would have shown that she and the GP have thought through what it would mean to actually win the goal for which they were apparently striving.
Why the obsession with the military experience? Because the public pays very close attention to that, and it is in fact, an extremely difficult and heavy responsibility to be in charge of that massive and massively dangerous machine. Would that it were not so, but it is.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
'Scuse me Zsaephod, but-
You keep coming back to this experience in Govt. / Military, but are we forgetting W already? One-term Gov. of Texas, the state with the part-time legislature, and then boom! -POTUS. Failed oil prospector, and cheerleader. Hardly what I'd call proper experience for the job. Quayle, Palin, Agnew? TRUMP, with his massive military experience? H.R. CLINTON, pinned down by imaginary snipers? Seriously? C'mon!
I think you may be underestimating a powerful force rising in the voting populace - sheer nauseated rage. That's what's driving my vote at this point. I wanted Bernie because I knew what he stood for, and that it would be good. Going with your concern, he had the most experience actually dealing with Congress, of any candidate. It could have been my first chance to EVER vote for an actual liberal in a major party. -And for the first time I was actually enthusiastic about an election. Actually started to relax for the first time since Obama's first weeks in office, before the disappointment set in. I spent my little bits of money and time for Bernie, where I could. And now to lose over hamfisted, up-front election fraud?
I already supported the BEST candidate; now I am down to what's left, and what's LEFT. -And if it hurts the Great Donkey, SWELL!
We have passed the point where I think careful consideration of experience and skill levels is relevant. Likewise with military experience. Even if we had candidates with decades of experience in military or government, if that is applied to staying our present course, we are all royally BONED. It is worthy of note that climate change is already taking more lives yearly than terrorism. -And just who has ANY experience dealing with that? Nobody in THIS country. Currently, I'm ready to vote for any non-sociopath /non-psychopath that I don't think will get us all killed immediately. I'll vote for somebody that will at least express an understanding of the challenge and threat posed by climate change, and a commitment to actually begin dealing with it. And Stein / Baraka would appear to fill that bill. -And nobody else does. Warts and all, I'm voting for them.
And as I've posted earlier, I think that if we don't put the binders on and fix our broken election system FIRST, it won't be more than a protest vote ANYWAY. But here I am, getting caught up again in pretending all of this matters, and that it won't be "adjusted" away, come November. Dang. Thanks for your comment, BTW.
"Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."
- John Maynard Keynes
Hi, it really is a meta-argument...
Some experience in Exec, Legislative, Military, and perhaps even Judicial, is necessary to convince enough of the public to go Green. But this VP pick makes it so bad that I'm not even convinced. But if there were any reasonable chance that the public would go along, I'd go along too. It's just that I don't think there's a chance (and even the most ardent Greens here don't think there's a chance, even before Baraka).
W is an interesting example. He was stupid and utterly incompetent, however Cheney was VERY smart and competent, and the staff around W was VERY smart and competent (read Rove), all in extremely evil ways, of course. Cheney and Rove new how the system worked intimately, and pulled/broke every lever they could get their hands on.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Jill hasn't lost my support, but
I'm side-eyeing her VP pick. Choosing a VP candidate out of grandstanding hardly ever ends well - ask Walter Mondale or Al Gore, both of whom tried to "make history" and blew it.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
IF grandstanding was her objective...then I agree
If it wasn't...if in fact she found him best of those available & willing with some sort of gravitas...then more power to her. I have a feeling there weren't oodles wanting to jump into that position who she would be willing to have.
When wealth rules, democracy dies.
Hoping that will change in the next 3 months
I'm hoping that will change in the next 3 months. And that a lot of people, including Bernie, will wish they had tried to get that position.
Beware the bullshit factories.
This is about building a progressive alternative
I do not honestly believe Jill Stein has any chance of being elected President this year - regardless of her pick for VP.
I believe she was trying to show a serious alliance with/support for BLM/anti-racist work with her VP choice. The failure to make major inroads with support from African American voters was a factor undercutting Bernie's success in the primary.
