Open Thread - Friday, September 2, 2016

Greetings fellow Caucusapiens and other species reading these words. I am off on an adventure this weekend. I driving Sweetie to see her mother, brother and sister. I am full of anxiety, but I know this may be the last time.

Stephen Hawking: 'There is no heaven; it's a fairy story'

he belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.

In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.

Hawking, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death, human purpose and our chance existence in an exclusive interview with the Guardian today.

The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its symptoms arising, an outlook that turned the young scientist to Wagner, but ultimately led him to enjoy life more, he has said, despite the cloud hanging over his future.

It would be nice to see the people who have left. I know that I sure would want to get back up with my Sweetie.

Morality Exists Despite Religion

Morality is within us independently of God.

Many religious folks argue that while science can explain much of the natural world, some issues are simply outside of the scientific realm, the classic example of which would be morality. The late Harvard evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould formalized this position via his Non-Overlapping Magisteria Principle. The argument goes something like this: Without a final arbiter (ergo God), how could humans have an absolute sense of what is right or wrong? Morality would apparently disintegrate into a relativistic mélange of “arbitrary” rules of conduct. I shall explore this position in today’s post.

1. In two earlier posts (see here and here), I demonstrated the extraordinarily contradictory positions taken by religions on every imaginable issue of human import, let alone the fact that there are thousands of religions and Gods. Which God/religion should one use to guide his/her moral system?

Let’s take a few examples: Is homosexuality an immoral abomination? Some Anglican and Lutheran denominations condone same-sex unions whereas the mainstream position of the Abrahamic religions is that homosexuality is deeply sinful and immoral. What about mating systems? What does God consider to be moral in this domain? Well, if you are Mormon or Muslim, God finds it perfectly moral that a man might take multiple women as wives while Judaism and Christianity believe in monogamous unions as sanctified by God. What about the moral precepts associated with the treatment of animals? Again, God seems to have completely different moral precepts depending on whether you are Jewish (Kosher slaughter rituals), Muslim (Halal slaughter rituals), Jain (the use of brooms whilst walking to ensure that you do not inadvertently step on insects), or Hindu (do not slaughter cows). What about the moral codes associated with the treatment of individuals arising from different faiths? Are we all equal under God’s dominion? Read the precepts of Sharia Law and let us know if God is equally appreciative of Muslims and the Kuffar (non-Muslims). As a matter of fact, according to the Sharia, a moral transgression (and associated legal punishment) is more or less severe depending on the faith of the perpetrator and victim. This does not sound very moral according to our Western liberal democratic values. What about the proper treatment of insolent children? The Bible is quite clear…stone them to death. Most contemporary Americans find slavery to be a morally grotesque and repugnant practice. How do we reconcile the latter aversion with the fact that the Abrahamic religions are all quite clear that the practice of slavery is perfectly acceptable under specific contexts (and hence moral)? I could list an endless list of additional examples stemming from the 10,000 documented religions but I suspect that you get the point.

ETHICS WITHOUT GODS

One of the first questions Atheists are asked by true believers and doubters alike is, “If you don’t believe in God, there’s nothing to prevent you from committing crimes, is there? Without the fear of hell-fire and eternal damnation, you can do anything you like, can’t you?”

INTRODUCTION

It is hard to believe that even intelligent and educated people could hold such an opinion, but they do! It seems never to have occurred to them that the Greeks and Romans, whose gods and goddesses were something less than paragons of virtue, nevertheless led lives not obviously worse than those of the Baptists of Alabama! Moreover, pagans such as Aristotle and Marcus Aurelius - although their systems are not suitable for us today - managed to produce ethical treatises of great sophistication, a sophistication rarely if ever equaled by Christian moralists.

The answer to the questions posed above is, of course, "Absolutely not!" The behavior of Atheists is subject to the same rules of sociology, psychology, and neurophysiology that govern the behavior of all members of our species, religionists included. Moreover, despite protestations to the contrary, we may assert as a general rule that when religionists practice ethical behavior, it isn't really due to their fear of hell-fire and damnation, nor is it due to their hopes of heaven. Ethical behavior - regardless of who the practitioner may be - results always from the same causes and is regulated by the same forces, and has nothing to do with the presence or absence of religious belief. The nature of these causes and forces is the subject of this essay.

