A Response to Aron Ra and Movement Atheism

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFKoCf02b6c]

Feel free to watch the video. I didn't go into it beyond five minutes because right away these two refuse outright to address the root cause of our 'disunion': Capitalism. No amount of pontificating on social issues will mitigate the fact that capitalism has hollowed the country from the inside out. The current crop of movement atheism utterly ignores this.

Another fact that movement atheism conveniently ignores is the expansion of so-called faith-based initiatives and privatization of education under the Obama Administration. What else happened under shitty 'Democratic' leadership? Expansion of imperialism world wide. Failure to fill court appointments, and I'm not just talking about Merrick Garland. More offshore drilling leases than any other administration in history. Made the Bush Tax Cuts permanent. Made a REPUBLICAN insurance money grab law. Cut Social Security and Medicare (While the ACA privatized the latter). Stood completely AGAINST Occupy Wall Street. Shoved Keystone XL and DAPL up 'Murica's fat ass while shitting on people who opposed both. Shit on Flint, Michigan. And that's just under one Moderate Repub- oh, I'm sorry, Democratic administration. Oh, but that's okay, because he made gay marriage legal. And some morons actually went so far as to declare all of this a 'victory for the left'.

I know you and your ilk love to play the horseshoe theory card and blame the 'far-left' for supposedly helping far-right demagogues for taking power, but you don't have that right.

Tell me, where were all the movement atheists during all of this? Oh, that's right, they were too busy listening to douche bags like Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins while they were advocating US imperialism in the Middle East. But that's okay, they totally owned creationists on the internet. Ironically, many of these same movement atheists ended up backing Dipshit in the last presidential election because the 'left' went too far, or worse, they just wanted to troll people.

So, if any movement atheist ever sees this (fat chance), let me make a suggestion: You want the spread of far-right religious extremism to stop? Fight capitalism instead of enabling it.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

I often think that Christopher Hitchens says and writes whatever he thinks will piss off the most people. We have no idea what he really thinks or believes.

I have no idea why Richard Dawkins has turned to the same team (capitalists) as prosperity gospel beLIEver Joel Osteen.

Bad

Maybe Voltaire was right: if God really doesn't exist, it will be necessary for Man to create Him.

Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@thanatokephaloides
Nothing.
cuz he's dead.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@UntimelyRippd

we know exactly what hitchens thinks AND believes:
Nothing.
cuz he's dead.

grumblegrumble$#^&!! grammar nazis grumblegrumble......

Wink

cuz he's dead.

And many of us are grateful.....

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@thanatokephaloides
anyway, even after he got all "Kill the Muslims," I did respect him for agreeing to be waterboarded, and in the aftermath immediately stating, without equivocation, "That is torture."

I always kinda liked the idea of waterboarding Cheney until he admitted that waterboarding was torture. And then trying him for war crimes.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

not clear to me is the extent to which christian fundamoronism acts as a bulwark, or a pillar, or a foundation, or some such thing, for the capitalist mythology. it certainly gives politicians on the right and the right of right a reliable base of voters who will choose against their own interests.

so i don't know, maybe movement atheism by its nature undermines capitalism, whether it's trying to or not.

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0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@UntimelyRippd

i get where you're coming from, but one thing that's not clear to me is the extent to which christian fundamoronism acts as a bulwark, or a pillar, or a foundation, or some such thing, for the capitalist mythology.

Duck Duck Go the term "Prosperity Gospel". Bad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

And by the way, I know Eddie Tabash. He is very active with Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a well known and well respected activist group founded in the 1940's with the express purpose of preserving the fight against religious intrusions into our government. I was on the national advisory committee with Eddie. AU wrote letters to Obama and many public articles expressing their dissatisfaction with his breaking of a campaign promise to dismantle the office of faith based initiatives. And it was the Freedom From Religion Foundation that took the Bush administration to court over the creation of the Office of Faith Based Initiatives. The result was a Supreme Court who voted that it was legal for the executive branch to use its funds anyway that they desire and that the citizens have no standing to question or oversight of those tax dollars and how they are used. This has to do with the Christianization of our SCOTUS (exactly what Eddie talked about). It has NOTHING to do with capitalism!
You asked where were atheists when all this was going on... they were working actively against it. I know, I was there.
I watched about 4 minutes of this video and saw nothing that deserved the kind of contempt displayed here.
The "capitalism" argument is just a thinly disguised cover used to allow the author of this "essay" to vent his hatred of all things atheist. This is an irrational rant and a full display of ignorance about atheism, atheist writers and those like me who have worked for years to try to protect what is left of a very fragile founding gift.