I applaud Jill for that effort. But in any case her VP choice is not a factor in my own decision to support Jill. I can not support either of the corporate owned war parties. The Greens are the strongest alternative. With a planet on the brink I believe in growing an alternative to the two party duopoly as essential for planetary survival. I am clear enough that Jill Stein and the Greens are a better alternative and will therefore support them as best I can.
EJF
I think several "blue" states are in play for Jill
States Bernie did particularly well in and that were shafted by the DNC / Hillary campaign. These include Washington, Rhode Island, Oregon, maybe Minnesota and Wyoming. Last I checked, Jill was at 6% in California, that will grow at the expense of the other 3 candidates. If we have Hillary forced on us, I at least want her to suffer the indignity of not getting 270 electoral votes and having to be appointed by the DemocRATlican Congress.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Ideology over Experience
Ok, I realize that Bolivia has only 11,000,000 people and 31 ethnicities plus mestizo culture... but Evo Morales was elected President with a 9th grade education and whose only experience in governance was being banned from the national legislature he was elected to... and he has been, by far, the most successful President of Bolivia in two hundred years of independence.
If you read the new Bolivian constitution (I have posted it numerous times) we created and passed during his first years in office, you will see that experience as a "movement" leader has been much more valuable than all the previous Presidents, all of whom could claim experience.
His ministerial appointments were often people from the indigenous community who had no "experience". Much of the neoliberal meritocraticy wailed and gnashed their teeth and ended up in jail or exile for decades of corruption. I don't know where he found the economics minister, he is white, has bug eyes that make him look like a space insect and terrible unpopular... but we have years of the highest economic growth in Latin America, and a highly noticeable betterment in standard of living and government service both locally and nationally.
Its enough for me that a candidate has the rock-solid ideology of doing the only viable option for global (and incidentally American) survival... disbanding about 80% of the military machine... AND confronting state/corporate racism head-on for a candidate to earn my support.
That being said, I am disappointed that Bernie, Tulsi and now Nina are sheep-dogging for an evil right-wing corporate fascist, and her fraudulent vote-stealing party. I am also greatly disappointed with the general Black community for supporting neo-liberal imperialists and their corporate/state racist policies. #BLM, which is inclusive enough to include Whites and Hispanics and Asians and Indigenous I see in their protests, and Black Agenda report have my support as some of the only national movements to confront institutionalized racism and imperialism head-on and directly in the only manner which is successful, non-violent protest.
So... I am thrilled that Brother Ajamu is candidate for VP, and Brother Cornel, the only Bernista publicly not sheep-dogging for corporatism, is supporting Socialist Alternative and Green.
Note: I prefer Worker's World Party, but thats another story...
Here is the
#Black Lives MatterMovement for Black Lives platform if you haven't read it yet: https://policy.m4bl.org/platform/Here is the Black is Back 19 point agenda:
http://www.blackisbackcoalition.org/national-black-political-agenda-for-...
From the Light House.
^^^This
One nitpick: It's not the BLM platform that you've linked to, Alex. It's from the Movement for Black Lives, which may have some members in common with BLM, but they are not the same.
"Military experience" is mostly responsible for fucking up the world. I'm happy to vote for candidates without any such experience.
Hasta la victoria siempre!
blaze
There is no justice in America, but it is the fight for justice that sustains you.
--Amiri Baraka
I think it can give perspective...
having served.
However, the minute you start drinking the koolaid and think that civilians are inferior cowards, it becomes a liability. Same applies to cops.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
thanks, DMW
I appreciate your response and your "however."
I was using a shorthand phrase that was unclear. I should have said "politicians who have never worn a uniform who claim their military experience will help in foreign policy decisions."
Better?
There is no justice in America, but it is the fight for justice that sustains you.
--Amiri Baraka
Much clearer...
Considering that their "Military Experience" has absolutely nothing to do with actually winning a war, and more about how to keep contractor's stock prices up...
It's kinda like having the Insurance Agent bragging about how he knows everything about Surgery because nobody performs one without his say so.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Thanks. Made an edit. NT
From the Light House.