Should Christians Smoke Medical Marijuana?

No—It's a bad Witness

Medical marijuana is certainly helpful for people in great pain, many of whom use the drug in the same way they would use a pain reliever like codeine. The difference between codeine and cannabis is that the latter has a very distinct, largely negative image in culture—an image that carries baggage and connotations Christians must consider if they are thinking of using marijuana, even for medical reasons.

When I was in grad school, several of my colleagues smoked marijuana. I do not doubt that smoking marijuana relieved the aches and pains of my 20-something cohorts. But I wonder if "medical assistance" is the primary reason they were using it. More likely they consumed it in the way Oscar on Arrested Development did—enjoying "primo bud" under the auspices of the legal right to medical marijuana.

In California, the image of marijuana use, even for medical purposes, is mostly a joke. Pot smoking has long been associated with "slackers"—zoned out, disengaged, pleasure-seeking rebels always in search of a high. The image has even given rise to a genre of cinema: the Stoner Film. The image of those who smoke weed in these films is one of laziness, irresponsibility, and mischief.

Thank goodness I do not identify as Christian.

Have a great weekend!

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mhagle's picture

"energy life force of the universe."

When you are with someone when they die, you see the "energy life force of the universe" leave. The matter, molecules, water, physical form, etc. is still there. The thing we call "life" is gone.

Where did it go? I don't know.

I also believe that the "energy life force of the universe" is the thing within all of us that holds kindness, compassion, generosity, and gratitude. It is the light at our core being.

I identify as a franciscan christian (not raised catholic) and see the light at our core being to be the center of all pure religion and non-religion spirituality.

I wish for you a beautiful trip and lovely time with dear ones.

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

Big Al's picture

I'm sitting here thinking how we can stop this. Maybe it's part and parcel of the reality that we live in an oligarchy as the article points out. Maybe to stop the TPP we have to end the oligarchy.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them....

It isn't only physical Weapons of Mass Destruction that fit that description.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

riverlover's picture

And no doubt will be emotional for you all. Best wishes from me. Be safe.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Raggedy Ann's picture

I believe in reincarnation. I believe that I AM The I AM. We are all part of the energy force. I do not consider myself separate from other living beings, thus part of that one energy force. Separating oneself is what religions require, thus naming it "God," and attributing everything we do to either the grace or damnation. Fuck that shit. I am one with all.

I send you positive vibes on your journey. Pleasantry

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

Citizen Of Earth's picture

Of all days, Bernie picks labor day to sing the praises of Hellery. I assume Hellery will have a sniper in the watchtower awaiting her signal should he stray from the talking points. Hahaha.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/bernie-sanders-campaigns-clinton-n...

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Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.

and that the family members involved cherish the memories of it for all their days.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Lookout's picture

Hope you avoid the bad weather from Hermine. I think it is due to hit the Carolinas today.

Whatever people want to think or believe about a god(dess) is fine with me, but religion seems to be a source of great conflict and oppression. Ironic all the death and destruction around the way people worship and believe.

This is the 29,500 year-old and only eleven centimeter tall "Venus von Willendorf", which was found in the Wachau in Lower Austria in 1908

Austrian goddess.jpg

Here's a newer concept of Gaia
goddess.jpg

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Citizen Of Earth's picture

Looks like a promising platform to organize progressive projects.
http://notmeus.us/

This is a quote from reddit explaining what it is.

Hi- I'm another volunteer working on [Not Me Us]. ... It is growing into a central hub to empower all these groups to make their own progressive change: connecting them to legal, technical, educational, logistical, and design resources to help their idea gain traction. It will give the tools, but the work is up to the group or individual.

It is not tied to any campaign or individual. It's a true grassroots community with the hopes of lifting each other up through organization.

Also no direct ties to Our Revolution. Which is good IMO.

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Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.

You never know when you'll snag one of we cynics. You've peaked my curiosity. I will take a look.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Citizen Of Earth's picture

beyond that quoted comment. Might be a valuable resource. Might be another scam. Time will tell.

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Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.

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mimi's picture

"the blind boys" and not to talk. I could have survived without the last song though, but we all sing, so ...

