Nancy Pelosi floats the 25th Amendment

Pelosi sets stage for NEW way to oust Trump – using 25th Amendment to rule him incapacitated amid his bout with Covid’, 8 Oct, 2020, RT.com

Given that the explanation of what ‘involuntary removal’ at the bottom, I’d thought Nancy at 80 might be as bonkers as Biden by now. And yes, she appears to be talking about POTUS. You decide what it's really all about... (And sorry this post ain't close to ready for Prime Time™.)

“The comments came after Pelosi had been discussing negotiations on a Covid-19 relief bill with Trump. She didn't elaborate on her tease about the 25th Amendment, which provides constitutional guidelines for replacing a president who is killed, incapacitated or resigns, saying she wanted to keep Thursday's discussion focused on Covid-19 relief legislation.

However, it soon emerged that Pelosi and Democrat Congressman Jamie Raskin will hold a press conference on Friday to discuss legislation for the new commission to ensure "effective and uninterrupted leadership in the highest office in the executive branch of government," according to a media advisory.”

“Such an ouster would presumably be complicated and time-consuming because the president can challenge such a decision, which would require a two-thirds vote of Congress to force a transition of power. Pelosi would need to persuade Senate Republicans to go along with creating a body to sign off on declaring Trump incapacitated, and Vice President Mike Pence would have to agree to the move.”

Now this is the Tweet that assumes it’s about Herr Trump:

“Several Congressional Republicans vowed to block any efforts by Pelosi to oust Trump through the 25th Amendment, including at least two who said it’s time to remove her as House speaker. “First it was the Russia hoax, then sham impeachment,” Representative Doug Collins tweeted. “Now she’s trying the 25th Amendment because he fully recovered from the coronavirus? We won’t let her get away with it.”

The following day, today: ‘It’s to ‘replace Joe Biden with Kamala Harris’: Trump reacts to Pelosi’s 25th amendment commission with claim of a hidden plot
9 Oct, 2020, RT.com

“Soon after Rep. Nancy Pelosi introduced a commission that would allow Congress to remove a mentally unfit president, Donald Trump tweeted a claim its ulterior motive is to replace Democratic candidate Joe Biden with Kamala Harris.
“This is not about President Trump,” Speaker of the House Pelosi said when announcing the legislation on Friday. “He will face the judgment of the voters. But he shows the need for us to create a process for future presidents.”
Instead, the commission is needed to give “some comfort to people” about government stability, Pelosi (D-California) insisted.

Some, however, were not convinced the commission is meant as just an additional safety mechanism in the time of the Covid-19 pandemic. Pelosi’s assurance the legislation wasn’t about Trump has quickly sparked a theory that such a commission could be used to replace 77-year-old Joe Biden – whose own mental stability has been steadily questioned – should he win the election next month.
President Trump himself floated that theory on Twitter shortly after Pelosi’s announcement.
“Crazy Nancy Pelosi is looking at the 25th Amendment in order to replace Joe Biden with Kamala Harris. The Dems want that to happen fast because Sleepy Joe is out of it!!!” Trump wrote.”
..........................................................
“Under the 25th Amendment, a president can be stripped of their authority if they are deemed unfit for some reason to carry out their duties. This requires a two-thirds vote from both houses. Pelosi’s bill, however, would make this potential commission the determining body about a president’s fitness.
Pelosi has questioned the health of the president since he was diagnosed with Covid-19 and left Walter Reed Medical Center. She accused him just this week of being in an “altered state.”

FWIW: 'Nancy Pelosi unveils bill to create 25th Amendment commission to analyze Trump', Steven Nelson, Oct. 8, 2020, nypost.com

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was that Trump demanded hospital release because he feared Pence and Republicans would invoke the 25th.

He's not at all concerned about wolf crying Pelosi bringing this up. And this time Pelosi may be right and Trump is drugged up and bonkers, but whenever has she been right on pulling a trigger? I'd say never.

