Some final thoughts

I joined here a couple of weeks ago -- after 10 often rough years on Daily Kos, and intense disappointment at just how off-putting that site had become. I tried to tamp down over-heated reactionaries and as a result, I endured accusations of being racist, anti-Arab colonial Zionist, pro-Arab anti-Semite, being a neo-con, a neo-lib, and a delusional free-stuff loving Clinton-hating sexist misogynist. But, I stuck with it, despite a meltdown or two banging out replies to people who had really crossed the lines of decency.

Then, the March 15 edict came down, and that site became unrecognizable. Despite some still really excellent content from front-page folks like Meteor Blades and Adam B, and community contributors like Tom P (with whom I shared the journey from supporting Edwards to being a devotee of the Sanders revolution), the site had become insanely hostile on both sides and it was impossible to have any dialogue with anyone. I began spending huge swaths of time away from the site -- like even a whole day or two, which, for me, was a huge swath of time.

Frankly, I was way too busy campaigning for Sanders to care, but did keep returning to try and fight the good fight there. But, I got a short-time out for accusing a new contributor of being a shill as he claimed to be a former Bernie supporter, but didn't start posting until he had fallen for Clinton. It was soon clear to me that I had been an asshole -- and I apologized when my privileges were restored. But, a few weeks later, I briefly questioned the bona fides of someone who purported to be a Bernie Sanders Nevada delegate who had written very critically of the behavior of Sanders' delegates (frankly, there was some deeply regrettable conduct) and praising the lady who ran the thing (ridiculous). Since it was his first diary, I challenged his contention that he was a long-time lurker and wondered about the reason for posting. When I say brief -- I mean one coment. But the guy responded to a number of people questioning his veracity to ask him anything. I wrote that i had been a poll-watcher in Nevada, and asked where he'd caucused. I was wondering if I'd be able to support his claim, if by any chance he was at a site I was at. Unlikely, but not impossible. Anyway, I was in Vegas, and he wrote that he was in a rural site. I had nothing to add so I left the discussion. Someone accused me of trying to doxx the guy - I didn't see that comment until I got a notice that I'd been suspended for three months. Again, I had been an asshole -- but, in my defense, it was tough weekend for lots of us -- but I didn't do what I had been accused of -- trying to elicit personally identifying information. My entreaties to have that suspension reconsidered were ignored. I took the hint that people like me weren't really wanted there, which I confrimed by watching the hateful anti-Sanders screeds drivel were up and down the Wreck List.

On the flip side of that coin, I was witnessing many of the Sanders supporters I'd worked with post all over Facebook what seemed to me to be delusional posts about plans to run as a independent, about pending indictments for Clinton, about vote-stealing, and other fantastical conspiracy talk that ignored the knowable facts before them. I was kinda desparate for measured, thoughtful discussion and planning for the future after this election. I didn't see any prospect of constructive dialogue in the Sanders Facebook groups. So, I thought I'd give this site a try.

With that in mind, I really want to thank you all for the 'welcome' I have received here. It has me really longing for that other site, and anxious for my 3 month time out to end.

People who don't know me and know nothing about my offline existence keep challenging things I say about my personal life. In addition, when I post a comment or an essay, I'm regularly accused of being a shill or a troll.

What am I guilty of? Well, despite working my ass to try and win votes for Bernie Sanders, without any pay (and actually at considerable personal investment of time and money), and being chosen as a delegate to represent the people in my district who voted for Sanders, I have tried to argue what Bernie has been saying all along -- that, to have a chance at winning or even just changing the debate, progressives have to run in the party, not out of it. Also, I've echoed Sanders' pledge that we must defeat Donald Trump and the GOP. Finally, today, I was guilty of writing that President Obama made a powerful statement today.

I plead guilty to having written all those things. Proudly so. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but respecting my right to express my views is something I do expect. Even those who seem to defend my right to express my views criticize me for "telling people what to think." Apparently, I'm also guilty of not signalling that I'm just expressing my opinion -- admittedly espressed in earnest terms because I'm really worried about what happens if we see a repeat of 2000 (and, frankly, because I think it will also piss away a real chance to change the aprty and its policies in years to come). Not that I've seen anyone do that. It's normally understood that is what we're doing, but I guess if you write something that is at odds with the majoritarian consensus here, you're guilty of telling people what to think. Of course I am. That's the point. I see tremendous opportunity in the years ahead, but it requires working with people who remain in the party. So, I am, in fact, trying to change the thinking of people who claim to be determined to walk away from the party and never come back. I am not telling anyone off -- rather, I am urging them to stay open to continuing the effort that Sanders has begun within the party. But, I am certainly being told off.