In the Alps the mountain people there say "Grüß Gott" when they hike through the narrow paths and meet some fellow travelers. As a child I often wondered why they say that. I still do, but then, I guess, we feel that it's not that bad to have his company sometimes and start with a simple greeting.

Grüß Gott, NCTim, and safe travel and a safe return.

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Meteor Man's picture

It is also the only song that should be played on the bagpipes. Everything else is a hideous screech.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

thanatokephaloides's picture

Amazing Grace Is Ecumenical and Profound

It is also the only song that should be played on the bagpipes. Everything else is a hideous screech.

Not true. There are numerous pieces which, played with the required mastery, are most beautiful and inspiring music when played on the pipes. "Scotland the Brave" is one example.

But we need not forget that "the pipes" are, first and foremost, a weapon of war.... Wink

[video:https://youtu.be/JwLaDzKFiBY width:560 height:315]

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Debt, living costs among key issues for students at Sonoma State town hall

During the outset of a congressional town hall at the university’s student center, East Bay Rep. Eric Swalwell, D-Pleasanton, told audience members they could text message a specific number with words describing the issues most important to them. Their answers would form a “word cloud” — in which the size of a word varies on how much it is used — projected on screens at either side of the stage.

So Progressive! Ya just gotta believe.

McCuan said Swalwell represents a “new Democratic Party and a new wave,” one more attuned to the needs of millennials and at the forefront of generational change.

New and improved! omg Marketing campaign or Town Hall meeting? You decide.

Ayala Macias said after the meeting she would have preferred more detail on what actions the lawmakers might take moving forward.

“I felt their sympathy, but they didn’t really give me an opportunity to see, ‘OK, this is what we’re going to actually do about it,’ ” she said.

Ding ding ding! It seeped in,
Truth-cropped.jpg
New Democratic Party wave, same as the old wave. Keep digging.

Peace be the journey.
Peace to all in transition.
Peace

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joe shikspack's picture

i hope that many happy and comforting memories are made for you guys over the weekend.

and as the zen master said to the hot dog vendor, "make me one with everything." Smile

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There is a special place for both of you.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Big Al's picture

You're a strong man. I'm glad you have people here to share you and your Sweetie's journey with.

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Big Al's picture

“If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.”

I pledge allegiance
to my family
and the love that keeps us together
One family, under the stars,
indivisible, with happiness and freedom for all

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I read the Bible when a child. I remember a lot, but I don't remember that one.

I have never feared death. I don't worry about an afterlife. Either I will be just gone or I will be surprised, in which case, I might see mom, my grandparents, etc. Either way, I'm okay with it because I really don't believe in eternal damnation.

Thank you for a thought-provoking thread and good music.

My very best wishes for your trip.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

Where in the Bible does it say to stone insolent children? I read the Bible when a child. I remember a lot, but I don't remember that one.

Ask and ye shall receive: (be careful what you ask for!)

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

-- Jewish Scriptures, Deuteronomy 21: 18-21 (KJV)
source

There is a certain irony in the Bible here, as Jesus is known to have applied this very passage to himself in at least two places:

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

-- Christian Scriptures, Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34 (KJV)
source

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Thank you for the warning, but it's not necessary. Learning something is my favorite thing about posting. However, I am not sure I received in this instance.

The language that you quoted from the Bible says nothing about stoning kids for insolence or about stoning children for anything. The language that you quoted is about stoning some other person's son for drunkenness and gluttony, which is stoning people.

The critical issue raised by your quote from the Bible is whether the death penalty is excessive punishment for alcoholism and gluttony. I oppose the death sentence, full stop, so my answer is yes. But that framing is very different from the impression given by a comment like the bible commands stoning of children for insolence.

The way death sentences of those days were carried out, such as stoning and crucifixion, we brutal and public, deliberately so--but I don't think Jews or the Bible invented the methods. And they were carried out by townspeople. Public electric chair executions were not terribly humane, either. We imposed sentences like that on habitual offenders, even if the underlying crime would not have warranted a death penalty.

As far as turning in your own kid, many of us wanted Ben Laden's family to do it; the Mad Bomber's brother did do it; Billy Bulger's brother lost a pension for not doing it.