One of the reasons I was dogged and attacked on Daily Kos was because I am an atheist who happens to believe that religious ideas and claims are fair game for scrutiny and criticism just as political or any other ideas should be. In fact, I found that some of the most intolerant and nasty people on that site were liberal Protestants and Catholics. One major player on that site wrote a whole diary proposing that comments by atheists should be held to a whole different level of moderation. It was no less than a blasphemy punishment proposal.

Note to The Aspie Corner.... you can certainly hate atheists and express that hatred, even on here. I would be the last person to suggest that your opinion be banned or blocked in any way. As I always said to people on DKos, 'if you don't like someone's opinion, either ignore it or criticize it or counter it with other facts or evidence.." If you had used facts or offered evidence for any of your claims here, I would have done that. But you didn't. And I could not just ignore this, not after everything I experienced at DKos. So all I can say again is that this writing is sheer garbage and nonsense, I am sorry to see it printed here. I thought I had escaped that kind of DKos nastiness when I joined this site. I guess I was wrong.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

The Aspie Corner's picture

@Fishtroller 02 far-left and far-right like a typical liberal? Not gonna happen.

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Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

@The Aspie Corner
perhaps you'd care to support them with evidence? I watched the first 8 minutes of the video (well beyond what you claimed to have viewed), and he never mentions "the far left" -- he only states that "liberals" got it wrong when they pushed against compelling individuals or businesses to abide by certain laws that violate those individuals' religious beliefs.

Your title says you're responding to Aron Ra, but you don't mention him at all in your essay. I really don't know what your beef is here, at all, never mind why you're so fucking angry about it. Do all of us now no longer get a "pass" from you, should we ever indulge ourselves in advocating for anything, anywhere, ever, except the smashing of capitalism? And shall we expect to be pilloried should we point out any curious comings-together of far-right and far-left activists in advocacy for anti-humanist policy?

I mean, I can live with that, but regardless, I think you're off the rails here, man.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

The Aspie Corner's picture

@UntimelyRippd They've been doing that nonsense for years, Aron Ra especially. If he wants to know why Texassistan is in dire straits (Flawer'Duh is too, by the way), he should look toward his own party leadership simply not giving two shits about their own constituents.

You want to play the liberal horseshoe? Back it up. Otherwise, don't compare the far-left and far-right.

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Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

@The Aspie Corner
you had any right to, since i took your bait, watched the video well beyond the point you claimed to have watched, and saw nothing to support your assertions. feel free to quote it for me, i'm not going to sit and spin idly through it hoping to eventually encounter something that validates your anger. the odds that i'm going to agree with you in the end are pretty small, and i'm not terribly motivated to put more time into it, so instead i'm just going to assume you're wrong.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

The Aspie Corner's picture

@UntimelyRippd By pointing out the concern trolling by both of them? The only issues we've ever been allowed to 'debate' over the last 40 years are god-damned wedge issues. Meanwhile even when the so-called left gets into power, we end up with Republican policies anyway. Religious extremism has always had 'Murica by the balls and that's highly unlikely to change anytime soon, but please feel free to keep arguing over the 1% of issues the pigs allow you to argue over while they continue to rob the world blind.