I am not wild about VP pick,
I am not wild about VP pick, but it is just that a VP pick. They are chosen for balancing a ticket, in that sense the choice works. The chances of finding someone in the government who has military or foreign policy experience to run as a Green is zero to none. This would be same if Bernie won the Dem or Green nomination. This experience will come from cabinet choices. I have been impressed with Steins response on the Middle East fighting terrorism to trade in interviews.
The mood of the electorate is changing and their is a lack of trust for politicians that have come out the military industrial complex. Their is a rising desire for an outsider to question the existing mindset.
If we do not fund Stein's campaign there will not be any challenge to the BS from the MSM and Clinton campaign. This movement will die and the most corrupt political family in history will prevail. There is a BS article in the NYT on Stein winning the Green nomination and 90% of Sanders supporters going to Clinton. This is a prime example of the propaganda
they will use to marginalize the left.
Now is the time to fight, I am because I have not seen a perfect candidate in the past fifty years. This year I have seen the worst candidates nominated by the two major parties, because of their corruption and loss of purpose.
Dr. Stein has cemented my support for Greens by her VP pick!
First post here.
I thank Bernie for showing me that there was a better way.
I don't regret having contributed to Bernie's campaign as I knew that he had very little chance of making it all the way. I contributed so that his message of oligarchy and the greed, fraud and abuse of Wall Street got publicity.
As many of you, I then found that Jill Stein not only embraced Bernie's values but Green party took them to their logical conclusion.
When she selected Ajamu Baraka, I was intrigued as I had not heard of him before. I have had a wonderful time researching Mr. Ajamu Baraka.
Very impressed that Ajamu Baraka actually agreed to be on the ticket with Jill Stein as he is more of an activist agitating against the establishment.
I don't agree that you need to know how to shoot in order to advocate for gun control. The military is supposed to under 'civilian' control- no requirement for 'experience'.
Here are a couple of videos that convinced me that Ajamu Baraka was a person whose values I wholeheartedly shared:
https://youtu.be/AuQPseNPDpU
We need Jill Stein and Ajamu Baraka on the debate stage to advocate for the 99% and the voiceless!
Cheers
I am impressed.
What if this country could hear that speech from a debate platform?
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Injecting Radical Politics into the Machinery: Ajamu Baraka
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Injecting-Radical-Politics-into-th...
EJF
Ajamu Baraka VP Jill Stein Green Party Presidential Convention
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rICKtn8YcfE
EJF
On choices
I don't think Ajamu was her first choice given we know both Bernie & Nina did not want to leave their party. How many choices do you think Jill had? hmmmm I have a feeling she picked the best one available and willing.
As to experience: once again we are looking at people already aligned with one of the two dominant parties aren't we? So...if by some odd quirk Jill won the presidency she'd have to rely on advisors...just like Obama and most of those who came before including the General ...Dwight D. Eisenhower.
Then we get to the nitty gritty of why many are supporting her run. Real dialog in the public sphere about what matters...hoping for a 15% to get in a debate that probably won't be held as neither Clinton nor Trump seem keen on it. ....but most important try to get the Green Party into the 5% on polls to get that federal monetary help. Democracy requires voices and different perspectives. Jill will give us that if she can be heard above the noise of the corporate driven MSM. .
When wealth rules, democracy dies.
I keep hammering away at this.
Come on, folks. Do you have anything better to do with your vote?
"the Democratic Party is not 'left'." -- Sabrina Salvati
Props to you for keeping the lines that you edited out with
strike-throughs. I like to see the evolution of your thoughts as you interacted with commenters.
See Jill Stein's speech regarding wars for oil here, http://caucus99percent.com/content/video-news-open-thread-jill-hill-trum...
Tell me that's not the most knowledgeable summary of the history of our misadventures in the Middle East.
I think of her like I thought of Barack Obama (who also had no foreign policy experience): They are the kind of smart people who know the limitations of their smarts and are not insecure about it. They will appoint smart people to guide them. But Jill has a long history of standing up for what is right. She will take the stance she truly believes in, and then figure out the practicalities with her military advisors.
Nobody knows everything. Those smart enough to know what they don't know can do well making decisions in any field. Because they're not afraid to appoint the smartest experts and are willing to ask lots of questions. I believe that would be Jill.