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@Marie
If Biden wins she'll invoke the 25 and replace Biden immediately after the inauguration. After all, the 25th is to replace the President and she doesn't have the time to get Trump. OTOH if Trump wins, which is quite possible since the Democrats do not control enough secretaries of state in red/purple states to flip the election, President Pence will almost certainly overturn Roe, thereby giving the Democrats billions in fundraising.

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On to Biden since 1973

@doh1304 the Speaker of the House doesn't have the authority to invoke the 25th to remove an incapacitated POTUS. The power is exclusive to the VP AND a majority of the cabinet. The VP then becomes the acting POTUS.

To resume office, el loco POTUS only has to submit a declaration to the President pro tempore of the Senate and Speaker of the House that he/she has found her/his marbles. The VP and his/her sidekicks have four days to submit their written declaration that the POTUS remains el loco. Congress then decides but requires a two-thirds vote to continue with the VP as acting POTUS.

If Biden should win, he could step down, either permanently or temporarily, right after his inauguration. Otherwise, Harris couldn't act until there's a Biden cabinet, and we know the Senate Republicans can slow walk that when they choose to do so. Jill and Joe would be no more willing to accept that than Nancy and Ron would have. And unless Joe is totally gaga, Harris would never get that 2/3 in both chambers.

If Pence somehow manages to become POTUS, he can't make Roe disappear. Only the SC can do that or Congress and the States via a constitutional amendment. The latter isn't going to happen. And the semi-sane Congressional Republicans fear a SC reversal on Roe as much as Democrats do.

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wendy davis's picture

@Marie

a bit to follow your logic here?

If Biden should win, he could step down, either permanently or temporarily, right after his inauguration. Otherwise, Harris couldn't act until there's a Biden cabinet, and we know the Senate Republicans can slow walk that when they choose to do so.

And unless Joe is totally gaga, Harris would never get that 2/3 in both chambers.

For the sake of argument, why couldn't the Camel nominate cabinet members, and although i'd needed to look it up: all it still takes is a simple majority of the Senate to confirm.

slow-walking for the sheer cussdeness of it i do get. but i'm also mindful of the Rising video snoopy had put up with Kopmala bragging truthfully that wall street loves their ticket, as do 999 military generals, etc. i also recall that 38 republican former nat sec heads endorsed them. what's not to love? hell, they could re-appoint gina haspel to head the CIA for all i know.

wish i remembered how the senate votes went for DT's cabinet and cabinet-level appts.

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@wendy davis gives the power to the VP WITH a majority of the cabinet. IOW, the VP cannot act alone. As VP, Harris wouldn't have the power to nominate cabinet members; only the POTUS can do that. iirc, cabinet members submit a letter of resignation after a presidential election. Between the election and inauguration, the incoming POTUS chooses those he/she intends to nominate, but those aren't official. They have to be nominated by a sitting POTUS and confirmed by the Senate which can take some time. When the Senate is friendly, the relevant committee can hold confirmation hearings and approve the nomination before the inauguration. (That was the process in Jan 2009 for Hillary Clinton.) However, the full Senate can't vote on the nomination until after the inauguration. Later that same day is fine. There's often a lag time between an outgoing cabinet Secretary and the confirmation of a new Secretary. In that event, the new POTUS appoints an Acting Secretary. Often the most senior official in the department because that's not too controversial and it's assumed that such persons are qualified to handle the day to day duties of the job. The 25th is silent as to whether or not acting Secretaries are equal to a Secretary for removing a POTUS, but again, only a POTUS can appoint an acting Secretary. Otherwise the position is vacant.

Section 4 of the 25th is cleverly written to minimize the risk of a coup by a rogue VP and some cabal. Note, the VP doesn't become President, only Acting President. This differs from Section 1 - removal (impeachment and conviction), resignation, or death of a President - where the VP becomes President and takes the oath of office.

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wendy davis's picture

@Marie

Note, the VP doesn't become President, only Acting President

, even if biden were to abdicate.

may i beg for more paragraph breaks? my crap eyes go crossed when there aren't. sometimes to make sense of comments i need to copy/paste them into my current word doc, then add the white spaces. i know few here have a similar problem.

comedy: RT has a piece up claiming the speaker and her hubbie just bought some block of Crowd strike (a $million). (dinnae click in)

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@wendy davis (see Section 1 of the 25th) the VP becomes President. Same as death or removal from office.

