Would be great with Bernie almost certain to be included in the debates. I read earlier that Jill offered Bernie the top of the ticket. Wish the FBI could reach some conclusions.
Was Senator Sanders' tone and what he did not say.
His tone was iron-firm, defiant, almost angry.
And what he did not say or even imply:
* That he supports Sec. Clinton's candidacy
* That he is giving up his quest for the Presidency
I believe he gave as strong a presentation as he could without jeopardizing his position in the D. party prior to the convention. I think he pushed it pretty hard in fact, saying nothing positive about HRC.
He is staying positioned so that he must be the candidate when:
* The election fraud is revealed (unlikely to be in time)
* The FBI hands up a recommendation for prosecution (highly likely IMHO).
Cheers!
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The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Is there any indication that Bernie would endorse Hillary and/or join the opposition? I'm not inside his head so obviously can't know what he's thinking, but nothing he's said or done so far leads me to believe he will do either of those things.
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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep." ~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it." ~Caitlin Johnstone
When he joins the fear mongering, the scare tactics to ensure we defeat Trump as job number one, and we must stay within the democratic party, how is that not endorsing Hillary in all but name?
for NOT endorsing Hillary, but staying in the race, since he polls best against Trump, and can take his independent base. It is hard to tell if everyone who keeps forgetting that is just suffering memory loss, or is interested in divisive purity patrolling. Ultimately the assumption that that is an endorsement of Hillary rests on the acceptance that she is the nominee, which is not yet the case. I wonder if this site has reached David Brock's notice yet.
I'm just calling out this vapid pearl-clutching as counterproductive and uninformed in the extreme, and suggesting the possibility that it is intentionally disruptive/counterproductive. I may be wrong, in which case I hope my comments will lead the innocent but misguided to get a grip on themselves, and lead the readers to understand the dangers of prematurely collapsing into bitter self-pity. If I am not wrong, then I am providing push back and helping readers see through the disruptive attack.
Did no one see Bernie's speech? Everyone was waiting for concession and endorsement, and of course a lot of people didn't listen and attacked him for that before it was even streamed. That is a political strategy that also played out when AP called it for Clinton on the eve of the CA primary. Bernie made a campaign speech meant to sway the superdelegates. If it were a concession, why did the hillaroids freak out so badly? It was a ransom list that the Clinton gang will never meet. It was a campaign speech stuck in the slot the machine had prepared for his concession. I thought it was smart politics, and the eagerness of some of his 'supporters' to see this as a concession or endorsement is at best stupid, and at worst a political disruption operation. Either way, I'm standing up to it. I welcome reasoned counter arguments, as opposed to the list of bland truisms downthread.
I wish MODERATION were more specific. I thought referring to 'bland truisms' as such was the infraction, but I guess the point of tone policing is that there are no specifics, just a need to assert authority, and possibly create the 'paper' trail that will make it easier to summarily execute me in the future. And now that I have 'been warned' I will presumably be intimidated into silence or some kind of other style which I hope doesn't seem 'insulting'.
Having been told to watch myself by none other than the person or people posting as 'Denise Oliver Velez' on dailyhos, I find myself unimpressed. I mean, I have been kicked out of a lot more authoritarian places than this!
but if David Brock hasn't already noticed this site--or, more likely, an employee of an employee of an employee of David Brock has noticed this site--I'll eat my hat.
Besides which, I've seen similar divison, fighting, distrust, flamewars, on Twitter among Bernie supporters. Apparently somebody somewhere has decided we can't be left to our devices.
The problem with infiltration is the left hasn't, in 45 years, come up with a good set of countermeasures for it. The cure is worse than the disease, and accomplishes the same things: division, distrust, conflicts that lead to no good outputs.
Getting to know people IRL, more closely than people generally do these days, is a good prophylactic, but not, obviously 100% effective.
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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The friend sharing your bed was a police agent? This scenario is not an isolated case. To this day victims are still in the dark about what all is in their files
I mean what I said--it helps a lot to know people IRL and develop long-term alliances, friendships, and communities.
