My Answer To The Conundrum
The 2016 Presidential Race in the United States has devolved into this - Voting America asking in the race between Trump vs Clinton: Who presents the smaller probability of igniting national and/or global chaos? Who am I least afraid of? Who presents the best chance of survival and making it to a course correction in 2020? Who is the least corrupt? Who is influenced by foreign governments less? Who has fewer corporate bribes in their till? Who alienates me the least?
It's absurd, but those are the types of questions being debated in living rooms and blogs and on Facebook around the country. Citizens of the US seem united in one great national opinion about this election - polls show they dislike and mistrust both candidates just about equally and have approximately the same regard for the Parties and systems that spawned them.
Progressive Democrats and Independents know well why they were/are for Sanders and rejecting of Clinton and have now, in addition to policy differences, a lengthy grudge book about the tactics deployed against both their favored candidate Sanders, and themselves by the DNC.
A number of Republicans feel that in allowing Donald Trump to become their Party's standard bearer, regardless of the long catalogue of openly racist, sexist, bigoted, and xenophobic stances taken by him on their stage, that they have basically forfeited any pretense they ever had of claiming to represent some moral high ground of Middle America and have mutated into the Party of the Amoral Majority.
In addition to the issues above, the Parties have also presented voters with a Burdians Ass dilemma in that Clinton portends disaster abroad (foreign policy) while Trump portends disaster at home (domestic issues) and voters are frozen in place trying to decide which disaster alarms them least.
I have to admit that I'm pretty astonished that some former Bernie supporters are toying with the idea of voting for Trump after deciding after a thorough review that he presents less danger of triggering some kind of global holocaust based on his isolationist tendencies. According to their thinking, while it's true that he has thin skin and a hair trigger temper, there is still a better chance of him not engaging us in a chain reaction of disaster then Hillary Clinton presents who is already (according to some sources) laying the groundwork for more international misadventures. Their thinking is we can survive some internal upheaval, but at least we aren't going to nuke ourselves.
Do I agree with this thinking? No, I don't because IMO it is based on one major fallacy - that we only have two choices. This is what the Party's would like people to think and this is what the media would like people to think, but it is not the case.
Their are FOUR CHOICES in this election. There is a major Party candidate for both sides and there is a minor Small Party candidate for each side. The fight for the Main Event on the bill is Clinton Vs Trump. The under card is Stein vs. Johnson.
There is a way to both vote one's values AND send a message of disgust and repudiation to the Party's that have put us in this situation. And it doesn't even involve "lesser evil" worksheets, or at least they are much smaller. It is simply to ignore the Main Event.
Why not vote for your candidate of choice on the under card? Ignore Clinton vs. Trump and make the race between Stein vs. Johnson. Doing so would turn the political world upside down. Doing so would shock the horse-race, sensationalist media with the knowlege that we know they are full of sh*t and contribute very little of value to this process. Doing so would show to the nation and the world that the electorate will not allow its choice to be so conscribed and restricted as the media and Parties and TBTB would have it. Doing so would demonstrate by our actions we retain free will and are forever rejecting defensive, reactionary, strategic, lesser evil voting.
If any Republicans follow my reasoning, they would vote for Johnson. As a former Dem/Progressive, I will be voting for Jill Stein in the Presidential election. I can live with that. Literally.
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Note: Your vote is yours to do with as you will, vote or not vote for the person your reasoning has led you to. This essay is strictly an analysis of my own thoughts that have led me to my personal decision.
Comments
I think it does matter which evil wins.
If Hillary wins, they will be rewarded for who they are and what they did. It will reinforce the belief that they do not have to change to win. IF we need to work within and take over one of the two parties, we have a better chance of taking over the Ds than the Rs. What would we do with all of those evangelicals?
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Convert 'em
to Science!
Edit; totally wrong thread! Got no idea how we got here. Oops.
Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .
Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .
If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march
I have been defending Jill at TOP and getting clobbered.
This morning, I was issued a warning by their Admin that I was not allowed to flag in a thread with a commenter who I was debating. The fact that I am laying down the facts and they are being a jerk, calling me names, and being sexist apparently is all irrelevant. The rules are suspended if you object to them doing it to yourself, apparently.
So if anyone would like to see the discussion, uprate, flag, add their own comments, please feel free. It's at http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1554595/62875531#comment_62875531
Of course, if you have sworn off over there or if it will just raise your BP, then please do not go there. I completely understand. I think I can hold my own against a bunch of want-to-know-nothings.
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Never going back there.
I even shun any links that would lead me there. No thanks. This cat has shaken the dust of TOP off her paws and is gone, baby, gone.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
I was only there for 10 months so it was easier for me
to leave and never go back. Like you, I don't follow the links either.
"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"
That's fine, really. I will defend Jill against smears for as
long as I am able. Then folks will have to look elsewhere.