No provision in Section 4 for the President to be removed from office. He/she remains President; just not acting in that capacity until he/she can re-assume the office in accordance with the other provisions in Section 4. If the VP plus a majority of the cabinet object to the re-assumption, the Senate and House become the deciders. If two/thirds of the House and Senate side with the VP plus cabinet, the VP continues as Acting President. Two-thirds is a high threshold.

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wendy davis's picture

@Marie

abdicates temporarily. but the pelosi/raskin bill, according to RT, formulates what this means: “such other body as Congress may by law provide” to govern the process of succession should a president become “incapacitated.”

raskin's 2017 bill would have made it 'a permanent body'.

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@wendy davis during the great pandemic and economic collapse. Instead let's work on a bill to oust Trump even though it won't pass this Senate. Even if he did pass the Senate, Trump would veto it and no way could she get two-thirds in both chambers to override it.

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wendy davis's picture

@Marie

thinking; i like it. somehow or other it seems that i know little about Pence save for his being a fundie Xianist with a halo. an his beady eyes, of course. ; )

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Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

Notice that in any event the VP must request that the President be relieved of office. The President may get back his office by stating that no inability exists, unless 2/3 of Congress votes against it. At least that's how I read it.

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Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.

wendy davis's picture

@The Wizard

fact about the VP (pence) in the text; perhaps i'd blown it, sorry, if so. but here's the thing: one place you'd want supremely fuzzy/enigmatic language is the 25th amendment:

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives, etc.

Cornell U. Law on the 25th and article 4.

zo: this oped at RT.com titled: ‘Deep State’ much? Pelosi and Raskin’s 25th Amendment body would let unelected bureaucrats override the will of American peopleRT.com

the key paragraphs:

'In addition to paving the way for a Harris administration, the proposed commission to govern the usurpation of presidential powers would create a ‘Deep State’-like cabal, including former officials, to gate-keep the White House.

The pompously named Commission on Presidential Capacity to Discharge the Powers and Duties of Office, unveiled on Friday by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-California) and Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Maryland) is technically based on the provision in the 25th Amendment of the US Constitution, allowing for “such other body as Congress may by law provide” to govern the process of succession should a president become “incapacitated.”

With just weeks left till the November 3 election, and zero chance of the Republican-majority Senate or President Donald Trump endorsing the proposal, it’s unclear at first why the Democrats would unveil it now.
...................................
That Harris could become president without winning a single delegate in the primaries – having dropped out before they even started – seems an irony completely lost on the media and the party normally harping on about “our democracy,” norms and traditions.

No less intriguing than the “what” of the commission is the “how.” Raskin’s proposal envisions a 17-member panel, with 16 members appointed by congressional leaders of both parties electing the last one. Half the appointees would be physicians and psychiatrists, while the other eight would be chosen from the pool of former government officials: presidents, vice-presidents, surgeons-general, and heads of the departments of State, Treasury, Defense and Justice.

Does this not resemble “a system composed of high-level elements within the intelligence services, military, security, judiciary…”? That is literally the description of “Deep State” (derin devlet) in Turkey, as articulated by journalist Mike Lofgren a couple years ago.'

i'd tried rather lazily to find thetext, only found pelosi's and raskin's comments about their bill, yawned a bit and backed out.

but according to cbs news:

"Asked why he was introducing the bill now, Raskin said there was never a good time to introduce such legislation, but "this situation has focused everyone's mind" on the 25th Amendment.

Raskin previously introduced a similar bill in 2017 to impanel a group of physicians and retired public officials to determine whether the president was mentally and physically fit for office..

aha! the link goes to raskin's 2017 press release (HR 1987): (in part)

Section 4 of the 25th Amendment empowers Congress to establish a permanent “body” that can declare that the President is “unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.” Raskin’s bill establishes this independent nonpartisan body: the Oversight Commission on Presidential Capacity.