All that said, I would not offer up even my adult son for punishment for addiction. For rehab if I could not afford to handle it, maybe, but not punishment. However, rehab was unknown then; my upbringing and education is very different from those of parents 8000 years ago; and my son is incredibly well-behaved. Besides, we have Dr. Phil and lots more knowledge of alcoholism today. So, I cannot put myself in the shoes of a parent whose son was an alcoholic and a glutton. Then, they may have thought the cause of alcoholism was choice after choice--what we would consider a willful habitual offender--or, worse, demonic possession.

There was probably some contemporary social background to it. Stealing sheep, chickens, etc. Wreaking havoc on the townspeople while drunk? The Biblical authors would not have had to specify it because their audience was as aware of it as they were, so it's lost to us today, but there undoubted was context. Mind you, I am not defending anything. I am just trying to analyze it even-handedly.

Bottom line, though, the command not about stoning little kids for insolence or even about turning your own little kids over to the "authorities" (townspeople) to be stoned. It is about parents turning over their habitually offending son, probably adult son, to that day's equivalent of the cops for what we today would consider stubborn, but treatable, conditions.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

While I do relish me some unintentional irony, I don't see the irony in Jesus referring to himself as Son of Man. Whatever connection you're seeing is escaping me. Sorry.

It did indeed escape you, as it has nothing to do with Jesus referring to Himself as "Son of Man". It has to do with Jesus referring to Himself as a glutton and a drunkard, the exact formula used by the Deuteronomy passage as justification for parents asking the city fathers to whack their son.

But, as Jesus said Himself, wisdom is justified of all her children........

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

until Saturday morning. I am a compulsive "reviser" and revised the language of mine that you quoted right out of it. However, I attest the language you quoted was indeed mine.

You said the irony was in something Jesus said about himself. This was the Biblical quote that you provided:

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

All Jesus says about himself in that passage is that "The Son of Man came eating and drinking (as does everyone)." He does not even say that what he drank was alcoholic, much less that he was a glutton and a drunkard.

The rest of the quote you provides consists of Jesus telling us what his critics said about him, not what he said about himself. His critics said he was a winebiber (someone who drinks wine, but not necessarily an alcoholic) and "gluttonous" (not necessarily a glutton).

One school of Christian thought claims that the wine mentioned in the Bible was more like grape juice than our wine. If so drinking wine would not have made him a drunk. However, I'll leave that one alone and assume that a larger amount of their wine could result in drunkenness. But even his critics don't say he drank wine to excess.

The Bible does tell us that he drank wine, at least at "the last supper," but not that he was a drunkard or a glutton or even overweight. The Bible does, however, lay out repeatedly that Jesus's critics were always after him for one thing or another. This was especially true of the Pharisees and Saduccees, who were prone to extremes, especially in public displays of religiosity. His teachings were threatened their livelihood.

IOW, the Bible cues us to take the claims of his critics about him with many grains of salt. It's hard to imagine that he would have had the following the Bible says he had, if he had been a drunkard. In any event, he did not refer to himself as a drunkard and a glutton.

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Meteor Man's picture

A lot of faux christians are stuck on stupid in the Old Testament. The New Testament (New Covenant) abolished all the stupid shit in Corinthians and Leviticus.

And then there is The Newer New Covenant:
http://blog.godreports.com/2016/02/stoner-jesus-bible-study-uses-marijua...

I recommend frequent burnt offerings to the Kush Gods.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

Jews believe only in the Old Testament. (I don't know a lot about Islam, but my very limited understanding is that Muslims believe in both testaments, although they believe that both were corrupted. I am, however, certain that, like Jews, Muslims do not believe in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth.)

As far as faux Christians, IMO, they are stuck on stupid about both testaments. What they seem to remember most about the New Testament is the insane ravings of Paul, the fact that bacon is okay with Paul (even if Jesus never ate it) and so on. (Paul, who was living off donations, was understandably zealous about expanding the Christian religion, as zealous as he had been about killing Christians when he was a member of the Zealot sect of Jews.)

Faux Christians seem to have greatly subordinated the teachings of Jesus to the rantings of a self-flagellating, murdering control freak who never met Jesus, except in a vision. So there's really no need to single out either testament in order to fault their interpretation of the Bible. Besides, barbarism abounds in both testaments since Poppy Bush had not yet invented compassionate conservatism. Stonings, crucifixions, etc. were still going on in the New Testament and Herod supposedly killed every baby under two to protect his throne, and so on.

I am not sure that Christian beliefs about the Old Testament are relevant in this context, anyway: It's been a good while since Jews or Christians, even faux Christians, handed over their kids for their neighbors to stone them to death or ripped fetuses out of their mothers' wombs as part of warring.

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in xtianity the new testament, and more particularly the Good News of the New Covenant, absolutely and explicitly supersedes all previous terms and conditions as described in the pentateuch et al. the new covenant revokes the savage, brutal, and anti-human prescriptions of the old testament, replacing them with:
A. The requirement of faith
B. The exhortation to treat others as you would wish to be treated; to share freely of your wealth and your capabilities in the service of those less fortunate (Karl Marx, anyone?); and to leave the judgments and the punishments to god.

whatever those who claim proprietorship over modern Judaism may prefer to believe -- including the curious belief that christianity is anything other than the most numerically successful sect of Judaism -- those who claim adherence to the teachings of joshua ben joseph, as such teachings are laid down in the gospels, and further claim faith in his divinity, have neither right nor reason to affirm as the law of god, the barbarous blather of the old testament.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

to be erroneous. It's difficult to respond because I am unable to discern how your reply is supposed to relate to my post.

My post was about not offending one group, in this case, Jews, unintentionally because we may have a bone to pick with another group, in this case, "faux Christians." And, anyway, there's brutality in both testaments and "faux Christians" are not really relevant to whether or not the Bible commands stoning of children for insolence, which is what this subthread is about. That is, in essence, what my post actually said, if read reasonably and in the context of both the post to which it replied and the context of the subthread. I have no idea what you thought my post said or why. So, again, please quote the language from my post that you found erroneous. Thanks.

Please see also: http://caucus99percent.com/comment/166943#comment-166943

Also, please know that my remaining silent about other things in your post does not indicate either agreement or disagreement.

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Meteor Man's picture

For Protestants The Good News that Jesus preached definitely replaces The Old Covenant of Abraham.

I identify as a Buddhist Quaker and follow the advice of Rabbi Hillel to do unto others as you would have them do to you - everything else is commentary.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Quote/hillel.html

That's pretty much all I need to know or do. I believe the basic theme is that The New Covenant is based on the grace of Jesus which replaced the sin and fear based "Law" of The Old Testament.

Not that big a deal for me, I just run across lots of random religious literature on Skid Row. Oh yeah, I'm definitely a big believer in the kush sacrament of Bob Marley.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

to UntimelyRipped, which is as puzzling as it is frustrating. Let's go back to what your first post said:

The New Covenant Rejects Barbarism

A lot of faux christians are stuck on stupid in the Old Testament. The New Testament (New Covenant) abolished all the stupid shit in Corinthians and Leviticus.

Please note that your post makes flat statements, as though your comments were THE truth, and not simply what some Christians believe. You post implied strongly the New Testament was better than the Old Testament and that Christianity was better than Judaism.

I said your post was potentially insulting to Jews. It is. Although I not say so earlier, was disrespectful to Jews who don't believe two books of the OT, which is their entire bible, is "shit.
I also said the NT contains plenty of barbarism and gave three examples. It does. I also said your post had nothing to do with whether or not anything in the Bible physically contains a command to stone children for insolence, which was the only topic being discussed in the subthread at that point. It didn't.

If you disagree that your post was potentially insulting to Jews or if you feel you should be free to insult Jews, let's discuss that instead of "educating" me about Christian doctrine and the Golden Rule. Among many other things, anyone who read my first reply to you, should realize that I am not totally in the dark about what the NT says.

So, I will ask you the same question that I asked UntimelyRipped: Please quote the language in my original reply to you (Meteor Man) that you believe to have been erroneous.

It would also be very nice if both of you understood why your original post could offend Jews and why explanations about Christian doctrine and what the NT says don't fix the problem of a potential offense to Jews, but, at this point, I'll forego that.

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of the set of things you understand and the set of things i do not understand is probably rather small. I do not give anything approximating the value even of a rat's rump about whether anyone is offended at the proposition that the prescriptions for sadistic punishment and execution that are laid out in leviticus are barbaric, primitive, inhumane, savage, ugly, intolerable, FUCKING EVIL expressions of the worst side of human nature. if this blunt observation hurts the feefees of, for example, people who seriously believe that their ethnic and religious culture traces its roots to a guy who literally wrestled with a supernatural agent of the creator of the universe, which same creator of the universe also entertains a wholly mysterious preference for the descendants of that guy, such that, for example, they are divinely entitled to dominion of certain particular tracts of middle eastern real estate, c'est la vie. i'm not obliged to indulge them, any more than I'm obliged to indulge ISIS supporters' enthusiasm for executing homosexuals.

regardless, what is at issue here is quite specifically what christians believe, and how they act. a rather depressing proportion of them live lives so full of epistemological self-contradiction that it's something of a wonder that they manage to figure out how to get penises into vaginas and thus propagate their delusional memes.

the new testament's purpose for existing is to supersede, and even repudiate, the old. outside of that context, it has no coherent meaning at all. those believers in the judaic faith who reject the new testament are epistemologically free to adhere to whatever anti-human sadistic evil elements of the old testament titillate their lizard brains. those believers in the judaic faith who accept the new testament -- ie., christians -- do not enjoy that freedom.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

issue because that is what you replied to. And only in your imagination did my post attempt to state Christian doctrine.

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One testament is not superior to the other.

In Christianity, one testament is absolutely superior to the other. Anyone claiming to be a Christian, but who refuses to set aside the psychopathic cruelties of the old testament, is missing the boat.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

statement seems to be that it allegedly misstates Christian doctrine. So, now, kindly quote the language from my post that says "One testament is not superior to the other" is a statement of Christian doctrine and not simply a statement of my own.

My view is that one testament is as good (or as bad) as the other. In his original post, Meteor Man stated his personal religious belief as though it were a fact. He did not qualify his statement in any way. I stated my own secular belief as though it were a fact. I am not here to praise one religion over the other or to debate religion versus atheism, but I do object to insulting a group of people gratuitously. (Please don't tell me again that you don't care about insulting people for no reason. Statements like that are a waste, even in a venue as huge as as the worldwide web.)

If, however, you (not Christian doctrine, you) disagree with my very own secular view (not Christianity's, mine) that one testament is not superior to the other, go ahead and prove me wrong--and not by ranting about Christian doctrine: That is, and always was, irrelevant to my statement of my own secular view. Assumong that a post would try to use Christian doctrine to prove that Christianity is not superior to Judaism defies logic. For no good reason, you leapt to the wrong conclusion about my personal secular statement and then went on and on condescendingly about Christian doctrine.

Anyone claiming to be a Christian, but who refuses to set aside the psychopathic cruelties of the old testament, is missing the boat.

What boat might that be? The USS Christian Exceptionalism? the USS Christianity is the One True Religion? The USS Christianity Uber Alles? The boat for jerks who think Christians have some right to be assholes (or worse) to Jews, as a group, at will, and for no reason? I'm happy to wave to that fucker from the egalitarian shore as it sinks while humans hopefully continue to evolve beyond that crap. In my view, anyone who purports to be a Christian who believes in the Golden Rule wouldn't be an asshole to Jews for no apparent reason. Who, other than Meteor Man claimed to be a Christian, anyway? (I have zero desire to bash the Christian religion, either. I am bashing only the gratuitous bashing of Jews under the name of Christianity.)

Moreover, as my prior post said, the NT has plenty of its own cruelties, including stoning (the only behavior under discussion in the subthread until Meteor Man went off topic) and crucifying and other torturing of a supposedly sinless only begotten son of God.

And now, I "wash my hands of this" highly distasteful subthread.

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The New Covenant Rejects Barbarism
A lot of faux christians are stuck on stupid in the Old Testament. The New Testament (New Covenant) abolished all the stupid shit in Corinthians and Leviticus.

He is talking about christianity. Period. That's what he's talking about. That's all that he's talking about. He's not talking about anything else. Only Christianity. He's not talking about Christianity because it's the one true religion, he's talking about Christianity because Christianity is what he's talking about. It's a comment on one particular sect of Judaism -- Christianity -- and its particular understanding of the significance (or lack thereof) of the levitican prescriptions, and the disinclination of many people who style themselves Christian (ie., "faux christians") to accept the foundational creed of their faith.

The boat they've missed is the one that carries their (certainly not my) faith out onto the epistemological ocean; they are the worst sort of "cafeteria christians", willfully refusing to accept those elements of the doctrine that would require them to subdue their lizardly inclinations towards violence, hatred, and dimwitted tribalism.

Inexplicably, you chose to respond to him as if he were talking about something else, ie., "stated his personal religious belief as though it were a fact". That's not what he did. Your response was, at best, a non sequitur. You might as well have responded, "The new testament doesn't supersede the Koran," or for that matter, "The new testament doesn't supersede the Laws of Football". Similarly, your observation that the NT has its own cruelty is pertinent to nothing, because unlike leviticus, the gospels invariably reject, rather than praise, that cruelty. That's the only point that MM was making. The apostles didn't crucify anybody -- the Romans did. Christ tells people to put their rocks in their pockets and go the fuck home, and further is quite explicit about people's essential obligation to be kind and charitable to one another.

I wrote nothing about how I feel about gratuitously hurting people's feelings. I wrote about how I feel about doing rhetorical dances whose purpose is to avoid communicating the truth of what I think, for no reason better than that their feelings will be hurt by knowing what I think. People who believe it is righteous to stone adulterers and pig-eaters to death deserve, not carefully polite and sensitive accommodation to their cultural differences, but confrontation and dismissive contempt. Everywhere and always, and it has always been so. The psychopathic authoritarian priests and headmen who inflicted this evil on the ancient societies of the middle east were evil fuckers then, just as their latter-day adherents are evil fuckers now. Beyond that, I don't agree that anybody anywhere in the original post or the comments wrote anything that constitutes christian exceptionalists "gratuitously" bashing Jews.

Finally, in one of your other comments responding to MM, you wrote this:

You post implied strongly the New Testament was better than the Old Testament and that Christianity was better than Judaism.

No, it didn't. Your claim is a perfect example of someone trying to be offended. MM's posted simply made an assertion about Christian doctrine. It was just a side-note to your comment. That was the whole and the entirety of it. Anybody -- Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Ba'hai, whatever -- insulted by it, other than someone who actually subscribes to the horrible, evil precepts of Leviticus, would be a fool; and anyone who does so subscribe, needs to be confronted and told.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

gulfgal98's picture

for you and your dear Sweetie, Tim. May you and Sweetie's family cherish these moments together. Good memories are more precious than anything else. It will mean the world to your Sweetie to be with her family again. She may not be able to tell you, but you will know what a beautiful gift you are giving to her and to her family. Safe travels.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Shockwave's picture

Trump says he would require schools to teach patriotism

In addition to teaching patriotism in schools, he called for students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

“We will stop apologizing for America, and we will start celebrating America,” he said. “We will be united by our common cultures, values, and principles, becoming one American nation, one country under the one constitution, saluting one American flag—always saluting.”

Colin Kaepernick may have triggered Trump's proclamation.

But this got me thinking about Jehovah's Witnesses; Florida teacher suspended after forcing Jehovah’s Witness student to say Pledge of Allegiance and atheists; Atheists slam school nurse for refusing to treat student who won’t stand for Pledge of Allegiance . Saying the Pledge of Allegiance every day is a uniquely American tradition.

Googling around I stumbled on this subject matter;

The Shocking Origins Of Public Education which pointed to this video;

[video:https://youtu.be/okPnDZ1Txlo]

Trump wants to inject steroids on the ugliest aspects of the Prussian education system that underlies our education system.

[video:https://youtu.be/7nawIXBuBrU]

Trump is the end result a long history, like Hitler was.

And then there is Hillary;

Hacker known as Guccifer sentenced to 52 months in prison

The Romanian hacker who first revealed that Hillary Clinton used a private email address while she was secretary of state was sentenced to more than four years in federal prison Thursday by a U.S. district judge in Alexandria, Va.

Marcel Lehel Lazar, 44, known online as “Guccifer,” was extradited in 2014 to the United States and pleaded guilty in May to one count each of aggravated identity theft and unauthorized access to a protected computer.

Happy Open Thread everyone!

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The political revolution continues

Did you see the jingoism on display at the democratic convention?

And Hillary proposed legislation to make flag burning illegal.

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enhydra lutris's picture

something of a blowhard, since she has to know damn well that such laws have been ruled unconstitutional in the past - she's just reassuring all of the hardcore that she is still one of them.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

elenacarlena's picture

then I'll start apologizing for America. Just sayin.

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And, in the last few decades, one Clinton or another has been among those very much responsible for a great deal of it.

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elenacarlena's picture

I'm not encouraging them to do those things and they come across as very plausible.

Trump comes across as a clown and he's very open about wanting to commit war crimes - "Take out their families". So somehow it would seem much more embarrassing if America has enough doofuses to elect that.

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Democrats are the Party that cries wolf every two years, and especially every four. "Be Very Afraid of the Republican President, so vote for the Democrat" needs to stop crying wolf and we need to stop knee-jerking and voting out of fear.

This is only Trump, desperately trying to make sure that he has at least the entire RW base behind him, as he sees Republicans defecting to Hillary. And therein lies the problem: Someone has to check Republicans, not imitate them.

The further right Democratic politicians have gone, the further right Republican politicians have gone to differentiate themselves. In turn, that makes the wingnut in the RW base go further right than ever. So, the country keeps going further and further right. It's a vicious cycle that hurts all of us a lot more than schoolchildren pledging allegiance to the flag (and the position of their arms doesn't make them Hitler Youth).

As for a President requiring the pledge: Even a President cannot do that which is unconstitutional. Things that violate the First, Ninth and Tenth Amendments are unconstitutional. A President also cannot legislate. A president also cannot micro manage a school day, which is up to the school board, the superintendent of schools, principals and teachers. States still have their own constitutional rights, after all. And parents can still sue, as they did about school prayer.

The squeezing out, one way or the other, election after election, of liberals that might actually push back at Republicans is more frightening than Trump. Hillary's war votes, her actions as SOS and domestic policies, her association with The Fellowship, her lies, etc. scare me a lot more than empty bloviating by Trump. Hillary's American Exceptionalism prattle will have a lot more influence in spreading ugly nationalism and xenophobia than will Trump's threatening something he cannot pull off unless the other two branches of government and states all abdicate their own responsibilities simultaneously.

We've gone from Great Society to fast-tracking TPP in 50 years. During that time, Democrats had a majority in at least one house of Congress most of that time and the Presidency, too, a lot of that time. Bill Clinton, not Reagan or Poppy, repealed a lot of what remained of FDR's New Deal. Wealth transfer to top accelerated more under Obama than at any time in human history. The middle class is almost gone and poor people are disdained and treated accordingly. Politicians don't even refer to the poor anymore (though Sanders did).

I shudder to think where another decade or two will put us, unless we start pushing back hard and fast against Republicans. It's been a long time since Third Way Democrats pushed back hard against anyone but liberals. My red line in the sand is not voting for Hillary, who with Al From and her husband are more responsible for the Third Way than anyone else in the world.

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enhydra lutris's picture

trip.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

hecate's picture

It would be nice to see the people who have left. I know that I sure would want to get back up with my Sweetie.

No one really knows what happens when living creatures die. There have been no reliable Reports. It is known that the corporeal container then stops. But it is also known that what is known as "consciousness," this is not bound by the known laws of physics. So who knows where that goes? Somebody somewhere once suggested that maybe expiring creatures travel to wherever it is that they wanted, or expected, to go. My mother, for instance, she wants to go to a heaven, where she can be with those who have gone before her. And so, I hope she does.

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lotlizard's picture

Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me [Krishna / G~d] will live with Me.

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smiley7's picture

Sending thoughts for a safe journey. Hugs!

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shaharazade's picture

and Sweetie on your trip together. I somehow feel that this trip will not be the last you take together. I really believe that love is an eternal trip of the spirit. Thank you for the thought provoking OT.

1don't.

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