The arrogant R and D choices, OTOH, won't listen to anybody because they both strike me as insecure and more bombastic than truly intelligent.
As for her VP pick, I think it was to head off any "white privilege" nonsense. Remember all the racist crap attributed to Bernie? And some say climate change isn't as important as civil rights? So she picks a civil rights expert. Smart strategically for attracting minority support.
Yes, he commented negatively about Bernie supporters. That's me too. But he was talking about the lack of protest over Bernie's Middle East policies, and if you read the entire article at Counterpunch, he's correct. We don't need to send the Saudis into the mess in the Middle East. We need, as Jill says, a peace offensive.
I hadn't really looked into Middle East issues during the primaries. I expected Bernie to be better, i.e., more peaceful, than Hillary. That's as far as I went. Jill is opening my eyes that we need to go a lot farther. Her VP pick pretty much states the same.
Surely you agree that it's not OK to bomb civilians? Even Gary Johnson admits that our actions in the Middle East have made things worse. So much for military experience. All those experienced people creating a massive murderous foul-up. How much worse can inexperience be?
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Thanks...
It's actually an interesting stirred-up hornets' nest.
I think what I wrote, in haste, anger and frustration (all bad moods in which to post), are my final resignation to the fact that there's no chance in this cycle for real change at the highest level of our government (at least for the better), and every chance for change for the worse - if not catastrophically worse.
I had labored under the illusion that Dr. Stein would thoughtfully try to inherit the movement that Sen. Sanders had begun, that offered (IMHO) one last chance to make a difference, and make an honest and serious play for the Sanders supporters and independent-minded folks that cannot stand either HRC or Der Drumph. I fear she did not do that. That serious play would entail a demonstrable respect for the magnitude of the challenge. Believing in good things (like not wanting to bomb people) is not sufficient. A thorough understanding of the underlying causes, and the historical paving of the current circumstances is necessary, as is a very thorough understanding and respect for the various systems that would have to be worked deftly to implement change.
The heart of the challenge, IMHO, is the one that Sen. Sanders very thoroughly addressed (but then abandoned, when it was clear that the election was stolen from him) is the corruption (and now overt illegality) of the political system.
My points about the military side of the equation can be summarized thusly:
* I feel that the general public will demand some experience and perspective in that regard from the presidential team.
* I feel that some experience with the DOD system is necessary to undertake the necessary reforms.
* I feel that that same experience is necessary to receive the respect and thereby the cooperation of the top brass.
Per the latter point, being imbedded in a large government agency, I have seen reformers time and time again attain a position of power, determined to make changes that challenge the status quo and established empires. By and large they fail, because they don't understand the workings of the system, and they don't command the respect of those being commanded. Those individuals are dismissed as 'not one of us.'
Of course I believe that what the US is doing in the ME, and elsewhere around the world (and has been doing for many decades) is immoral and outrageous, but Sen. Sanders was right - as a first step toward disengagement - to ask those nations in the ME to fight their own damned civil and sectarian wars. That is a centrist point of view that the vast majority of Americans could support.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
JILL STEIN & AJAMU BARAKA PRESS CONFERENCE 8/6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-fd-8BobFA&feature=share
EJF
A subreddit for supporting Ajamu Baraka
https://www.reddit.com/r/AjamuBaraka/
EJF
Ima vote for Trump.
No half ass for me
Not the best first impression...
Just FYI.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Is that a threat?
Sorry not gonna half ass it
No, but you should elucidate a bit more than just...
a six word snippet.
If you're voting for him, some reasons other than just "Hillary is Bad" would be appreciated. It would be interesting to know why you've chosen to support someone like that.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Black Agenda Report is not disturbing to me
in the same way that Black Lives Matter is also not disturbing to me. There is some context and important reason for it.
Love is my religion.
This makes sense only if you thought Stein would be the next
POTUS. If you expect her to lose, her VP choice is irrelevant. I am voting for her because I refuse to vote for a candidate I consider evil and I want the vote counters to get that. Also, Sanders' run means, among other things, that there is not enough time to do better than Stein before November.
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