I love the Net, but it's a petri dish for the security state. It's a very friendly technology to infiltration, because nobody knows you're a dog on the Internet.
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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
with the way things are going. He is obviously under a ton of pressure and is trying to be as strategic as possible. Part of his planning relates to his fall-back position and the desire to maintain his influence in the Senate. He won't go into full opposition mode unless he absolutely needs too.
Unless Clinton is indicted, Bernie will probably endorse her. But I think it's important to see it for what it is. No one is obligated to follow his lead.
Personally, the bigger issue for me isn't the endorsement. It's how he uses his donor and e-mail lists. I would like to see him continue to support Berniecrats downballot and use his influence to get some allies elected. Ultimately, however, it isn't about him as much as it is about what we want and are willing to work for.
and now he's a Democratic pol. He's been 'talked' too by the head asshole's who run and own this party and is not going to cause them grief. Why not Bernie? Why knuckle under to these rat bastards who mean us all harm? The platform is a joke and pumping the narrative that this is democracy is a joke. Just like every other Dem. pol who bills themselves as 'progressive' he has sheep dogged the strays back to the fold. hope his supporters do not listen to his fear riddled bs. how can he expect anyone to believe that the Democratic party can be infiltrated or 'reformed' it is what it is and it's not democratic. So where does that leave all the millions who called for a bottom up political revolution? Right we gotta defeat The Hairball and continue the revolution by 'influencing' the irredeemable anti-democratic Democratic party. Thanks for the ride Bernie. It is up to us to 'Don't follow leaders and watch the parking meters'. I do think Bernie is a man of integrity and principle but perhaps he has thrown his lot into the snake pit that's now the Democratic party. Why?
and made a credible challenge against the anointed nominee has caused party leaders significant grief. His refusal to simply fall in line months ago has created tension. He is doing this too as someone who is seen as a kind of illegitimate Democrat from the beginning by most members of the party leadership.
I think the fact that his earliest supporter, Raul Grijalva has flipped to Clinton, is an indication of the tremendous pressure that his people are under right now.
I also don't really see his "fear riddled" messaging. The closest that you might get is his statement that "Donald Trump will never be president". That's pretty tepid. On balance he has run the most positive campaign of any major candidate this cycle.
And I won't be surprised if he does all you say. But he hasn't done it yet.
That said, the system has a hundred ways to turn a principled change agent into a sheepdog.
However, most of us are not sheep.
We've been talking for a while about whether or not we will have to go on without Bernie, because he can only take us so far. I would be OK with leaving Bernie behind--with no hard feelings, really--EXCEPT for the extremely disingenuous idea he's pushing that down-ballot races can create power for us, or even be won in large enough numbers, in the current atmosphere of election fraud. That's the point at which he becomes a genuine sheepdog and uses his influence for ill, rather than for good. He becomes another political heat sink/storm drain safely carrying away the public's anger and energy.
But this has not happened yet. I won't be surprised if/when it does, but I'm more interested in what we do.
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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It is good that a regular stream of posters keep questioning when he will betray them. I figure once the concern trolls vanish, he will no longer considered be a threat to the Clinton machine. So this one line essay is very encouraging.
Sander's movement-building is more effective than ever, as he turns to the practical action of generating Progressive candidates for all levels of government nationwide. See
that this is a very effective strategy b/c a lot of people (not trolls) ARE genuinely concerned, and afraid. The co-optation moment is hovering up there like Schrodinger's Cat--alive? dead? we don't know! what will happen/has happened? we don't know!--
Is the light at the end of the tunnel an oncoming train? People are frightened, angry, and have no work (no work associated w/the movement) to occupy them--so we all keep scratching at the scab.
So, like the best trolling, there's a lot of real-world sincere camouflage in the persons of activists who are just worrying at their own wounds.
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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
a. it doesn't matter what we're saying, Bernie will do whatever he does
b. we hope he continues talking about what's important
c. some are worried that he'll campaign for her
that's not trollish, that's wondering what he'll do.
Also, our team of Admin and Mods (like me) are quite capable of moderating these threads; so, please, refrain from slinging around accusations of trolling, just because you disagree with others views.
