Thought was not part of the Design.

          I cannot fault the holy trinity Socrates·Plato·Aristotle, or the thousands of devoted minions whom have strutted the earth full of sound and fury during the past 2.5 centuries. I do not harbor contempt for philosophers of the early 1900s, as they had no reason to take Quantum Mechanics seriously. Even the most learned of that time could only dimly appreciate the significance of what was to come.

          However, from 1950 onward, no rational member of the cognoscenti could doubt the power, and ubiquity of Quantum Mechanical processes. The sad truth is, many "philosophers" occupy positions in the academic sphere with no real understanding of the significance of these more recent developments.
          What has all this to do with "Thought", "Design", and some philosophers paying homage to Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle as though they are supreme beings?

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Philosopher said What ?

          Dr. Paul Humphreys provides a brief introduction to the concepts of Generative Atomism, and Reductionist's methods. He also describes Epistemological Emergence, and Ontological Emergence.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IuG3kJY_g]

          Reductionist's methods were successful in Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Logic, and Computer Sciences. Please notice the word "were": We can still get away with using a generative atomistic approach as long as we don't look too close. This is an important point because classical philosophers are unable to grasp many critical aspects of reality.
          Dr. Paul Humphreys describes Epistemological Emergence as occurring when we don't have enough information, or the situation is too complex for us to use generative atomism to describe a given process. So, according to him, natural processes unfold according to our understanding of those processes. That seems a bit too anthropocentric for my taste. He says Epistemological Emergence occurs when our knowledge of a "future event cannot be reduced to a prediction from a small set of basic principles in the way that we can predict a solar eclipse." He seems to be saying "Predicting a solar eclipse." is fundamentally different than "Predicting our exit from the cow pasture." This distinction is rendered null as soon as you realize these two processes differ in scale along the dimension of time. Over an appropriately large time scale we cannot predict the occurrence of a solar eclipse any more than we can predict our exit from the cow pasture. Viewed from the other direction over an appropriately small time scale we can predict our exit from the cow pasture with the same facility as we can predict a solar eclipse.
          I am not attacking Dr. Paul Humphreys per se. It is the culture of philosophers that fail to inform themselves of their subject matter that triggers my ire. His presentation represents a failure to understand the need to choose an appropriate scaling with respect to each physical phenomena under discussion. The time scale for tracking celestial alignments is quite different from the time scale for negotiating a queue.
          Even today, we use Reductionist Methods (based upon Generative Atomism) extensively in the Physical Sciences. We do so only when the errors inherent in the process are acceptable for the task. So with care we proceed knowing full well we may need to modify our protocol at any moment. If our simulations run for too much time, expand to encompass too much space, or stretch some other parameter too far, Reductionist Methods fail. In all cases Reductionist Methods will ultimately fail, this is a fact of life, it is inherent to the very nature of, well, nature (I like to use the term "Reality").
          It would seem, given the above, Epistemological Emergence might be a viable alternative to Reductionist Methods. The Achilles Heel of Epistemological Emergence is a bit subtle, and the fact is, a semi-classical approach serves only to mask the fatal flaw. The semi-classical approach to which I refer is codified as the (name of a town, famous person, or university) Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. The Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, the Ithaca Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, et cetera are simply rhetorical devices to allow us to do useful calculations and ignore the embarrassing truth: We have yet to find a way to understand Quantum Mechanical processes. In fact we may never be able to understand Quantum Mechanical processes, and for a very important reason.
          Dr. Paul Humphreys states, "Examples of Ontological Emergence are rare and we should not look for them in the everyday world." This statement is profoundly silly: It is so very wrong, in fact it is so very incorrect as to be not even wrong (paraphrasing Wolfgang Pauli). We are not constantly aware of the air that surrounds us, but it is always there. We ride bicycles without needing to attend to the critical details that determine a successful ride. We aren't constantly aware of our heartbeat, or the ordinary sounds that permeate our environment, but they are ever present. Examples of Ontological Emergence are ubiquitous, we simply don't notice them.
          Dr. Paul Humphreys example of covalent bonding is fatally flawed by the fact that the electrons in isolated hydrogen atoms to not possess an individual identity that is lost when the covalent bond is formed. Said another way: Electrons are not little balls orbiting a nucleus. The only time an electron even comes close to approximating that cartoonish depiction is when it is in a very high energy state. When in a high energy state wherefrom it can easily escape the atom it very closely resembles a moon orbiting a planet, if you squint real hard, and stick your tongue out and bite it.
          "It is sometimes suggested that human consciousness is an example of Ontological Emergence." Dr. Paul Humphreys doesn't understand enough to realize human consciousness is an example of Ontological Emergence. The very foundation of brain function is the electrochemical processes that emerge from the Quantum Mechanical processes in the atoms that comprise the material contained in our craniums: Virtually a definition of Ontological Emergence.
          If you would like to understand how a brain functions, or how evolutions produces us, don't ask a Classical Philosopher, ask a Modern Natural Philosopher.

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Thanks to the kind readers here I found this:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByJBdQXjXU]

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We ride bicycles without needing to attend to the critical details.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0]

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

"Predicting a solar eclipse." is fundamentally different than "Predicting our exit from the cow pasture." This distinction is rendered null as soon as you realize these two processes differ in scale along the dimension of time.

Imagine you are very near (from earth's perspective) the event horizon of a black hole, where time for you is moving at an infinitesimally slow rate compared to that on earth.

If you were able to look back at earth's solar system, all of the planets would appear to be orbiting almost infinitely fast, certainly too fast to be distinguished except perhaps that the orbits might appear as linear circles of reflection around the sun. Same goes even moreso for the rotation of the moon about the earth.

From this perspective, there is no way to tell when a solar eclipse will occur because the differences in time rates make it impossible to determine relative positions of the bodies.

The applications to the quantum would I hope seem fairly obvious.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

PriceRip's picture

          From a certain point of view there is "· · · no way to tell when a solar eclipse · · ·", or even if a solar eclipse occurs. A little more than a month ago I started writing Black Holes Everywhere : A First Person Account grounded in a recent presentation I had seen at the local planetarium. I quickly got lost in the convoluted thoughts needed to describe the necessary elements of that presentation. So, as the project began to crumble, I started to clarify certain points like that presented here.

          The geometry of space near (distance from center greater than value given below) a black hole is very weird but understandable. And, as you say, from that perspective processes "out in space" impossible to track.

          From that location the universe looks much different, now let's get to the math · · ·

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

Given the differences in time rates between a black hole and the earth, what is c?

Is c the speed of light leaving the black hole? Is c the speed of light once it reaches the earth? Is c the speed of light at some Lagrange point in between? Or is c something else?

Basically, if the time rate at the source of the light is different from the rate on earth, don't we have to take that difference into account when calculating c? And if we don't, won't that lead to major distortions in the solution r?

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

PriceRip's picture

          he said as he sank (kicking and screaming) into the quicksand bog.

          Short answer: Yes! , takes a powder , exits stage right.

          Long answer: Yes! , and all those c's are the same. So, now I need to draw some TimeSpace diagrams and all becomes clear · · · except for one problem · · · these pretty diagrams are four dimensional. All this, I do using classical constructions, so it is a bootstrapping from a Newtonian framework toward an Einsteinian framework.

          My usual starting place is to discuss the "Twin Paradox" to develop a common lexicon and weltanschauung. Then intuit how to develop the curved timespace. This is a "soft" approach that avoids the mathematical rigor that tends to obscure the salient points for those of us (me included) that can get sidetracked by details. I refer that last bit as sliding down the rabbit hole.

          Perhaps this is the hardest point to get across, and the most important point to get across. The various observers will measure different numbers. But, they never disagree with one another. To the very last decimal they all agree the each observer has recorded correct numbers. There are no disagreements, none whatsoever.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

We humans register 'visible light' at frequencies between 430 and 770 THz.

But if the time is slowed down near the horizon of a black hole, the frequencies we observe as visible light near the horizon must actually be frequencies that are actually far faster when viewed at the source.

What would appear as visible light when viewed at the horizon of a black hole, by contrast, would actually not be able to be seen as light from earth because the frequencies would appear slowed to the point of invisibility

The point is what we call light coming from near a black hole originates as energy at a much faster frequency, so when trying to calculate distance (r) aren't we applying a distorted constant because what appears to be visible light to the viewer is not actually visible light at the source?

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

PriceRip's picture

          Everything you are saying about the light pulse is correct. We have a very precise way of tracking now clock rates change as we move toward and away from a concentration of mass. That is the comparing light pulses as you describe. The space distortion is a bit more problematic (as in difficult to visualize because how can we compare them?). So as clocks get near a black hole clocks run slow. This is like the time-dilation effect we deal with at places like CERN.

          Near a black hole space is "more compact" so we would see the meter-stick as being shorter than one meter. So as meter-sticks get near a black hole rods get shorter. This is like the length-contraction effect we deal with at places like CERN.

          (Warning Klaxon) this is a heuristic argument. Do not trust this to be rigorous please.

          When I compare measurements between observers moving relative to each other I note that each observer sees the other in the same way: The other has shortened meter-sticks, slow running clocks, and (if they are moving away from each other) light pulses that are received as longer wavelengths. If you are looking at a source that is closer to the black hole it is as though that source is moving away from you.

          If I switch things around The other has shortened meter-sticks, slow running clocks, and (if they are moving toward each other) light pulses that are received as shorter wavelengths. If you are looking at a source that is farther from the black hole it is as though that source is moving toward you.

          The punchline: Both observers calculate the speed of light as the same value. Both comparing each others techniques and sequences of events during the measurement process agree that while the other observer had slowed clocks and compresses meter-sticks, they in fact correctly calculated the speed of light.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

Near a black hole space is "more compact" so we would see the meter-stick as being shorter than one meter. So as meter-sticks get near a black hole rods get shorter. This is like the length-contraction effect we deal with at places like CERN.

Space could also appear more compact as a result of underestimating time dilation.

Even after current calibrations, if we continue to slow time even more, those shortened meters will eventually lengthen to the proper size we'd expect. The compactness expands and we don't have to twist any fabrics to make sense of the data.

That's my working theory anyway. If you have any links to how they currently calibrate time dilation respective of distant bodies, I'd appreciate the tip.

(Always fun chatting with you.)

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

PriceRip's picture

          The thing I produced is in the nature of an analogy. I don't have a problem with it on the gentle distortions near something like the Earth or at reasonable distances from a black hole. But realize that as you approach the "surface" all bets are off. I can talk about stressed space on the scale I noted in the OP, but closer in we are doing a lot of speculation. That "we" is all of us, including the revered Dr. Stephen Hawking.

          I will poke about a bit to see I can get more detail, but I can say that the techniques involve spectroscope. the features of interest show up as patterns wherein the spacing is like a fingerprint. The pattern is unique to the source frequency, its position in our instruments define the received frequency, and the relationship between the two gives us the time dilation information. The holy grail of is to get an actual instrument to a distant object to check it out. Until that happens, we are stuck with bootstrap methods that rely on the physical constants being well behaved.

          If it turns out that gravity is an emergent property of a non-QM TimeSpace continuum a whole lot of stuff will need to be reworked.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

This looks right up your alley.

Dutch theoretical physicist Erik Verlinde has been shaking up the physics world with his controversial theory of “emergent gravity”, which sees gravity not as a fundamental force but rather as a force that comes into existence as a result of microscopic changes in the spacetime’s structure. Verlinde came out with this theory in 2010, taking on the laws of Newton and calling gravity “an illusion”. In 2016, his follow-up paper argued that there is also no mysterious “dark matter” in existence, which is supposed to (along with dark energy) make up to 95% of the universe but has so far not been detected.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

PriceRip's picture

          Another reader sent a link just before I got this machine back from my tech in Lincoln. Sometime in the next few days I will get the .PDF file and have a look see. The summery you quote fits the abstract she pointed out well: I think it is becoming clear gravity may not be a force (no Q.M. needed) at all and the Dutchman may have found the path. I am rather fond of Christopher Nolan and Kip Thorne's presentation known as Interstellar.

          So, thanks for the link, and have a good one · · ·

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Bisbonian's picture

Jet airliners, too.

sorry.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

PriceRip's picture

          We were brainstorming examples, but that one didn't pop into our conversation. This puts me in mind of my (Professional Pilot) friend/student. He really "got with the program" unlike some of the other students · · ·

          In my classes I like to spend (a little) time discussing how our brains handle these difficult tasks. The push back is strong. I usually use the riding motorcycle/bicycle example to illuminate the process. I start by explaining the dynamics of turning and straight line motion highlighting the aspects of which we are unaware · · · then wham! · · · some experienced rider will proclaim that I am full of it · · · using polite language, of course. Some very experienced riders seem to have internalized the process to the extent that they have lost the ability to be aware of their process. Mindful presence is not strong in some.

          Saadat Hosseini flew commercial jets for a time and now teaches part time at the local university. I wish I could take credit, but I know better.

          If not for the expense (and my wife's objections, and a small matter of acrophobia) I would love to fly helicopters. That would be a trip · · ·

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Bisbonian's picture

(and motorcycles) is that, at speed, you turn the handlebars left to go right. Usually without thinking about it.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

PriceRip's picture

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tapu dali's picture

Even an exercise bike is a challenge. I keep slipping off the seat and my feet fall off the pedals.

Sad

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There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

... and I confess not to understand it all. Some of your examples (e.g. riding the bicycle) remind me of the shift in my professional approach to patients' diagnostic challenges. In school we learn to take a deductive, step-by-step procedure to diagnostic challenges, very algorithmic in nature. After a certain number of years of experience, this algorithmic approach can be short-circuited by experience. Pattern recognition and probabilistic considerations become internalized to such a degree that inductive reasoning provides a much quicker and more facile approach. Inductive diagnostics allows for shortcuts that give a probable answer, and significantly fewer investigations aim to either increase or decrease the certainty of the tentative answer.

The way I approach diagnostic challenges at work bears a lot of resemblance to how a bicycle rider gains confidence in their body's ability to read forces and inputs, to make the process more reliable and near-automatic. Failures can always occur, but this "unconscious competence" phase of learning is the highest and best form of understanding human minds can usually reach. It seems to me that we are still in the training wheels phase of understanding quantum mechanics, and the history of science suggests that we will get better at riding that particular bicycle. It just may take centuries to do it.

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PriceRip's picture

          Destroy the training wheels for they are an abomination, so saith the · · ·

          When you surprise a child with their first bicycle, first remove the pedals. Let the child play (in a safe place, not in the street) until they can smoothly maneuver around objects and you standing in the way. After a few hours of play, with "muscle memory" primed, put on the pedals. The child will falter but little as they fly away from your protective presence.

          I feel more comfortable than most with quantum mechanics (understand ?, most likely never) because I refuse to take seriously the "training wheels" of the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics or any other such rhetorical devices. Before we can even dream of understanding QM we need to break our dependence on Classical Thinking.

          Your approach diagnostic challenges mirrors my teaching technique. The best times are when my students learn from my failures. As my dad liked to point out (paraphrased of course): A wise man learns from his own mistakes, learning from another's mistakes is much better.

          The "unconscious competence" phase of learning is a whole dissertation unto itself. Okay maybe a separate article at least. And, wouldn't it be nice to get some funding: a new NMR, along with the newest EEG equipment, et cetera · · ·

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predicting "our" departure from the cow pasture more like a piece of cow pie than a piece of cake. If I have money riding on it, I could probably predict my own departure from the pasture. If nothing is riding on it, though, I'm not sure I could do even that with 100% accuracy, as I often surprise myself.

Is predicting a solar eclipse fundamentally different from predicting the departure from a cow pasture of individual other than oneself? (I think it is, which makes me suspect you might think it isn't.)

The most intriguing (to unscientific me) statement I heard about thinking:

Scientist or doctor (I've forgotten which): Please describe how you think.

Subject: It's like a TV or movie is going on in my head.

Scientist or doctor: Who is watching?

As far as a music video for my post, all that came to mind was the nursery rhyme about the cow jumping over the moon. (If it were about a cow jumping over the sun, it would have been perfect. Or barbecue.)

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41U78QP8nBk]

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PriceRip's picture

          Then 17 years later I saw 2001 : a space odyssey wherein Hal 9000 payed homage to the original, sweet.

          Is predicting a solar eclipse fundamentally different from predicting the departure from a cow pasture of individual other than oneself? (I think it is, which makes me suspect you might think it isn't.)

          Different driving forces but very similar properties from the standpoint of Reductionist Methods versus Epistemological Emergence versus Ontological Emergence. From a philosophical perspective they are more similar than they are different. Most get the eclipse bit wrong because they think of it on a time scale that is too small. If you try to push the prediction algorithm too far into the future you do not know where the various bodies are located relative to one another, hence you cannot predict an eclipse beyond some fussy limit. Compounding the problem: The cars are driven by thinking human beings, right? This sentence creates a flashback to "Click and Clack the Tappet Brothers" as I point out "Don't be so quick with the assumptions piston-puss." gales of laughter follow.

          There are a few of us that actively manipulate traffic flow. By varying my speed and lane position I can effect the flow of traffic in an urban setting. This manipulation exploits "subconscious" processes in the brains of other drivers. To work properly (id est avoiding road rage) I cannot do anything to draw the conscious attention of the "masses" as they are going about their normal driving routine. I am only aware of my cohort in the western part of the USofA, so I cannot comment on how well this works elsewhere, but we find that humans driving cars are not too different from "mindless" particles buffeted by elemental forces. So, yea, the people driving cars in a cow pasture scenario is fundamentally the same as several gravitationally interacting celestial bodies.

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What I lack in knowledge and comprehension, I make up for in psychic ability. Wink

Cars? CARS? Why didn't you say so sooner? I assumed we were discussing people walking in a cow pasture. People in cars in a cow pasture makes it an entirely different problem. No wonder I got it wrong! Why, I oughtta.... Wink

I totally missed the homage in 2001: A Space Odyssey because I did not know about the "singing computer" until today, when I looked for an appropriate music video to post, that being the extent of my ability on these threads.

(I appreciate your patience with my ignorance and teasing. About all I can do is kick the thread.)

Total Eclipse (of the Heart)
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcOxhH8N3Bo]

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Bisbonian's picture

You too?!

Once a week, I drive four hours to work. For 20 years...same route. I have had lots of time to experiment.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

PriceRip's picture

          I first heard about this as a story of this guy doing a daily commute to Seattle and back. I thought, "This sounds neat." and started doing experiments in Phoenix AZ, Denver, Reno, Portland, Seattle, and high flow locations in between. Over the years I have logged a lot of accident free miles, probably because I tend to be very aware of traffic conditions.

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Bisbonian's picture

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X