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They got nothing on Jill Stein and they know it
So they got to invent stuff about her being anti-vax in their usual, disgusting fashion. What's next, Jill Bros?
Beware the bullshit factories.
Yep. It's smears redux.
Ignoring the fact that Bern would have won if there hadn't been election fraud, they think that smears keep people firmly in their camp when actually it drives us away.
Edit: One = won. Sheesh.
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I'm sure the admin would have
I'm sure the admin would have left you alone if you were defending Clinton. Because that's how that place works and has for years.
Unless people are extremely proactive, I have been flagged
by people I've been arguing with and the flags stuck. They would have had to tell others that they were arguing with me in the moment, as fast as the flags have flown after I've commented. So yes, I do believe that if you defend Hill there, you get to flag the person in opposition to you.
Even though of course, back when I argued for Bernie, I also stuck to facts, not name calling. And was careful not to diss Her Heinous. Didn't matter. I was commenting "in a manner against site rules".
I reported the flag abuse, but doubt it went anywhere.
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It's brave of you to defend Jill over at TOP
I fought the pie wars over there for years. But after Markos jumped up and down on the scale, he changed the nature of the debate, essentially by killing it. The mouth-breathing partisans have won: the stupid people have taken over. TOP is worse than most of the conservative blogs anymore, since at least conservative blogs mostly still permit criticism of Trump. It is a measure of how far TOP has fallen that RedState is more intellectually honest than they are.
Let them lurk over here and bad-mouth us to their fellows. I really don't care. I've stopped trying to reason with those people, and now barely look in. If you want to stay, at least invite some of the more reasonable people to look in over here. That would do some good.
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I don't do it for the partisans, of course, but for new lurkers.
I'm mostly over there for what remains of my groups. I mostly avoid political diaries over there, I think most new readers will be able to tell it's an echo chamber. But something caught my eye, and then in the comments the Jill smear. So I stuck up for her. Not advocating for her as a candidate, of course. Just insisting that she is not an anti-vaxxer.
I send people from there to here ALL the time! I usually send them a private message so I don't get jumped all over in the comment threads. I invite when they're being snotty and chasing people away, and yet if I mention c99 in Comments they yell at me for stealing their readers. Yet they're in the process of chasing them away! Another of their Sybil moments, as Maven I think it was called them.
"Go away -- no, come back, don't go over there! -- OK, we've abused you more, now go away -- no, not to there!"
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Good for you
It was interesting yesterday when we saw an influx of new sign-ups like we haven't seen in some time. Several were names I recognized from TOP. Something happened over there, I guess, to chase some long time users over here. I suspect we'll see a lot more of that. Thanks for sticking it out and issuing those private invitations.
The hysteria over there about c99p is comical. I see it most of the time if I delve into comment threads and read a bit. Makes them nervous to see so many familiar "faces" over here, and to read what we write. I'm happy with that.
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I think I only invited one person yesterday, so it wasn't me,
or not entirely, LOL! Unless a lot of people read those comments I made about Jill and the comments back to me dissing this place so the crap actually pushed them over here. That would be fun!
I think it might be that the place was all yay convention, yay Hill, boo Trump yesterday. It was a true Wreck List, IMO, boringly repetitive.
Of course, I also could have missed something.
I agree, I LOVE the comments over there about here! They talk about us almost as much as we talk about them, and we're the little inoffensive ones! That they stalk me over to here and then return there to talk about me cracks me up. My fans! All publicity is good publicity.
Also, there are issues I won't raise over there because I won't invade Kos' space with topics he doesn't want discussed. But if someone else drags it in, it's not my problem!
I think those that still retain any sanity must regret and rue the loss of so many excellent writers. Their loss, our gain! It makes them bitter.
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I think OPOL
posted a link to here on his FB page. That may have had something to do with the new signups.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Self-Defence is not allowed there, you need to have
your own groupies swoop down on your adversary. I remember in one green debate, someone appearing and saying to the rest of her group, my opponents, "why didn't you alert me earlier to come here."
To thine own self be true.
So they say, and I don't really see why that's a rule. But I am
pretty sure that I've sometimes been flagged so fast, it had to be the commenter.
Is it really better to have others pile on than to have the commenter defend herself?
At any rate, since I was scolded, I thought I'd bring my own "groupies".
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Very first flag I ever received was from my opponent
Or so I believe. Maybe he thought I flagged him, but someone else had. He comes here (or used to). Not going to sit silently by as a man implies that rape survivors and victims of sexual harassment are all lying because a couple of survivors identified the wrong man who had the same facial tattoo as their attacker. I'll wear that flag as a badge of honor, tyvm!
Is it really better to have
I think it's disgusting - basically gang warfare. But by the standards of DKos culture, yes, it's better to have others do the work for you - whether your position is righteous or not.