If anyone has a serious complaint, please use the 'Contact Us' drop down menu to contact Admin, or Mods, for assistance.
Another reminder--this is a nonpartisan site.
We do not officially endorse any candidates. As long as discourse is civil and well-reasoned, all members should feel free to express their opinions/views.
He could have thrown up his hands in disgust and retired to Vermont and grandchildren and pension. He did not. But he made a political decision to run inside the system, and attempt to applecart the Democratic Party. He opened the curtains, very dirty backstage. And the Party played their hand by election fraud and voter disenfranchisement. He still has those last two demonstrably true things to carry to the Convention. Will he throw those cards?
No one can play 11-dimensional chess. But he might be playing 4-dimensional chess. Time will tell. There are rips in the tent, and leaks in the plumbing. Awake liberals are on to the fix. Other not-so-liberal awake Americans are as well. Tick, drip, tick, drip.
Sorry to go from cards to chess, dumb analogies.
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are still out there, that could throw a monkey wrench into everyone's plans.
Besides Hilary's possible indictments, what if Trump isn't the Rep.nominee??? It is still possible for the Republicans to manage to dump Trump and nominate someone who will certainly draw the R.s currently navigating to Hillary, Someone whom she polls worse against.
Bernie is doing everything he can at the moment to push against the system without totally alienating the superdelegates he will need. I also like Bernie's idea of holding a rally in FDR park the day before the convention. A show of strength, anyone?
with my niece yesterday. She was a very early and rabid trump supporter but a republican first and foremost. Her enthusiasm for trump is waning. She thinks he wants a way out and even she is wanting the repubs to put in someone to beat clinton. If they put Ryan or someone who appears somewhat sane in as their nominee, someone their base can rally behind, clinton will be toast.
He's never tried to take over the Democratic Party before. Ripping back the curtain will be good. He's already been the most effective democratic socialist politician in U.S. history. He adores and is an expert on Eugene V. Debs, who tried the third party route to power. He may just know what he's doing and certainly deserves the chance to try the way that seems best to him from his vantage point. Corbyn is following a similar approach.
I'm fine with being the minority here on this point. Bernie is not naive or a sellout.
He is smart and has integrity AND knows the DC cesspool. We don't know an iota of what he knows about the inside game that is churning now.
He ran the past year at enormous cost and continues to display his enormous conviction and courage.
He might end up endorsing Hillary. If he does, I'm still with him. I trust him to know what he is doing. He wants practical end results and to get there, compromises will happen. He is not a sell-out but he also isn't rigid when it comes to maneuvering in DC.
So what if he gives her his lists? I just mark stuff from her and the DNC as spam and haven't seen their crap in my inbox in months. If he had won, we'd want her lists and we'd want her to endorse him. Keeping it real....
is that it will make a great many of his supporters mad. Giving someone's personal information to someone they distrust is a breach of trust for a lot of people.
As far as I'm concerned, she can have the lists and welcome--much good will she get out of them, or anyone in her camp.
As far as Bernie goes, I trust him more than some people on here, but not nearly as much as you do. The last time I even came close to trusting someone like you do above was John Kerry, and it didn't work out.
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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'm waiting to see what happens. Anyone who tells you they know the outcome is full of themselves. There are too many variables...Assange, Gossifer(?), Snowden, Comey, ....
Five weeks is eternity in politics. Let's be patient and see what happens before we jerk out knees out of socket,
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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
And wait for events to unfold. The Establishment has made a major reveal of their methods and mentality, and it isn't pretty. But Sen. Sanders can talk about none of it… yet. He has to play the D machine the way it wants to be played, and wait for his opportunity. In a way, he has cornered the party, with their own malfeasance. Those here that expect and or want for Sen. Sanders to rant and rave about the fraud and corruption of the D's would have him blow the game, because even if he just breathed a word about "Election Fraud" he'd be effectively and instantly red-carded. He has to wait for the events and variables you name to play their way out, and they will. It will be very interesting, and chaos will ensue. But as the Chinese proverb says "In Chaos lies Opportunity."