In emergency situations, Congress could pass a concurrent resolution requiring the Commission to examine the President, determine his/her ability to execute the powers and duties of the office, and report its findings to Congress. If presidential incapacity exists, the Vice President would immediately assume the role of Acting President.

The 25th Amendment was adopted 50 years ago, but Congress has never set up the body it calls for to determine presidential fitness in the event of physical or psychological incapacity. Now is the time to do it,” said Raskin.

Ten members of the Commission would be selected by congressional leadership. The Speaker of the House, House Minority Leader, Senate Majority Leader, and Senate Minority Leader each select one physician and one psychiatrist to serve on the Commission. Additionally, each party selects a retired statesperson (e.g., former Presidents, Vice Presidents, Attorneys and Surgeons General, Secretaries of State, Defense, and Treasury) to serve. The 10 appointed members then select an 11th member, who acts as the Chair of the Commission.

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@wendy davis be given power to decide is the very essence of the deep state. Our very own star chamber that will be appointed by those who already in no way represent "the people" will decide. And as you point out, the text of the 25th does indeed have a provision for just such a body who will have the power to decide. Once that commission is implemented, would that ever go away? What of elections in that case, do they really matter? I thought I had read there might be Corporate representatives on that commission but maybe that's just my suspicious and cynical nature, although far too many former government officials go right back to Corporate America after leaving office, so maybe that's just a matter of semantics in reality. Sure, no problem with that, right? Get rid of El Rumpo or Joe Biden AFTER the "votes" are cast and America will go back to the great, normal country it was, never mind that pesky democracy.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

wendy davis's picture

@lizzyh7

(Nebojsa Malic) had also snarked:

The only thing missing here is “organized crime” – but then, given the role of intelligence services and congressional Democrats such as Pelosi and Raskin in ‘Russiagate,’ that’s arguably not much of a stretch.

Purely for the sake of argument, imagine the Biden-Harris ticket winning the election, and then a “bipartisan” commission consisting of former Obama and George W. Bush administration officials decide that Biden is suffering from suddenly discovered dementia, handing the White House to Harris.

Now imagine Trump gets re-elected, and Democrat-dominated Congress overrides Trump’s veto to appoint the same kind of “bipartisan” commission, which then decides both he and Vice-President Mike Pence are somehow “incapacitated,” and regretfully and prayerfully declares it has no choice but to make Pelosi president, under the established order of succession.

the accompanying photo:

but yes, raskin's 2017 proposal was 'a permanent body', although i'd never looked up the text. why now, indeed, mr. raskin? although i'd had to look up star chamber and its current usage: sounds just so. wiki:

However, it became synonymous with social and political oppression through the arbitrary use and abuse of the power it wielded.

'We don't need no stinking elections!'

'If voting mattered, it would be illegal.' ~ emma goldman

the only thing the Amerika has to do with Democracy™..is exporting it to other nations via war and war by other means.

thanks for weighing in, lizzyh7. (i'd never noticed the H before, sorry.) ; )

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snoopydawg's picture

Instead, the commission is needed to give “some comfort to people” about government stability,

This is giving anti Trump-rs another blanket to soothe their fears of Trump. How long did people tell Pelosi to impeach Trump before she finally brought her weak case against him? This was the 1st blanket she gave them. "Calm down.....shhhhhh......"

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

wendy davis's picture

@snoopydawg

call to ukraine was worthy of impeachment, wasn't it? yeah, #WhataWasteofTime. you might think the Ds actually like having him in office as they can virtue-signal their disagreements while voting with the Rs so much of the time. i suppose the one that slayed me most was the Ds offering more money for the military budget than Boss Tweet even asked for.

on the other side of the aisle, dementia joe is a proponent of giving more money to the police, yanno, to encourage more 'professionalism' or some such rubbish.

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Send Pelosi to Gitmo
Ballots not power grabs.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

wendy davis's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

explanation, please:

Send Pelosi to Gitmo

unless it's just a polemical device.