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Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

@The Aspie Corner

... since i took your bait, watched the video well beyond the point you claimed to have watched, and saw nothing to support your assertions.

all you've done thus far is rant, rave, and abuse the term "troll" and "concern troll", both of which imply a lack of sincerity on the part of the target(s). you pointed us at a 45 minute video, claimed that the money-shot happened within 5 minutes (an underestimate by at least 60%) and have declined to support your claim that anyone in that video "equates" the far left and the far right. blah blah blah you're welcome.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@The Aspie Corner

Eddie's either and left the atheism out of it you might have been able to squeak this through the smell test. However, the interview had nothing to do with the topic of capitalism or any of the other highly stretched connections you attempted to make. This interview was about the decline of separation of church and state and both of these men have done a lot to combat this erosion. If you want to pin a rap about capitalism on anyone, then make sure that they are at least discussing or have some sort of record of statements about that topic. And if you are going to fling obscenities to describe Hitchens, Dawkins or any other major atheist writer, at least have the courtesy to address what they have written about rather than tried to pin a false flag on them.

"Tell me, where were all the movement atheists during all of this? Oh, that's right, they were too busy listening to douche bags like Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins while they were advocating US imperialism in the Middle East."

I have seen this type of trope a million times...ususally written by religionists whose noses are out of joint because these authors had the temerity to call out religious ideas and claims for what they are. Just read the history of Christianity in Europe and all over the world before the US concept of separation of church and state got its start. MILLIONS of people killed in an attempt to bow heads to a particular set of religious tenets. Now we have Islam doing the same thing in the middle east and in places all over the world. And again MILLIONS are dying and there's more to come. Religion IS DANGEROUS to our world. It has always been so. Saying this or writing about this is NOT endorsing western imperialism, it's calling out these dangerous ideas for what they are and what they are doing.
This again is what happened on DKos... criticism of the ideas and claims of Islam brought a label of Islamophobia slapped on your forehead.

Read Sam Harris's End of Faith for yourself and stop misrepresenting his POV.
Read Christopher Hitchens God is Not Great and tell me he's an imperialist.
Read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and just read the Preface.

You are very much off track with this train of thought, and you managed to make a jumble of poor analysis into an insulting rant. The question is should I give YOU a pass for your insults?

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

The Aspie Corner's picture

@Fishtroller 02 advocating US imperialism because religion is violent. Way to keep the cycle going, bud. Religion preaches against the working class, too. Do they care about that shit? Nah. Economic issues don't matter to social issue trolls.

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Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

@The Aspie Corner

Beyond that, you make no sense at all.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

The Aspie Corner's picture

@Fishtroller 02 After all, Atheism is just a lack of belief in deities. Militant atheism is just as bad as religious fundamentalism. Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are pretty good examples of what not to be. You can also add Thunderfoot, TJ Kirk, Seth Andrews and Matt Dillahunty to that list.

Sam Harris Interviews 'Scientific' Racist Charles Murphy, co-author of The Bell Curve

Richard Dawkins' Victim Blaming Re: Rape in India

Aron Ra's advocacy for proper science education is something I've followed for years and respect a lot. I just can't understand why he goes along with a political party that didn't even acknowledge his existence when he ran for political office, so why continue to stooge for them? Because they're 'right' on social issues even though they're imperialist ratfuckers on foreign policy and economic royalists at home?

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Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

@The Aspie Corner

Your essay goes off the rails in so many places, it's a waste of my time to try to address it all.

As far as your "militant atheist" crap goes...from Psychology Today....

"Nine bullets fired from close range ended the life of Salman Taseer last month, making the Pakistani governor the latest high-profile victim of religious violence. Taseer had the audacity to publicly question Pakistan's blasphemy laws, and for this transgression he paid with his life.

Taseer joins a list of numerous other high-profile victims of militant religion, such as Dr. George Tiller, the Kansas abortion doctor killed by a devout Christian assassin in 2009, and Theo Van Gogh, the Dutch filmmaker whose provocative movie about Islam resulted in his being brutally murdered in 2004.

With this background, it is especially puzzling that the American media and public still perpetuate the cliché of so-called "militant atheism." We hear the disparaging term "militant atheist" used frequently, the unquestioned assumption being that militant atheists are of course roaming the streets of America.

In fact, however, while millions of atheists are indeed walking our streets, it would be difficult to find even one who could accurately be described as militant. In all of American history, it is doubtful that any person has ever been killed in the name of atheism. In fact, it would be difficult to find evidence that any American has ever even been harmed in the name of atheism. It just does not happen, because the notion of "militant atheism" is entirely fantasy.