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The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Obviously something is stopping him from talking honestly about election fraud--maybe for very good political reasons, maybe even for political reasons I'd understand and support-- but if he doesn't talk about it at the Convention at the latest, his movement will fall apart. Even I won't stick with him if he tells us all to work our butts off on downballot races without at least acknowledging election fraud.
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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
in some real-world, boots-on-the-ground ways in various states -- by which I mean I keep seeing reporting of (for example) ongoing counts in CA, investigations in various states. (I see this reporting mostly as offlinks fro K4S or B4P reddits).
When the primaries were ongoing, we saw that when Bernie or his surrogates spoke up in a timely way about these offenses, The Opponents used that as attack-fodder, calling Bernie/Berners whiny-babies or sore losers and otherwise putting out messages that diminished the value and importance of the election fraud and treated votes as unimportant things that only whiny losers would care about.
Effective action is being taken around the election fraud, and you're free to take that up as your main cause of action, if you want.
And he recited it with vehemence. I cannot disagree with your point of view, but it is one housed in conjecture. Sure, prepare your walking plan, based on a supposed course he might take, mine might not be dissimilar. But, Sanders' history has not been one of caving and compromise. I personally expect fireworks, lots and lots of impressive fireworks. He must certainly recognize that the movement he has created is seminal, but fragile, and the opportunity and imperative for change this year is great. He must also recognize where he is in his career - I expect him to make a big move and not to go quietly into the night - why should he? The visceral force of his talk on Thursday indicated to me strong plans. I will wait for them to unfold, and will not in my own mind discount his life-long demonstrated persistence and commitment.
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The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
identity politics, and that if Bernie caves, we walk away unscathed. Maybe bruised. They are still trying to convince themselves that we will settle. Nuh-unh.
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There was definite evidence of election fraud in Florida in 2000 and after the SC gave the election to Bush, many members of congress got up and told Gore about it, yet he sat there with a bored look on his face.
And they made sure that Ohio was close enough for Bush to steal the election and Kerry had promised to fight against the fraud, yet he too rolled over.
Why did they both accept that? I think that it doesn't matter who runs for president, once they get into office, whatever they campaigned on wont happen.
It could be called CT to believe that there is a deep state that is running not only this country but the world.
We know about the Bilderburg group, The trilateral commission, The council on foreign relations, and we know that there are very powerful people in them.
Now we have seen this election blatantly stolen by millions being kicked off the voting rolls, their part affiliations switched and the difference between the exit polls and the vote tally.
Remember the look on Obama's face after he had a meeting with Bush? And he was over heard saying "don't you remember what happened to Kennedy?"
And they killed Kennedy in front of us with at least 3 bullets from different directions, yet the Warren commission came up with the magic bullet theory.
So I can believe that Bernie is being threatened not to talk about election fraud.
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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Comments
#NeverHillaryOrTrump
Jill Stein 2016!
When I was a kid, Republicans used to red scare people, now it's the Democrats. I am getting too damn old for this crap!
Green Party
Would be great with Bernie almost certain to be included in the debates. I read earlier that Jill offered Bernie the top of the ticket. Wish the FBI could reach some conclusions.
Independence Day
Is today.
Often celebrated on July 4th.
I think most telling...
Was Senator Sanders' tone and what he did not say.
His tone was iron-firm, defiant, almost angry.
And what he did not say or even imply:
* That he supports Sec. Clinton's candidacy
* That he is giving up his quest for the Presidency
I believe he gave as strong a presentation as he could without jeopardizing his position in the D. party prior to the convention. I think he pushed it pretty hard in fact, saying nothing positive about HRC.
He is staying positioned so that he must be the candidate when:
* The election fraud is revealed (unlikely to be in time)
* The FBI hands up a recommendation for prosecution (highly likely IMHO).
Cheers!
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Indictment is likely
Or at least the recommendation.
Would that. nt
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
Chin up until July, TD
Stay the course.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
He is on a fence
No doubt. The Democrats may redeem themselves but I prefer burning the establishment down.