There's nothing more dangerous than those in politics who close themselves off to opposing views and who demonize those who express them.

Even if the people who do that happen to right on the issues (and being as closed off as all that, they don't even accept being tested on that), not being open to working with others is antithetical to democracy.

Saying you're the real democratic folks doesn't make it so. It just sounds like you're interested in majoritarianism but only if you get to be the majority. That ain't a commitment to democracy, which is an ongoing process -- and a work in progress.

I certainly didn't get everything I wanted out of this race -- but it has opened my eyes both to the possibilities and to the hard work that needs to be done in the months and years to come. One problem I have with busters is that not only are they going on about how they want to carve themselves off from the body politic, every sign I see is that they will not get off ther devices long enough to do the unprecedented legwork needed in creating a viable 3rd Party. They'll sit at their screens and cheer if it materializes, but democracy doesn't happen that way. What I find ironic about that is that it seems to me patently obvious that it will be far easier to take control of the Democratic Party. Yeah, we came up short, but we came amazingly close. Trying to win elections from outside this party (and there's not much point in electing an independent Presidential candidate who doesn't have a constituency and allies in the legislature) will be much harder. That's the reason Sanders decided to run in the party.

We threw our weight behind Sanders, and we did magnificently. Far better than we had a right to expect. We have changed the dialogue on issues AND process. Whether you believe it or not, all the evidence is that even a lot of Beltway insiders are cheered by that. They may claim to be pragmatic about what they can get done, but most of them got into politics hoping to get a lot more done. More to the point, regardless of what happens inside the Beltway bubble, there were a lot of Clinton supporters who want action on climate change, campaign finance, economic inequality, social and racial justice. For whatever reasons -- and they probably varied from voter to voter -- they chose to support Clinton, but that doesn't change their support for the same issues we're concerned about. Now, we have a choice. To my mind, the choice that's emerging can be expressed thusly: We can sit it out, wait and hope that eventually a majority finds its way to people who have wilfully given the finger to the process now; or we can continue participate in the process as we did over the last year, working with others and recruiting allies among those who want our support.

I believe in that. I believe in the Sanders effort -- both in terms of changing the process and absolutely about changing policy.

However, I have no desire to participate in a site where the commenters persist in accusing me of lying about my role in the campaign and calling me a troll. You don't want me here? Congratulations. The Bolsheviks have suppressed another dissenting view, and you didn't need a gulag to do it. Of course, you'll scorn what I've written and make fun of the Bolshevik reference. More's the pity, because either you don't see where you're headed, or you don't see the problem there. I may be wrong about a lot of things, but at least, I know I'm not an asshole, and I refuse to let myself become one.

---------------------------------- Update -----------------------------

I appreciate the comments from those who are saying the behavior I've witnessed is not at all representative of the site. I particularly want to note some comments that have laid out some crucial information about the membership here, which I have misjudged and probably approached in the wrong way. So, please accept my apologies for that. It probably stocked off some of the hostility I've encountered, so I deserve a lump or two. Thanks all. Still not sure if this is my new home, but I'll poke around some to grok y'all before I make any more misguided assumptions.

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Comments

mahakali overdrive's picture

the format is a roller coaster, but it was free and worked! a life raft. it is like twitter and fb. i dislike it not having blogs. i love that other sites can be posted there though... it feels like grand central station, which has a purpose. if every person here went off and began an individual blog, kfs could still collect all of them for people as an index to start their day with, like my google news rss feed but way better and with community. big love to you madame brooklyn Wink

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“It is not the slumber of reason that engenders monsters, but vigilant and insomniac rationality.” -- Gilles Deleuze

riverlover's picture

and it IS like Grand Central Station, and uncomfortable for a semi-agoraphobic. I have trouble in people-space with herding. Not a sheep.