The original rule was not to HR the person you were
debating - based on the idea that you were too heated/emotional to be fair.
BS
To thine own self be true.
I see. I can see where in theory that might be the case, but I
think if someone is just calling names, anyone, including the person they're calling names, should be able to flag. So they should allow exceptions.
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#EstablishmentExit
I'm sure there are a lot of longtime voters in both the Democratic and Republican parties who feel that way.
Beware the bullshit factories.
That is really what is happening
it explains Brexit, and it explains both Sanders and Trump. Everyone in the 1% are running around trying to figure out how to keep the game going now that the proles are onto the con.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
Brexit won because the people in the cities thrown over by
Thatcher and the Blair version of the Labor Party sent a message that they were sick of their deplorable conditions. These were generally older people who had seen their standards of living decline steeply.
Those that voted to Remain were in the London and Manchester areas, the college educated, and the young.
People in the majority were fed up with being fed up and being regarded as disposable people by those who were benefitting from neoliberalism.
I think it's the same dynamic fueling Trump. Combine the economic losers with the young who supported Sanders, and I think there's a clear majority of voters now without a home until they learn of the Greens. And, the Greens need to do a better job in presenting a program of good, solid, well paying jobs.
"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"
I'm mulling Domestic vs International damage
For me it's no longer about which is the lesser evil, I'm trying to figure out who will inflict the least harm on the rest of the world. If Trump ends up being the greater evil, but it all falls on the American people rather than overseas (which will be where Clinton's death toll will fall) then that is the morally superior option as those responsible bear the brunt, rather than the innocent.
And yeah, lesser of two evil utilitarianism cuts both ways.
Trump could easily be a disaster in an international crisis
I'm not sure I agree about him being better for foreign policy than Shill and her awful, but knowledgable, policies.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Some interesting recent public statements by Putin on Youtube
July 24th 2016 and despite the title June 19 2016
I think the "smart" Truman 2.0 encirclement of Russia & China backed by Obama/Clinton inevitably drops us into Putin's nightmare scenario.
Instead of another generation of nuclear weapons and more weapons spending let's acknowledge the giant challenges facing us and the planet. Let's decide to work together to solve them instead of fighting over a shrinking pool of resources until....
I am in awe of the way
you flesh it out, Phoebe. It conveys my thinking, as well. We, the people, have the ability, nay, the power in our hands to upend the American political system. I know Raggedy Andy and I are already walking down the third party path. The establiehment will not be rewarded for bad behavior by us.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Until further notice
I refuse to vote for an incumbent in any race big or small.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
I can't vote for either one
of them. They are both equally undesirable, albeit in entirely different ways. So now the Democrats (and Republicans!} are saying, "If you don't vote for Clinton, that means you are helping to elect Trump". That's utter bullshit. The truth is that if I vote for Clinton, it means I am helping to elect Clinton. Which I refuse to do. My vote has got nothing to do with Trump, but if that puffed-up windbag is able defeat Hillary Clinton, it'll be her own fault, not mine.
Using Donald Trump as a threat, to coerce people into supporting Hillary, I see that as a form of extortion, and I'm not buying it. People want to say that's being a "purist"? Not according to Mark Twain:
" Shall you say, the best good of the country demands allegiance to party? Shall you also say it demands that a man kick his truth and his conscience into the gutter, and become a mouthing lunatic, besides?” –Samuel Clemens 1887 "
native
My favorite Twain quote also applies
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I just read through this entire thread
I think it's the most responses I have ever had here at caucus99%. Without exception, All the comments were thoughtful and informed and insightful and funny and CIVIL, even from the folks who come to completely different conclusions than me. I don't mean to appear surprised, because I'm not, that has been my experience here from my first day around the Ides of March.
I really think this is one of the best places on the internet for people to exchange thoughts, ideas and tactics that hopefully will improve our shared fate on this planet in this country. I am so proud to be a writer and a commenter here.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
A Libertarian for Stein
I typically consider myself a libertarian (lower case, not a party member) but I'm leaning toward voting for Stein. I'd have voted for Bernie if Hillary and her cronies hadn't put their thumbs on the scale.
While I'm personally libertarian and would love to live in a world where government wasn't needed because people simply treated each other fairly, that's not where we are as a society right now. We need to shift well to the left just to get back to a sane center starting point before we even entertain notions of self-governing, and that's what I was hoping Bernie would do. I do hope the Green party uses the chaos of this election to get things together and pull in a lot of supporters to become a real party that can bring in some numbers.
@BoberFett, I always thought most people
only want the amount of government that is necessary to run the machinery of the Republic. No one wants armies of bureaucrats and unneeded regulations. Sadly, I have come to realize that I am the only person who can figure out the correct proportions*.
*My inner Trump
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
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