The direct plan for climate change mitigation

Okay everyone, here it is; I'm no doubt repeating it from a comment I've made here earlier. Now it gets its own diary. Anyway:

1) The government starts a car company.

2) The car company makes only electric cars which will come with their own solar panels.

3) Everyone who owns a fossil-burning car gets an offer. You can trade in your fossil-burning car for an electric car at no charge.

4) At some point the gas pumps are shut off.

So demand that the government do this for all of the other fossil-burning consumer items. Don't wait for free-market "price signals" which will never come. Time to phase out the fossil fuel economy directly.

At any rate, in the words of Linda Richman (aka Mike Myers):

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Bluesee's picture

..that it can happen organically. Big Business didn't like Jimmy Carter's approach, which your idea is in line with, and we haven't, - as Americans - believed that we can do that.

I don't believe it will happen organically because, well, we now have fracking and other means to get it out (never leace it in!), and so we can do what we are doing today without apparent penalty. The is the Freedom that the GOP speaks of, you know. This exact program.

Good idea, want it to get popular, definitely.

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Bernie is a win-win.

divineorder's picture

"we can do what we are doing today without apparent penalty."

The science says otherwise, do what we are doing has catastrophic consequences .

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/09/23/earth-could-reach-critical-c...
Published on
Friday, September 23, 2016
by
Common Dreams
Earth Could Reach Critical Climate Threshold in Decade, Scientists Warn

Meanwhile, new research discovers soil may not be trapping carbon as fast as we hoped
by
Nadia Prupis, staff writer

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

Bluesee's picture

...I think there are some who feel they can. Or don't care. It's mind-blowing, but the dumb ones don't want to hear it, and too many of them are in power.

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Bernie is a win-win.

by investing in private companies like Solyndra (sp?) than build its own factory because Socialism.

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elenacarlena's picture

See http://www.techinsider.io/us-2015-renewable-energy-investments-2016-5 and http://energy.gov/key-facts-solyndra-solar and http://energy.gov/science-innovation/energy-sources/renewable-energy

I don't think we're doing enough given the urgency of the need to deal with climate change. But Solyndra was essentially a non-event that conservatives harp on. One investment fails, 39 succeed, and they focus on the one because they are paid off by the oil and gas companies, so don't want renewables to succeed.

Note from the second link:

Historically, our government has supported emerging industries -- from transcontinental railroads to aviation to the microchip. These investments strengthened our Nation and leveraged the private investments that drove our prosperity. Now is not the time to stop investing in our Nation’s future.

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but it didn't seem to take. If the railroads, airlines, oil/coal, banks and other industries weren't STILL being subsidized by the gov't they would have a lot harder time being financially feasible, too. Were some not also exempt from regulations allowing them to poison our people and the environment and be required to pay restitution, they would quickly fold.
We're no longer subsidizing the industries ... we're subsidizing CEO portfolios.

ed. upthumb finally took.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

actually reverses the first uprate. So if it doesn't seem to be taking, uprate in odd numbers. The third in this case, should eventually take. Might just be slow.

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will build its own factory because our government fears seeming socialist. Nothing in my post said that most businesses in which government invests fail or that government should not invest in businesses, I almost hate using any specific examples in a post. When I do, it seems like people focus on the specific example aDo nd nothing else.

Do you think our government would prefer building its own auto factories?

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Bluesee's picture

I have observed this to be post-Reagan thinking, and I regard it that way. It's the voices that get heard it seems that carry sway. Under Jimmy Carter we were headed toward just that future; he believe, as we do, that the path is a moral one.

I'm thinking about Pink Floyd "Animals" album cover, with the smokestacks and horrible hell-on-earth sense of the thing. Who would create that here on this Earth, given a choice? So it is moral, it is caring for the world versus not.

But we did have an idealism of that bent once. Business owners to a person all claimed it sucked under Carter and I can't argue that it may have. But it is kind of a pay me now or pay me later scenario. Not feeling good about our National and Global legacy.

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Bernie is a win-win.

post-Reagan thinking.

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Bluesee's picture

...and the notion that government is the problem, and the concurrent cries of socialism whenever we get together to solve a problem of national interest.

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Bernie is a win-win.

carefully cultivated by New Democrats in government for decades. When Obama was supposed trying to sell ACA, he sneered that Americans don't want to get their health care from government, then he made some snickering comment about the Post Office. Americans would not get health care with Medicare for All, anyway, only health insurance; and the Post Office, while beleagured by the 2006 Act and stacking the Commission with those who hate the Post Office, still does a heck of a job for very little money--which is why FedEX uses the Post Office so much. Yes, Republicans push that notion too. However, my chief problem with New Democrats is that they do Republicans one better, when they should be pushing back against Republicans.