He has a plan
Is there any indication that Bernie would endorse Hillary and/or join the opposition? I'm not inside his head so obviously can't know what he's thinking, but nothing he's said or done so far leads me to believe he will do either of those things.
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
When he joins the fear
When he joins the fear mongering, the scare tactics to ensure we defeat Trump as job number one, and we must stay within the democratic party, how is that not endorsing Hillary in all but name?
The Trump card has always been his code
for NOT endorsing Hillary, but staying in the race, since he polls best against Trump, and can take his independent base. It is hard to tell if everyone who keeps forgetting that is just suffering memory loss, or is interested in divisive purity patrolling. Ultimately the assumption that that is an endorsement of Hillary rests on the acceptance that she is the nominee, which is not yet the case. I wonder if this site has reached David Brock's notice yet.
I might have been too polite to you downthread
but your last sentence is pretty bad....no, I'm still being too polite to you.
No need to be nice
I'm just calling out this vapid pearl-clutching as counterproductive and uninformed in the extreme, and suggesting the possibility that it is intentionally disruptive/counterproductive. I may be wrong, in which case I hope my comments will lead the innocent but misguided to get a grip on themselves, and lead the readers to understand the dangers of prematurely collapsing into bitter self-pity. If I am not wrong, then I am providing push back and helping readers see through the disruptive attack.
Did no one see Bernie's speech? Everyone was waiting for concession and endorsement, and of course a lot of people didn't listen and attacked him for that before it was even streamed. That is a political strategy that also played out when AP called it for Clinton on the eve of the CA primary. Bernie made a campaign speech meant to sway the superdelegates. If it were a concession, why did the hillaroids freak out so badly? It was a ransom list that the Clinton gang will never meet. It was a campaign speech stuck in the slot the machine had prepared for his concession. I thought it was smart politics, and the eagerness of some of his 'supporters' to see this as a concession or endorsement is at best stupid, and at worst a political disruption operation. Either way, I'm standing up to it. I welcome reasoned counter arguments, as opposed to the list of bland truisms downthread.
Moderation: this discussion style is insulting. Rein it in. n/t
?
"vapid pearl clutching" calls for moderation?
The entire second paragraph is worthy of consideration as Is all of the first except that phrase, IMHO
Dig within. There lies the wellspring of all good. Ever dig and it will ever flow
Marcus Aurelius
Thank you
I wish MODERATION were more specific. I thought referring to 'bland truisms' as such was the infraction, but I guess the point of tone policing is that there are no specifics, just a need to assert authority, and possibly create the 'paper' trail that will make it easier to summarily execute me in the future. And now that I have 'been warned' I will presumably be intimidated into silence or some kind of other style which I hope doesn't seem 'insulting'.
Having been told to watch myself by none other than the person or people posting as 'Denise Oliver Velez' on dailyhos, I find myself unimpressed. I mean, I have been kicked out of a lot more authoritarian places than this!
?
"vapid pearl clutching" calls for moderation?
The entire second paragraph is worthy of consideration as Is all of the first except that phrase, IMHO
Dig within. There lies the wellspring of all good. Ever dig and it will ever flow
Marcus Aurelius
Witch-hunts are pointless and counterproductive
but if David Brock hasn't already noticed this site--or, more likely, an employee of an employee of an employee of David Brock has noticed this site--I'll eat my hat.
Besides which, I've seen similar divison, fighting, distrust, flamewars, on Twitter among Bernie supporters. Apparently somebody somewhere has decided we can't be left to our devices.
The problem with infiltration is the left hasn't, in 45 years, come up with a good set of countermeasures for it. The cure is worse than the disease, and accomplishes the same things: division, distrust, conflicts that lead to no good outputs.
Getting to know people IRL, more closely than people generally do these days, is a good prophylactic, but not, obviously 100% effective.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
U.K. police informers even have long-term romantic relationships
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Kennedy_%28police_officer%29
So
would, as was probably your ironic intent, be a gross understatement.
Here’s an article (in German) about similar things happening in Germany.
http://taz.de/Polizeispitzel-in-linker-Szene/%215234937/
I'm being ironic--yet at the same time,
I mean what I said--it helps a lot to know people IRL and develop long-term alliances, friendships, and communities.