When the media and others refer to a "militant atheist," the object of that slander is usually an atheist who had the nerve to openly question religious authority or vocally express his or her views about the existence of God. Conventional wisdom quickly tells us that such conduct is shameful or, at the very least, distasteful, and therefore the brazen nonbeliever is labeled "militant."

But this reflects a double standard, because it seems to apply only to atheists. Religious individuals and groups frequently declare, sometimes subtly and sometimes not, that you are a sinner and that you will suffer in hell for eternity if you do not adopt their supernatural beliefs, but they will almost never be labeled "militant" by the media or the public. Instead, such individuals are called "devout" and such churches are called "evangelical."

The lesson here is clear. If you're an atheist, shut up about it. If you are open or vocal about your atheist worldview, you are a "militant atheist." Be silent, even though that same standard does not apply to those who passionately disagree with you."

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

The Aspie Corner's picture

@Fishtroller 02 but he sure as shit shills for one. And an imperialist one that is exactly where the far-right was a decade ago, at that.

"We have to get the religious right out of the supreme court. We're out-manned and out-spent and out-gunned." And yet these two 'intellectuals' will continue to shill for a party that will stab them in the back when they get elected, and even after all that, they will still tell us we have to vote Ds because Rs are worse. The alt-right think the reverse, so what's the difference?

The supreme court will do the will of capital, as it has since the day this imperialist shithole was founded.

And way to completely side-step everything I said with this tidbit:

In fact, however, while millions of atheists are indeed walking our streets, it would be difficult to find even one who could accurately be described as militant. In all of American history, it is doubtful that any person has ever been killed in the name of atheism. In fact, it would be difficult to find evidence that any American has ever even been harmed in the name of atheism. It just does not happen, because the notion of "militant atheism" is entirely fantasy.

When the media and others refer to a "militant atheist," the object of that slander is usually an atheist who had the nerve to openly question religious authority or vocally express his or her views about the existence of God. Conventional wisdom quickly tells us that such conduct is shameful or, at the very least, distasteful, and therefore the brazen nonbeliever is labeled "militant."

But this reflects a double standard, because it seems to apply only to atheists. Religious individuals and groups frequently declare, sometimes subtly and sometimes not, that you are a sinner and that you will suffer in hell for eternity if you do not adopt their supernatural beliefs, but they will almost never be labeled "militant" by the media or the public. Instead, such individuals are called "devout" and such churches are called "evangelical."

The lesson here is clear. If you're an atheist, shut up about it. If you are open or vocal about your atheist worldview, you are a "militant atheist." Be silent, even though that same standard does not apply to those who passionately disagree with you."

You're right. They don't kill in the name of atheism. I never even suggested that. I was simply pointing out that hacks like Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens are imperialist assholes and complete douchebags, atheism aside.

If any of them had any brains, they'd realize that the only reason the nutjob Islamists are so militant is because we made them that way so they'd fight the Soviet Union for the pigs...oh, we wanted easy access to the resources they happen to be sitting on, too.

Remember kids, human rights aren't allowed beyond western borders. And even then, you only have as much right to anything as you can afford.

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Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

@The Aspie Corner

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@The Aspie Corner

generally bother you. You have gone out of your way to prove otherwise by posting anti-atheist nonsense and links to atheist hating nonsense. I have met Matt Dilahunty and Seth Andrews and heard them speak, so I know you know nothing about either one of them.

You might want to stop digging this hole.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

TheOtherMaven's picture

The High Priestess of Unregulated Capitalism herself (Ayn Rand) was an open, avowed and unabashed atheist.

Doesn't seem to matter what you believe, as long as it lets you get away with oppressing and exploiting the "little people".

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Deja's picture

@TheOtherMaven

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@TheOtherMaven

One of these things is not connected to the other

The High Priestess of Unregulated Capitalism herself (Ayn Rand) was an open, avowed and unabashed atheist.

Doesn't seem to matter what you believe, as long as it lets you get away with oppressing and exploiting the "little people".

At the end of the day, in my humble opinion, the only real point of all of this is that Christopher Hutchins is no Bertrand Russell.

Or, as Shakespeare would have it, "Much ado about nothing."

Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides