@CS in AZ In her historical context, Brownmiller's hypothesis made thinking about rape far more accurate. She was clarifying the issue. It's worth remembering that the prevailing opinion at the time was that rape occurred because the man in question was overwhelmed with lust, and had nothing to do with power relations. The concept of rape as abuse, in the modern sense, had not developed. It's due to her, and activists and scholars like her, that those power relations became visible.

That's worth remembering as current scholars debunk Brownmiller, and I hope to God the debunking proceeds with great care, and a bastardized version of the new data doesn't spread far and wide, justifying a thousand shitty acts.

#2.1.2.2.1.2.1.1.1

Rape is Not (Only) About Power; It’s (Also) About Sex

Feminist scholarship has also changed the way rape is explained. Prior to the movement’s rise in the 60s and 70s rape was considered to be largely about sex. Feminist scholarship proposed instead that rape was about the assertion of male power over women. The event that ushered in this paradigm shift was the publication, in 1975, of Susan Brownmiller’s ‘Against Our Will,’ in which Brownmiller sought to reframe rape as a political issue: the embodiment, and enforcement tool, of patriarchal misogyny. “Rape,” Brownmiller wrote, “is not a crime of irrational, impulsive, uncontrollable lust, but is a deliberate, hostile, violent act of degradation and possession on the part of a would-be conqueror, designed to intimidate and inspire fear…” She wanted rape to be eliminated through socio-political change in the same way lynching, a once thriving practice, has been thus eliminated.

It goes on to say that current research (and logic) defy this concept, at least in part.

... to claim that sex—one of our most powerful motives (our species’ existence depends on it, after all)—is somehow absent from an act that routinely involves erection, vaginal penetration, and ejaculation defies reason.

Moreover, even if we frame rape as an assertion of patriarchal power, the question remains: asserting power to what end? As some feminist scholars have noted, the origins of the patriarchy itself may quite reasonably be traced to the male motivation to control female sexuality. If rape is a symbol of patriarchal ambition, than it symbolizes a sexual motive.

... “The evidence is substantial and it leads to a simple conclusion: most rapists force victims to have sex because they want sex,” the researchers assert.

Things are changing however.

Contemporary feminist scholars, alert to the limitations of the ‘rape is about power’ dogma, have also risen to the challenge of providing a more nuanced, empirically based and hence useful understanding of rape. For example, a recent paper by Beverly McPhail of the University of Houston seeks to knit together several feminist theories of rape into a new comprehensive model. ...

Rape, she asserts further, “occurs due to multiple motives rather than the single motivation... The multiple motivations include, but are not limited to, sexual gratification, revenge, recreation, power/control, and attempts to achieve or perform masculinity.”

Speaking now as a personal survivor of rape/sexual assault (as a teen, by a known and previously trusted pseudo-family member) I agree with this. I've never bought the idea it's always and only about power and control. There are plenty of ways for people to dominate others. When they choose sex as the method, there's a reason for that.

Note I'm not saying that means it's acceptable. Not even remotely.

I must also tell you, you're mistaken to believe all sexual relationships involve elements of force. I've been with my spouse for close to 30 years now. Never once has he forced, even slightly, and he's clearly horrified at being asked if he's ever even thought about it or wanted to force himself on anyone. "Good god no! That would be the last thing I'd want!" was his response. I've known him long enough to believe him. I'm close friends with several men who share this abhorrence, who I'm close enough to them and their partners to know. Our circle includes people involved in various communities, sex-positive, polyamory, alternative and sacred sexuality. The concepts of respect and consent are core concepts among these communities, and the people share those values, regardless of gender.

In other words, rape, or even the urge to force yourself on anyone, is not just about sex or being horney either. Many people experience sexual rejection, frustration, deprivation, and yet do not rape, or even consider rape. There has to be an element of desire to dominate, control, and disrespect other people which makes some people, mostly men, into rapists and predators.

I do believe this is an issue where we can, and should, as a society, put a stop to rape and sexual aggression as the "norm" and teach respect and consent as core values. I do not accept for one second that we have to continue accepting it. The recent downfall of multiple powerful men because of it is perhaps a signal that times are changing.

@CS in AZ Yes, there are many ways to achieve power and control. There are also many ways to achieve an ejaculation, most of them simpler than rape.

Rape is so liberally spread out over the classes, all the way to the top, that it's just as ridiculous to say "men rape because they want sex" as it is to say "rape has nothing to do with sexual desire." Anybody in the top 10% who wants sex and can't get it for free can pay for it, with little risk, and get, I am told, quite a polished product. Even a middle-class person, with a little effort, can find a place which will give a man a "happy ending."

Do places with fewer prostitutes have a higher rate of rape? Does rape decrease as you go up the social ladder? For a rich man, it's not any harder to pick up the phone and get a call girl than it is to feed a woman a roofie, or get her alone, slap her around, and force sex on her. Actually, it's probably easier.