Have a nice vacation! Far (haha) from the madding crowd.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Never planned to become THIS proficient In All the different platforms INNERTUBE platforms... But it's way past time to leave the safety of the GOS and enter the bigger cyber world lol

MO try to NOT reign in your reddit to much... I scroll through every comment at least twice a day JUST to see what all sides of the revolution are sayin.

and I happily wait for the time that the Progressive groups hold their first annual national meet-up / social event and leave Netroots in the dustbin of cyber status quo history. Smile

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Orwell was an optimist

On the flip side of that coin, I was witnessing many of the Sanders supporters I'd worked with post all over Facebook what seemed to me to be delusional posts about plans to run as a independent, about pending indictments for Clinton, about vote-stealing, and other fantastical conspiracy talk that ignored the knowable facts before them.

There's nothing more dangerous than those in politics who close themselves off to opposing views and who demonize those who express them.

The Bolsheviks have suppressed another dissenting view, and you didn't need a gulag to do it.

More's the pity, because either you don't see where you're headed, or you don't see the problem there. I may be wrong about a lot of things, but at least, I know I'm not an asshole, and I refuse to let myself become one.

Do you see any contradictions in your comments?

Further, the "work with in the party" group needs to face the fact that apparently, many people who have supported/worked with the dem party for decades, observing its increased deterioration over the years, aren't buying the WWITP argument any more.

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dfarrah

TheOtherMaven's picture

Sanders may not run as an independent, but there are a lot of people who would like him to and who would vote for him if he did. (Me too.)

Clinton's server shenanigans would - not might, WOULD - have gotten any other government employee summarily sacked and probably indicted. Not Her, though, because she's Too Powerful To Fail. Blum 3

Claims of election fraud are not just "conspiracy theory" - there is solid statistical evidence that the results were not strictly according to Hoyle. (StevenD has posted about this.) We know the Republican Party has gamed the system in the past, and it should be no surprise that the Democratic Party is reverting to its old-time Tammany Hall form. We know that electronic voting machines are nowhere near as secure as ATMs - with no good reasons for the insecurity. We know they can be hacked, and that alone should be enough to cause a major push for improvement (banks would have rushed to upgrade ATMS with that many and that obvious problems). And why are exit polls valid indicators everywhere else in the world, but not in the United States - something is wrong, but what? (And this year only one party's results are way out of line, and it ain't the Republicans!)

There is room for differences of opinion here, and even for making like an ostrich and pretending that "nothing is wrong" - although you're likely to get razzed if you do that. But there's no room for claiming There Is Only One True Way and everybody else is "delusional" or worse. This site doesn't do One True Way stuff.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

FF did not say

There Is Only One True Way and everybody else is "delusional" or worse.

FF said (emphasis mine)

what seemed to me to be delusional posts about plans to run as an independent, about pending indictments for Clinton, about vote-stealing, and other fantastical conspiracy talk that ignored the knowable facts before them.

Nonetheless, if I have a different opinion from yours about anything that matters beyond your personal sphere or mine, the necessary implication (outside of getting very, very Zen) is that I think you're wrong, and it would be better for you (and everyone affected by your actions) if you changed your opinion. Period. We can all try to gloss it up in as-polite-and-inoffensive-as-possible language, but it doesn't change the reality that if I think Working Within The Dem Party will achieve the objective of creating a government that defends the interests of the 99%, and I also think Working To Create A Third Party (And Not The Greens!) will not achieve that objective, then censoring my rhetoric to avoid language invoking the subjunctive and/or imperative moods is disingenuous bullshit. Several folks here go ballistic anytime words like "should" or "must" or "ought" or "need" appear in a paragraph expressing a philosophy that differs from their own. Well ... Fuck That. There are things that I believe should be done, and things that I believe should not be done, and if we are to be offended when told that the conclusions of someone else's particular analyses imply a list of imperatives for all of us, then we are all wasting our time here, because what we have is not a nascent political movement, but an extended virtual rap/therapy session.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Haikukitty's picture

I, of course, like you, have opinions and ways I think things should be done. But even if I think you are wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean you are delusional. It is possible to be both wrong and lucid.

Or correct and still be delusional. Wrong and delusional are two different things.

Or does that fall under the category of rhetoric? And if it does, are people not entitled to be annoyed by it?