I love the Net, but it's a petri dish for the security state. It's a very friendly technology to infiltration, because nobody knows you're a dog on the Internet.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I don't get the sense that he is particularly happy . . .
with the way things are going. He is obviously under a ton of pressure and is trying to be as strategic as possible. Part of his planning relates to his fall-back position and the desire to maintain his influence in the Senate. He won't go into full opposition mode unless he absolutely needs too.
Unless Clinton is indicted, Bernie will probably endorse her. But I think it's important to see it for what it is. No one is obligated to follow his lead.
Personally, the bigger issue for me isn't the endorsement. It's how he uses his donor and e-mail lists. I would like to see him continue to support Berniecrats downballot and use his influence to get some allies elected. Ultimately, however, it isn't about him as much as it is about what we want and are willing to work for.
He is a pol
and now he's a Democratic pol. He's been 'talked' too by the head asshole's who run and own this party and is not going to cause them grief. Why not Bernie? Why knuckle under to these rat bastards who mean us all harm? The platform is a joke and pumping the narrative that this is democracy is a joke. Just like every other Dem. pol who bills themselves as 'progressive' he has sheep dogged the strays back to the fold. hope his supporters do not listen to his fear riddled bs. how can he expect anyone to believe that the Democratic party can be infiltrated or 'reformed' it is what it is and it's not democratic. So where does that leave all the millions who called for a bottom up political revolution? Right we gotta defeat The Hairball and continue the revolution by 'influencing' the irredeemable anti-democratic Democratic party. Thanks for the ride Bernie. It is up to us to 'Don't follow leaders and watch the parking meters'. I do think Bernie is a man of integrity and principle but perhaps he has thrown his lot into the snake pit that's now the Democratic party. Why?
The simple fact that he ran . . .
and made a credible challenge against the anointed nominee has caused party leaders significant grief. His refusal to simply fall in line months ago has created tension. He is doing this too as someone who is seen as a kind of illegitimate Democrat from the beginning by most members of the party leadership.
I think the fact that his earliest supporter, Raul Grijalva has flipped to Clinton, is an indication of the tremendous pressure that his people are under right now.
I also don't really see his "fear riddled" messaging. The closest that you might get is his statement that "Donald Trump will never be president". That's pretty tepid. On balance he has run the most positive campaign of any major candidate this cycle.
i would say that this is the direction he appears to be going
And I won't be surprised if he does all you say. But he hasn't done it yet.
That said, the system has a hundred ways to turn a principled change agent into a sheepdog.
However, most of us are not sheep.
We've been talking for a while about whether or not we will have to go on without Bernie, because he can only take us so far. I would be OK with leaving Bernie behind--with no hard feelings, really--EXCEPT for the extremely disingenuous idea he's pushing that down-ballot races can create power for us, or even be won in large enough numbers, in the current atmosphere of election fraud. That's the point at which he becomes a genuine sheepdog and uses his influence for ill, rather than for good. He becomes another political heat sink/storm drain safely carrying away the public's anger and energy.
But this has not happened yet. I won't be surprised if/when it does, but I'm more interested in what we do.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Thanks for your concern
It is good that a regular stream of posters keep questioning when he will betray them. I figure once the concern trolls vanish, he will no longer considered be a threat to the Clinton machine. So this one line essay is very encouraging.
A variant on the 'Sanders irrelevant' meme?
Sander's movement-building is more effective than ever, as he turns to the practical action of generating Progressive candidates for all levels of government nationwide. See
http://theprogressivewing.com/a-saturday-morning-tpw-news-roundup-open-t...
The problem is
that this is a very effective strategy b/c a lot of people (not trolls) ARE genuinely concerned, and afraid. The co-optation moment is hovering up there like Schrodinger's Cat--alive? dead? we don't know! what will happen/has happened? we don't know!--
Is the light at the end of the tunnel an oncoming train? People are frightened, angry, and have no work (no work associated w/the movement) to occupy them--so we all keep scratching at the scab.
So, like the best trolling, there's a lot of real-world sincere camouflage in the persons of activists who are just worrying at their own wounds.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
you might be a little too quick to call people trolls
a. it doesn't matter what we're saying, Bernie will do whatever he does
b. we hope he continues talking about what's important
c. some are worried that he'll campaign for her
that's not trollish, that's wondering what he'll do.
Just wondering what he'll do...
right, nice inflammatory title for that. This is classic concern trolling, even if the author is not actually a troll.
Thank you , Shah, for making those points. BTW, a friendly
reminder to Everyone--all views are welcome here.
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Thanks.
Mollie
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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Bernie has been a politician's politician for decades.
He could have thrown up his hands in disgust and retired to Vermont and grandchildren and pension. He did not. But he made a political decision to run inside the system, and attempt to applecart the Democratic Party. He opened the curtains, very dirty backstage. And the Party played their hand by election fraud and voter disenfranchisement. He still has those last two demonstrably true things to carry to the Convention. Will he throw those cards?
No one can play 11-dimensional chess. But he might be playing 4-dimensional chess. Time will tell. There are rips in the tent, and leaks in the plumbing. Awake liberals are on to the fix. Other not-so-liberal awake Americans are as well. Tick, drip, tick, drip.
Sorry to go from cards to chess, dumb analogies.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Too many What Ifs
are still out there, that could throw a monkey wrench into everyone's plans.
Besides Hilary's possible indictments, what if Trump isn't the Rep.nominee??? It is still possible for the Republicans to manage to dump Trump and nominate someone who will certainly draw the R.s currently navigating to Hillary, Someone whom she polls worse against.
Bernie is doing everything he can at the moment to push against the system without totally alienating the superdelegates he will need. I also like Bernie's idea of holding a rally in FDR park the day before the convention. A show of strength, anyone?
I talked
with my niece yesterday. She was a very early and rabid trump supporter but a republican first and foremost. Her enthusiasm for trump is waning. She thinks he wants a way out and even she is wanting the repubs to put in someone to beat clinton. If they put Ryan or someone who appears somewhat sane in as their nominee, someone their base can rally behind, clinton will be toast.
How about we give Bernie a chance? That's what I'm doing.
He's never tried to take over the Democratic Party before. Ripping back the curtain will be good. He's already been the most effective democratic socialist politician in U.S. history. He adores and is an expert on Eugene V. Debs, who tried the third party route to power. He may just know what he's doing and certainly deserves the chance to try the way that seems best to him from his vantage point. Corbyn is following a similar approach.
I'm fine with being the minority here on this point. Bernie is not naive or a sellout.
I trust Bernie
He is smart and has integrity AND knows the DC cesspool. We don't know an iota of what he knows about the inside game that is churning now.
He ran the past year at enormous cost and continues to display his enormous conviction and courage.
He might end up endorsing Hillary. If he does, I'm still with him. I trust him to know what he is doing. He wants practical end results and to get there, compromises will happen. He is not a sell-out but he also isn't rigid when it comes to maneuvering in DC.
So what if he gives her his lists? I just mark stuff from her and the DNC as spam and haven't seen their crap in my inbox in months. If he had won, we'd want her lists and we'd want her to endorse him. Keeping it real....
The main problem w/him giving her the lists
is that it will make a great many of his supporters mad. Giving someone's personal information to someone they distrust is a breach of trust for a lot of people.
As far as I'm concerned, she can have the lists and welcome--much good will she get out of them, or anyone in her camp.
As far as Bernie goes, I trust him more than some people on here, but not nearly as much as you do. The last time I even came close to trusting someone like you do above was John Kerry, and it didn't work out.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Enigmatic
Senator Sanders.
Is for the 99%. Right?
Not him, US!
The better question is "what are you going to do now?"
Dig within. There lies the wellspring of all good. Ever dig and it will ever flow
Marcus Aurelius
Not him, US!
The better question is "what are you going to do now?"
Dig within. There lies the wellspring of all good. Ever dig and it will ever flow
Marcus Aurelius
What will we do?
I'm waiting to see what happens. Anyone who tells you they know the outcome is full of themselves. There are too many variables...Assange, Gossifer(?), Snowden, Comey, ....
Five weeks is eternity in politics. Let's be patient and see what happens before we jerk out knees out of socket,
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Exactly, stay calm, and carry on...
And wait for events to unfold. The Establishment has made a major reveal of their methods and mentality, and it isn't pretty. But Sen. Sanders can talk about none of it… yet. He has to play the D machine the way it wants to be played, and wait for his opportunity. In a way, he has cornered the party, with their own malfeasance. Those here that expect and or want for Sen. Sanders to rant and rave about the fraud and corruption of the D's would have him blow the game, because even if he just breathed a word about "Election Fraud" he'd be effectively and instantly red-carded. He has to wait for the events and variables you name to play their way out, and they will. It will be very interesting, and chaos will ensue. But as the Chinese proverb says "In Chaos lies Opportunity."
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Here's the problem:
Obviously something is stopping him from talking honestly about election fraud--maybe for very good political reasons, maybe even for political reasons I'd understand and support-- but if he doesn't talk about it at the Convention at the latest, his movement will fall apart. Even I won't stick with him if he tells us all to work our butts off on downballot races without at least acknowledging election fraud.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
CStS - From what I read, the election fraud is being handled
in some real-world, boots-on-the-ground ways in various states -- by which I mean I keep seeing reporting of (for example) ongoing counts in CA, investigations in various states. (I see this reporting mostly as offlinks fro K4S or B4P reddits).
When the primaries were ongoing, we saw that when Bernie or his surrogates spoke up in a timely way about these offenses, The Opponents used that as attack-fodder, calling Bernie/Berners whiny-babies or sore losers and otherwise putting out messages that diminished the value and importance of the election fraud and treated votes as unimportant things that only whiny losers would care about.
Effective action is being taken around the election fraud, and you're free to take that up as your main cause of action, if you want.
Thursday's laundry list was long….
And he recited it with vehemence. I cannot disagree with your point of view, but it is one housed in conjecture. Sure, prepare your walking plan, based on a supposed course he might take, mine might not be dissimilar. But, Sanders' history has not been one of caving and compromise. I personally expect fireworks, lots and lots of impressive fireworks. He must certainly recognize that the movement he has created is seminal, but fragile, and the opportunity and imperative for change this year is great. He must also recognize where he is in his career - I expect him to make a big move and not to go quietly into the night - why should he? The visceral force of his talk on Thursday indicated to me strong plans. I will wait for them to unfold, and will not in my own mind discount his life-long demonstrated persistence and commitment.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
PTB fear but do not recognize that Bernie's campaign is not
identity politics, and that if Bernie caves, we walk away unscathed. Maybe bruised. They are still trying to convince themselves that we will settle. Nuh-unh.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
I made this comment before in another diary
There was definite evidence of election fraud in Florida in 2000 and after the SC gave the election to Bush, many members of congress got up and told Gore about it, yet he sat there with a bored look on his face.
And they made sure that Ohio was close enough for Bush to steal the election and Kerry had promised to fight against the fraud, yet he too rolled over.
Why did they both accept that? I think that it doesn't matter who runs for president, once they get into office, whatever they campaigned on wont happen.
It could be called CT to believe that there is a deep state that is running not only this country but the world.
We know about the Bilderburg group, The trilateral commission, The council on foreign relations, and we know that there are very powerful people in them.
Now we have seen this election blatantly stolen by millions being kicked off the voting rolls, their part affiliations switched and the difference between the exit polls and the vote tally.
Remember the look on Obama's face after he had a meeting with Bush? And he was over heard saying "don't you remember what happened to Kennedy?"
And they killed Kennedy in front of us with at least 3 bullets from different directions, yet the Warren commission came up with the magic bullet theory.
So I can believe that Bernie is being threatened not to talk about election fraud.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Voting is like driving with a toy steering wheel.
"In Chaos Lies Opportunity"
FBI is not a partisan organization. The Clintons are corrupt.
Set. Match.