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@wendy davis
but she deserves it

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

wendy davis's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

agree with you. ; ) but of course i'm thinking of andy worthington's clients who were torture there, including some in mistaken identities. but she woulddn't be permitted to color co-ordinate her masks with her daily suits: just orange jumpsuits.

anhyoo, file under 'even a dim bulb lights once in awhile': i looked at raskin's house site, and found his press release. none of the pdfs of the text even include the house bill number, for gawd's sake, but:

'Section 4 of the 25th Amendment empowers Congress to establish a permanent “body” that, with the concurrence of the Vice President, can declare that the President is “unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.” Raskin’s bill establishes this independent nonpartisan body: The Commission on Presidential Capacity to Discharge the Powers and Duties of Office.
............................
“The 25th Amendment was adopted 50 years ago, but Congress has never set up the body it calls for to determine presidential fitness in the event of physical or psychological incapacity. Now is the time to do it,” said Raskin.

The Speaker of the House, House Minority Leader, Senate Majority Leader, and Senate Minority Leader each select four physicians and four psychiatrists to serve on the Commission. Additionally, the Democratic and Republican leaders of each chamber will select, by party, four retired statespersons (e.g., former Presidents, Vice Presidents, Attorneys and Surgeons General, Secretaries of State, Defense, and Treasury) to serve. The 16 appointed members then select a 17th member, who acts as the Chair of the Commission. In order to avoid conflicts of interest and both civilian and military chain of command issues, none of the members can be current elected officials, federal employees, or members of the active or reserve military.
...........................
The bill is cosponsored by the following Members: Jerrold Nadler, Carolyn Maloney, Eleanor Holmes Norton, Gwen Moore, Val Demings, Veronica Escobar, Mary Gay Scanlon, Mark Pocan, Pramila Jayapal, Madeleine Dean, David Cicilline, Diana DeGette, Adrian Espaillat, Dwight Evans, Donna Shalala, Ted Lieu, Earl Bluemenauer, Jan Schakowsky, James P. McGovern, Henry C. “Hank” Johnson, Jr., Sylvia R. Garcia, Joe Neguse, Kweisi Mfume, Anna Eshoo, Zoe Lofgren, Gerald E. Connolly, Deb Haaland, J. Luis Correa, Mark DeSaulnier, Ted Deutch, Karen Bass, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Nydia M. Velazquez, Eric Swalwell, Norma Torres, Bonnie Watson Coleman, and Steve Cohen.'

this is their FAQ page, and i'd thought early this a.m. i'd seen another enigmatic either/or, but i cannae spot it now, although this is interesting:

The CPC Act also establishes expedited procedures for Congress to consider a concurrent resolution empowering the Commission to examine the President and report its findings to Congress.

break's over. back to sunday chores.

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RantingRooster's picture

commission because congress can't do it's job.

These are not the droids you're looking for...
obi-wan.jpg

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C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote

wendy davis's picture

@RantingRooster

no less. may i ask which job congress should have done? yes, that's a loaded Q, as they've done so much they SHOULD NEVER HAVE DONE as far as fucking over the lowly working class and further immiserating the poor.

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well demonstrated fact that both sides of the aisle want to get the power of the vote out of our hands and into theirs. They just don't trust us little people to make the right decisions with our votes, so they are going to second guess them and make corrections. Just think of all the vote shaming that has been going on since 2016, mostly by the Dems.
What Nancy has proposed is one of the most dangerous ideas to come down the pike in many years.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02 or her staff can't even read the 25th. The Speaker cannot initiate the provisions of Section 4. She can and has initiated an impeachment; another dumb move on her part.

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@Marie

you would think he would have told Nancy that she can't make this proposal.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

wendy davis's picture

@Fishtroller 02

in hell that it'll fly in either of her/their iterations, as i'd posited in the OP: she may be as bonkers as biden. i can't speak to this, though, as there are so many other ideas in contention (if not fait accompli):

What Nancy has proposed is one of the most dangerous ideas to come down the pike in many years.

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