I've rarely gotten irritated when someone says "I think you're wrong and here's why." I am, honestly, not likely to change my opinion unless the argument or facts are very convincing, but I'm okay with that. I've rarely NOT gotten irritated when someone has said I am "delusional." There is something to be said for politeness in discourse, especially in a situation where we are missing the other conversational cues of facial expressions, tonality, etc.

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Can we be sure to add those words to the site listing for what words are and are not allowed?

The idea that there should be any politeness in discourse only matters with certain words and terms of course, but please, do let us all know which words are and are not allowed.

Or don't.

DELUSION
noun
1.an act or instance of deluding.
2.the state of being deluded.
3.a false belief or opinion:
delusions of grandeur.

Or maybe the interpretation of the word is being blown out of proportion.

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It's just to hard to spell and takes to long to type

(Smile)

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Orwell was an optimist

And I've never been fond of the words Fandango or Shenandoah. Don't know why...

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Orwell was an optimist

elenacarlena's picture

supercalifragilisticexpialidocious antidisestablishmentarianism I have ever seen outside of Shenandoah.

Whew! Wasn't sure I would be able to make that into a sentence, but had to try.

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Haikukitty's picture

Once again I made the mistake of thinking I was allowed to express an opinion.

Nowhere did I say the word should be banned.

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I happen to disagree. Please don't get all holier than thou and pretend you're not allowed to express whatever opinions you have.

I didn't use the word ban or banned. I simply asked for words which we should be careful about since you brought up the use of the word delusional as a problem word.

Once again I made the mistake of thinking I was allowed to express an opinion.

Someone disagreeing with you is not 'not being able to express your opinion' - unless of course you think that a 'safe space' for certain opinions is a requirement.

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Haikukitty's picture

You said:

but please, do let us all know which words are and are not allowed.

Or don't.

when I certainly never said the word or any words were disallowed. I was making a case simply for politeness and trying to choose words with care in absence of other cues - something which apparently fell on deaf ears.

Disagree with me all you want, but if you continue to do it in such a condescending, insulting manner, we just won't converse here. I'm ok with that - not everyone hits it off.

PLENTY of people have disagreed with me here. Big Al does it quite often. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. I have a problem with the WAY you disagree with me on things I haven't actually said.

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I didn't agree with your interpretation of how delusion/delusional should be considered as a poor word to use. But please don't take my disagreement as meaning you have not (yet again) been allowed to have or share an opinion.

And I am completely fine if you don't reply to me or want to converse with me.

What.Ever.

Still - The way I disagree with you…OK. here goes.But again.

I think you're wrong about he word delusion and delusional. There are definitions beyond the ones you are applying and not everyone infers the meaning you do.

Maybe now...

No -you didn't "disagree" with my opinion.

you'll see I did disagree with you.

Maybe others didn't like the WAY you presented your opinion either - your opinion does depend on inference of the word delusion(al) in a specific manner and not just the basic meaning as if available in any dictionary easily looked up online.

But again. Whatever.
#whatever

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Haikukitty's picture

You also inferred I said a bunch of things I didn't say, which was obviously what I took issue with.

So, I retract the "you didn't disagree with me" part of the statement.

And no offense, I'd rather we didn't converse. You have consistently been demeaning and insulting in response to my comments. Maybe it's intended, maybe it's not. Maybe it's simply my inference.

But I really enjoy the conversations I have with others here, who don't seem to read the same nefarious intent behind my comments. It doesn't require a "what. ever." although, of course, you are allowed to say whatever.

We obviously rub each other the wrong way, for whatever reason.

Peace.

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

you wrote:

your opinion does depend on inference of the word delusion(al) in a specific manner and not just the basic meaning as if available in any dictionary easily looked up online.

"Basic meaning" according to which source? The one that supports your argument?

FYI, the very first definition provided by Bing search is the one I initially provided to you.

Are you asserting that before you were provided my 'other' definition, you weren't aware of the more negative connotation of the word?

Or are you still trying, and failing (imo) to be funny?

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

Uh, what you wrote was:

Can we be sure to add those words to the site listing for what words are and are not allowed?

Sounds like 'banned' to me.

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Kinda like, Delusion(al) - one meaning was inferred, but a completely different meaning also has specific definition to use of the word(s) mentioned.