I like the woman who says there are multiple reasons for rape. I would add that some of those reasons seem pretty damned related to me. In other words, some men get excited by forcing people to do things they don't want to do. To refer to lotlizard's comment above, Henry Kissinger once said "power is the ultimate aphrodisiac." That doesn't just mean women get all dewy-eyed and pliable when a powerful man walks by. It means that men get off on the concept of themselves as powerful. Some of them connect these two things directly, with horrific results.

And yes, this is informed by my own experience with rape.

#2.1.2.2.1.2.1.1.1

Rape is Not (Only) About Power; It’s (Also) About Sex

Feminist scholarship has also changed the way rape is explained. Prior to the movement’s rise in the 60s and 70s rape was considered to be largely about sex. Feminist scholarship proposed instead that rape was about the assertion of male power over women. The event that ushered in this paradigm shift was the publication, in 1975, of Susan Brownmiller’s ‘Against Our Will,’ in which Brownmiller sought to reframe rape as a political issue: the embodiment, and enforcement tool, of patriarchal misogyny. “Rape,” Brownmiller wrote, “is not a crime of irrational, impulsive, uncontrollable lust, but is a deliberate, hostile, violent act of degradation and possession on the part of a would-be conqueror, designed to intimidate and inspire fear…” She wanted rape to be eliminated through socio-political change in the same way lynching, a once thriving practice, has been thus eliminated.

It goes on to say that current research (and logic) defy this concept, at least in part.

... to claim that sex—one of our most powerful motives (our species’ existence depends on it, after all)—is somehow absent from an act that routinely involves erection, vaginal penetration, and ejaculation defies reason.

Moreover, even if we frame rape as an assertion of patriarchal power, the question remains: asserting power to what end? As some feminist scholars have noted, the origins of the patriarchy itself may quite reasonably be traced to the male motivation to control female sexuality. If rape is a symbol of patriarchal ambition, than it symbolizes a sexual motive.

... “The evidence is substantial and it leads to a simple conclusion: most rapists force victims to have sex because they want sex,” the researchers assert.

Things are changing however.

Contemporary feminist scholars, alert to the limitations of the ‘rape is about power’ dogma, have also risen to the challenge of providing a more nuanced, empirically based and hence useful understanding of rape. For example, a recent paper by Beverly McPhail of the University of Houston seeks to knit together several feminist theories of rape into a new comprehensive model. ...

Rape, she asserts further, “occurs due to multiple motives rather than the single motivation... The multiple motivations include, but are not limited to, sexual gratification, revenge, recreation, power/control, and attempts to achieve or perform masculinity.”

Speaking now as a personal survivor of rape/sexual assault (as a teen, by a known and previously trusted pseudo-family member) I agree with this. I've never bought the idea it's always and only about power and control. There are plenty of ways for people to dominate others. When they choose sex as the method, there's a reason for that.

Note I'm not saying that means it's acceptable. Not even remotely.

I must also tell you, you're mistaken to believe all sexual relationships involve elements of force. I've been with my spouse for close to 30 years now. Never once has he forced, even slightly, and he's clearly horrified at being asked if he's ever even thought about it or wanted to force himself on anyone. "Good god no! That would be the last thing I'd want!" was his response. I've known him long enough to believe him. I'm close friends with several men who share this abhorrence, who I'm close enough to them and their partners to know. Our circle includes people involved in various communities, sex-positive, polyamory, alternative and sacred sexuality. The concepts of respect and consent are core concepts among these communities, and the people share those values, regardless of gender.

In other words, rape, or even the urge to force yourself on anyone, is not just about sex or being horney either. Many people experience sexual rejection, frustration, deprivation, and yet do not rape, or even consider rape. There has to be an element of desire to dominate, control, and disrespect other people which makes some people, mostly men, into rapists and predators.

I do believe this is an issue where we can, and should, as a society, put a stop to rape and sexual aggression as the "norm" and teach respect and consent as core values. I do not accept for one second that we have to continue accepting it. The recent downfall of multiple powerful men because of it is perhaps a signal that times are changing.

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

That's the key, exactly as you stated. As long as the safe word -- which essentially means stop, too much, too far, I withdraw my consent -- is known and fully respected, the 'victim' is in full control of the encounter. They can end it with a word, and they know it. This involves a level of trust in the partner that is a huge reach, and not one I'm personally interested in exploring. But as I'm close friends with people who are, I've learned to understand the dynamics and the level of trust involved and they talk about exploring power - having it, and using it, and sharing it. The dom/sub roles are not really what they appear to be.

And yeah it's completely different from real life, dangerous kind of dominance and control, as in domestic abuse and violence in a family or a couple. Or a sexual aggressor who does not have uncomplicated, clear consent and goes on and does what he wants, without concern for the other person.

It's not even similar. The opposite, in fact.

#2.1.2.2.1.2.1.1.1 Rape is about using the power of sex to bully another person. I feel there is a fine but deep distinction between pretending to bully someone for a time, with both parties knowing it is temporary and can be ended at any moment via the safe word, and bullying someone for real.

that is not to say that all acts of BDSM are bullying; many are not. Some could fall into that category. But the temporary nature of the acts, and the presence of the safeword, makes a fine but deep distinction for me.