Given the push back on the use of that word, a little snark was added in response, or a lot by some opinions given 'the WAY' I disagreed is now a point of contention.

But WOW and LOL. And thank you for an additional LOL.

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

Yes, because 'banned' and 'not allowed' could have widely different interpretations, depending on how intentionally obtuse one chooses to be.

lol? Hardly.

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

I agreed with you.

The notion that somehow civility, (however indefinable that concept may be to some) is going to hamper honesty or freedom of expression smacks of over-tightened panties. Which I find ironic given how this discussion started, even if I'm using the word ironic incorrectly.

Wink

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

I believe the word in question was delusional. Which has some pretty negative connotations, imo.

de·lu·sion·al.
ADJECTIVE

1.characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder:

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does not mean that the only definition of the odd deals with that.

delusional
[dih-loo-zhuh-nl]

Examples
1.
having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions:

the second definition from this source did have a psychiatric designation of the definition, but I wasn;t aware that when using all words - or reading them on this site that they had to be interpreted toward specific ways.

…unless of course there is an inference chart we're supposed to follow.

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elenacarlena's picture

It seems to me that when people refuse to accept the responsibility that goes along with a freedom,

Sooner or later, others have had enough and will decide to limit that freedom.

Just something I have observed.

Edited for typo. Sigh.

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I've gotten quite a few laughs form this exchange, but wow...

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Alphalop's picture

particularly based on prior writings.

But does it really matter one way or another? Nothing is being banned, all I see is people saying if you are going to use words to describe others that are at best condescending then you shouldn't be surprised if/when you get pushback.

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

but given the opinion based on a word with multiple definitions, I responded like i did, with some snark included which obviously wasn't appreciated.

Hell, someone else thought something i said was a 'rant'. OK, whatever, but a funny one (to me) and not an angry one…

I mentioned a phrase/word in another post which i disagreed with and got told how wrong I was, i made some basic replies and then what did i do? I kept it cool like Frozen and 'Let It Go'.

Obviously, someone else seems unwilling to do that, and the comedy was a bit too much to just let it go today since i didn't start the posting not he word delusion(al).

But as I said to that person…

Whatever. LOL.

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

I agree, it would probably be best to agree on a list of banned words, so that those that sometimes struggle when interacting with other humans won't find themselves constantly confused by the angry replies they receive.

I find that most people take it as a compliment when I call them delusional, don't you?

Oh, sorry, is snark impolite and uncivil?

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Oh, sorry, is snark impolite and uncivil?

- especially when someone disagrees with the WAY it happens to be used.

Oh, sorry

No apology for the use of snark necessary. I am probably guilty of not providing a safe space or something.

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

Hey, there's nothing wrong here that a little mockery won't fix, right?

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be irritated. i think the appropriate response is not to lash out in frenzied condemnation. though i guess treating a minor rhetorical affectation as grounds for reading the riot act is fine, as long as you recognize and accept the consequences: some people are going to say, "fuck it," and leave.

which is what TomP and FF both have done. they also both explained why. it irritates me that some folks can only respond to those explanations with a sneer. would they prefer that folks who find the site's culture unappealing simply vanish without explanation? the only reason that i can see for such a preference would be a very great confidence that the site has providentially settled quickly into perfection, and need (EDIT, was: "to", rather than "not") not concern itself with possible improvements.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

elenacarlena's picture

site and the posters seemed to make a great deal of sense to me. So if there is better evidence that none of these things are possible, I would like to see it. A condescending claim of delusion does not make me delusional. For all I know, it's an attempt at gaslighting.

And "you seem to me delusional" does not sit much better than "you are delusional". How about some facts?

For example:
What's wrong with, instead of "you seem to me delusional," say, "vote stealing could not have happened because..."

Our evidence: Diebold machines are hackable and the exit polls were way off from the "votes" and other countries use that as an indication some effery is up.

What's your evidence?

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Alphalop's picture

it meme may actually be correct.

The exit poll results were only outside the normal margin of error for ONE party.

The Republicans exit polls and results were within the MOE in every case I believe, with none of the huge outliers that we have seen consistently in this race. on the democratic side.

Well, I guess that shatters my belief that both parties were the same.

Apparently only the Democratic Party works to disenfranchise its OWN voter's and elections....

That is so sad, pathetic and disgusting and yet they expect me to vote for the DNC backed candidate after the actions they have taken and the things they have said?

Well, lets just say they can all go eat a bag of (Insert whatever you think is worst here.)!

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

mimi's picture

I have a "Doppelgänger" here. Acute

Just saying. No problem, no offense, just saying.

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

Given what is "knowable", I think your comment is "delusional".

Wink

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elenacarlena's picture

that hacking can be proven. I'm not an IT person, but doesn't hacking usually leave a trail?

If not, then going forward, we MUST get checks and balances on these machines, so that any effery can be knowable! Enough is enough.

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

My (admittedly smart-assed) comment wasn't aimed at you.

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

The tone you've taken in your 'parting words' is much different than that taken in many of your comments here.
LotLizard, among others, has taken you to task for the patronizing, "problematic" tone of your commentary, which imo quite often reeked of that 'T-word' that some here take exception to.
Based upon your comments here, I'm not that surprised that being an "asshole" (your word) at the OP got you a long time-out.
Perhaps instead of playing the victim, you could work on 'playing well with others'.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

You actually know how to use the "Subject" text box?

Holy cow.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
riverlover's picture

it's an entirely different world to read comments from the bottom to top. See backward a discussion unfold. Yoda.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Alphalop's picture

Mind_blowing.png

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

You leaving or not is your choice, and yours alone. Not going to try convincing you one way or the other. Instead, I'd like to address the idea of changing the democratic party from within.

When you do something for a long time, and it repeatedly doesn't work, like the Cuba embargo or the Iran sanctions, it gets to a point where you have to stop and try something different (a la lifting the embargo and the Iran nuclear deal). I view the problem of the democratic party the same way. How many decades have progressives tried to change the party from within? When has it ever worked? The only progressive accomplishments that I can think of in my couple decades of life haven't originated from within the party, but from outside it. Example: I don't recall the party fighting for gay rights. In fact, I recall them being against the idea, just not as adamant as the Republican party. It was the people who actually fought for it, and now that we have gay rights, the democratic party takes credit for being such a great ally, even though they did jack shit to actually make it a thing.

The only change I've seen the democratic party do in my time is to become more right wing. I don't think it's even people within the party doing this, but their reaction to the Republican party becoming more right wing itself. Progressives haven't stopped the democratic party from doing that from within the party. I don't think they've even effectively slowed it down. So given that changing the party from within hasn't worked, and it seems the party is more receptive to outside influence than internal, the logical conclusion to me is that progressives need to stop trying to do something that hasn't worked, and try something new that looks like it'll have a much better chance of working. We need to get out of the party, and form one that does not give in to the rightward pull of both the current parties.

It's easier to keep a boat from going over a waterfall standing on a shore with a rope attached than it is to be in the boat paddling against the current.

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Alphalop's picture

That really does a great job of describing the current choices.

Personally, while I love boats, not a huge fan of going over waterfalls in them (Only crazies do that, Smart people like me use barrels. Wink ) so I will be standing here on shore but I ain't gonna be holding the rope.

I will be chanting, "Stroke! Stroke! Stroke!".

I will be glad to see that ship smashed to a thousand pieces on the rocks below. The DNC has been holding us back even more than the Republicans, because they have been doing it from within and with our support.

Well, they will get zero support from me from now on.

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

To let the few remaining progressives abandon ship, then wave goodbye as you let it go.

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and I so see your point. I have been on the fence but so disgusted with the "Democratic" Brand I think a third party may be the way to go. From what history I have read, outside pressure really is the only thing that ever got real traction. Makes it seem harder, but that analogy is perfect for this.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

thought of as a collection of people, but as a tool -- an instrument for obtaining votes. The question is simply, who gets to wield this tool?

"change from within" is a slightly misleading phrase, because the objective is not to change the party, the objective is to seize the party from the relatively small number of people who currently wield it.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Pluto's Republic's picture

It doesn't work like it used to. Jobs take forever to complete; progress is soooo incremental.

I wouldn't bother fixing it because the entire tool is worn out. I'd sell it on Craigslist to someone really old, who only needs it for a short time.

Me, I'd head to Home Depot and get a brand new one; one that will last a lifetime.

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The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

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