On the other hand, the shenanigans of the Clinton Foundation and the Department of State don't bode well for trusting government in an era of corruption. Or the Clinton pardons. Or handing out ambassadorships on the basis of who donated the most money to the President's campaign or even handing out invites to State dinners on that basis.

So, as always, it's not as clear cut as one might like.

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Bluesee's picture

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Bernie is a win-win.

elenacarlena's picture

I did focus on the Solyndra objection more than the socialism point.

I think our government is not a monolith, and in this case there's not an aggregate opinion of the individuals who make up the government. Ever since McCarthy, many people in and out of government think "scary socialism/communism!" but Bernie's candidacy showed that that view is fading, with younger people thinking socialism makes sense. Government leaders 20-30 years from now (if we survive) might wonder, "McCarthy who?"

Surely there have always been people who realized socialism makes sense in some ways, because we have things like Social Security. We have always had tension between government and capitalism. Which is good, it keeps either from becoming too powerful. Which is why this corporate buying up of our government is dangerous.

I think there are probably some who think we would mess it up if we built our own auto factories, some who think it would mean money and power for the government so would be wonderful, and some who would be appalled at the idea of "socialist" government ownership of the means of production because somewhere a capitalist would not be making a profit.

After reading at the links I provided in the above comment, in every case in addition to government investment, there was also substantial private investment. If we do all the production with only taxpayer investment, then it would cost us a lot more money and we take on all the risk. For some things that may be necessary. Having read about Hong Kong and how the government and car manufacturers work together, I don't think electric vehicles are one of those things.

I think where socialism works best is areas where we should have a common good regardless of whether it makes a profit - postal services, education, healthcare, and the like. More services, I think, than products. I would include the Internet - I think in the modern world, everyone should have access without paying a premium for it. I don't think anyone has adequate access to knowledge without it.

We need to provide public transportation, which can be a losing proposition monetarily. But if people want to have their own vehicles, that's okay too, but not something the government needs to provide.

That's probably way more verbiage than needed to answer your question! But I'm half asleep, so can't edit for succinctness.

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McCarthy did not start the fear of socialism. Our government and the U.S. wealthy, like Joe Kennedy (and probably FDR), became terrified of socialism as soon as the Russian revolutions succeeded in 1917. When the stock market crashed and the banks ran out of money, leaving millions defrauded by Wall Street and literally starving in some cases, the US government and the wealthy soiled their linen at the prospect of an uprising ala Russia 1917.

We have things like Social Security because Black Friday came only 12 years after the successful Russian Revolutions and U.S. plutocrats were terrified that Americans defrauded by the wealthy would do the same thing in the U.S. that the Russian peasants had done, with the help of the Russian military, fed up by WWI. (Which is why the US loves it some rightist military and LE.)

Accurately or not, Joe Kennedy was quoted as saying that he would give away half of what he had in return for the knowledge that he would be able to keep the other half in peace. The idea was that giving people some stuff and some assurances that the rich would not defraud them en masse into poverty again, like the FDIC and the SEC.

Btw, things like the FDIC and the SEC were also to take care of the wealthy, to try to ensure that people would feel safe investing in securities again (you're welcome, Wall Street) and would feel safe putting the two or three dollars a week they could save, if they were lucky, into the bank again (you're welcome, banksters). Also, Social Security was to supposed to pay for itself. It is after all, Old Age Disability and Survivors Insurance, not a giveaway. However, our corrupt politicians keep using those funds for wars and other stuff so they don't have to levy war taxes, as did FDR during WWII. Welfare, however, was a real social safety net, but it was a much more modest program at its inception than it was by 1992, when New Democrat Bill Clinton ran for POTUS on ending "welfare as we know it."

J. Edgar Hoover fed McCarthy info that Hoover and others had gathered, much of it gathered during World War II. The then burgeoning post-War television industry brought the HUAC hearings, full of fear of the U.S.S.R., into America's living rooms every day, making ordinary Americans fear socialism as much as did wealthy Americans. It had to be made clear to ordinary Americans that Russia, the World War II ally that had helped the US "win" World War II was, only a few years later, the biggest danger to the US that ordinary Americans could imagine. Even little school children had to be taught to duck under their desks or file to the basements of their schools when Russia started bombing the US. And ads for home versions of (snort) fallout shelters ran on that new TV, right along with Uncle Miltie and Senator McCarthy. The message was hammered home: Be afraid, be very afraid of the United Socialist Soviet Republics. Hell, The Family even got Eisenhower to change the Salute to the Flag to make it clear Americans were very different from atheistic Communists.

Other anti-socialism, pro-capitalism measures included the domino theory, the Korean "Police Action" and the Vietnam "Era" propping up dictators like the Shah of Iran, etc., all to make sure capitalism thrived and socialism did not.

As far as public vs. private investment, or the New Democrat favorites, "public private partnerships" and privatization, I am going to beg off because, as previously stated, the only point of my post was that the US government is highly unlikely to open its own factories. I never meant to open the public/private can of worms. For that matter, my brief original post was never intended to open any can of worms. I thought it self-evident that the US government is highly unlikely to start opening auto factories.

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motives of those in control of the political economy.

It's important to keep fresh in peoples' minds the ongoing raids, by both capitalist parties, on the Social Security Trust Fund. Big Capital has already stolen from SSA; they merely want to finish the job and make one last big score - privatization.

All pension funds that are defined benefit are being attacked.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJeFrqBJF6E]

It's amazing how greatly perceptions and interpretation of the same set of facts can differ. Thank you for the kind words.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

to work with the capitalists. I have more books on Green Capitalism than I care to say! While the corporations greenwashed and delayed action and played nice with us. We tried to prove--and to some extent, did--that capitalism could remain profitable without destroying the earth. People can argue, of course, that that isn't true, but we never got to find out, because capitalists didn't care to reform capitalism so that it might have a chance of not destroying the earth. They went for maximized profit in the short term, and the preservation of a system where jiggling oil prices on one side of the world can rid you of a pesky government on the other.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

gendjinn's picture

The Davos Malthusians see APG as the English saw the potato famine in Ireland - a good way to clear the land of useless/problematic human shaped objects.

Once you've decided 10 billion is too many people and you need to do something about it, well it's a very short walk to deciding that you don't need to preserve the maximum carrying capacity either. The sociopaths in the 0.1% will decide that we should run the planet with the minimum number of humans, to maximise total human happiness of course. While Elysium wasn't the best, the future outlined is where the 1%, Wall Street are taking us with little opposition from the Democrats.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

It was that realization that more or less permanently demoralized me in 2010. Since then, I've been a somewhat different person.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

gendjinn's picture

The Stoics, Epicureans and the Chinese have plenty to teach us of how to live a good life in evil times.

Wine tastes as good, love just as sweet, the laughter of children just as joyous.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

The Stoics, Epicureans and the Chinese have plenty to teach us of how to live a good life in evil times.

But it's only the Cynics who tell us the truth!

Diogenes of Sinope: greatest philosopher in history!

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

gendjinn's picture

They were more about the debate than the question being debated. But yes, they were fearless in articulating views, thoughts no matter taboo.

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Hawkfish's picture

I was tangentially involved with Solyndra and thought their technology was interesting, but other panel designs caught up with them and took them out.

There are many reasons to pull R&D into the public sector, but Solyndra's failure is not one of them. Plenty of university research doesn't pan out either, and can also be costly. It's just the nature of science and engineering to explore the unknown. Sometimes there are dragons.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

failed, so government should pull money out of the private sector.

http://caucus99percent.com/comment/180769#comment-180769

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Hawkfish's picture

I'm just used to people using them as a whipping boy for why the gubbmint should stay out of R&D because they "shouldn't pick winners and losers." Ignoring the fact that private industry is often even worse...

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

like the Bushes, should not talk about "picking winners and losers." There are very few Republicans in office who have the credibility to use that phrase, ever.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

like medicine and green energy, but, I think we should get a better deal for our investment risk than we have traditionally gotten from, say, the pharmaceutical industry. And, being a lot more cynical than I once was, I tend to question figures government gives us when it says how much money it has made from an investment. Government could do its own R & D, as it did with the Manhattan Project and the space program. Or it could invest wisely in private R & D. However, it seems like the taxpayers take the downside risk without getting the same kind of participation in the upside that a private investor would enjoy. Moreover, if ia venture such a great deal, why aren't private investors snapping it up? If the issue is speed-getting millions very quickly, without all that pesky SEC compliance--that increases risk and that, too, is a separate benefit for which private investors would expect to be compensated extra.

Our investments in Chrysler and GM would have been closer to home, given that the subject of the thread is government building one or more auto factories, but we claim to have made money on GM. I mentioned Solyndra only because it was the last big government acknowledged loss that made big news (probably because so many Americans were in dire straits at the time and media wanted to take a swipe at Obama). However, the fact that a large Obama donor was involved in Solyndra and that government advanced funds after the venture was looking dicey did raise questions about, at a minimum, process and prudence. At worst, it looked like payback, as our ambassadorships often are. (Which brings up why we still need ambassadors, but I digress...)

However, none of the above was on my mind when I made the original post. All the original post was intended to say is that, all other things being equal, government has a strong preference for avoiding even the appearance of socialism, even if that avoidance costs taxpayers or other ordinary Americans. A far more glaring example would have been Obamacare vs. Medicare for All, but I was just not focused on the example. I didn't see my original post as even a little controversial.

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Shockwave's picture

Still, "road transportation" accounts for only 10.5% of CO2 emissions. 14% for transportation if you include sea and air according to the EPA. Clearly, electricity generation from renewables is the key since it can be used for industry and building warming and cooling but that is still nowhere near the total CO2 production.

We need to focus on this issue now perhaps with a Green New Deal as Jill Stein proposes.

And I look forward to all electric cars and trucks everywhere in the world.

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The political revolution continues

Outsourcing Is Treason's picture

(Not me, I drive this nice Nissan Leaf.) Electric power grids are mainly fueled by coal. If everyone drove electric, there would be world peace. The trillions we save on war could buy a lot of solar panels and wind farms and retire those dirty coal burning plants.

For more information on driving electric, I recommend visiting this forum where I and many other experienced EV drivers are happy to answer all your questions:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com

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"Please clap." -- Jeb Bush

and solvents. A lot of hydrocarbons are used in the manufacture of both. I often wonder just how much petro products are used manufacturing solar/wind devices.
It's kinda like the old days of nuke power (though I'm sure it's better these days) when all the petrol considered in the construction of a nuke plant would build and run a petro plant for the same twenty years the nuke could safely operate.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

tourniquet's picture

make a ton of plastics out of hemp oil. i've always wondered if the whole anti-MJ-medical-industry CT was far secondary to the fact that hemp oil could feasibly replace petro in a whole lot of areas, from diesel to plastics.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

PriceRip's picture

Electric power grids are mainly fueled by coal. If everyone drove electric, there would be world peace.

          Don't kid yourself your Leaf is not better than my Prius. Fossil fuels are all not good. We need to pressure power suppliers to go to a "Blue Sky Option". As for publicly owned power production: Consider the stupidity in Nebraska, the only state with exclusive public power. We (here in Nebraska) need to elect directors that are capable of understanding why fossil fuels are a bad option. We should be exporting (wind generated) energy to the rest of the U. S. of A.

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according to Treehugger reporting on recent data:

America passed an important milestone recently: the transportation sector now pumps out more Carbon dioxide than the electric power generation sector. Angie Schmitt of Streetsblog calls it “an indication of how slowly the American transportation sector is rising to the challenge of preventing catastrophic climate change.” But it is more than that; it is an indication of misplaced priorities and willful blindness.
[...]
But our buildings and houses are getting better, thanks to tightening building codes. Industrial emissions dropping even faster, due more to de-industrialization than any investment in efficiency. Transportation now is the biggest emitter, and keeps pointing upwards

Thanks

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Cassiodorus's picture

is to use this method of conversion for all fossil-fuel usage.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

elenacarlena's picture

the infrastructure without owning car companies, like they're doing in Hong Kong, http://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/english/environmentinhk/air/prob_solutions/pro...

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Cassiodorus's picture

My proposal is superior to any mere corporate subsidy, for obvious reasons.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

tourniquet's picture

if it would get the government working on solar and battery efficiency. the problem with solar vehicles is they need a certain amount of sunlight to charge, and solar panels are absolute shit for efficiency. we need new technology before they'll be viable in-all-cases in places like the pacific northwest where it'll rain for ten days straight. not to be super hyperbole man here, but what happens when that one mother can't get their child to the hospital because their car wasn't charged? petro is energy now, with very little forethought.

frankly, (and i don't think it's the right direction, in fact i totally agree with your sentiment) fossil fuels are so energy-packed that if we could work out how to make a viable, say, 75% efficiency petro based engine we'd be fucking set for a long time. oil companies have about as much interest in such a thing as they do solar vehicles, though. the petro industry is a textbook on not giving a fuck about your grandchildren.. at least inasmuch as they won't be able to eat money, or live underwater.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

elenacarlena's picture

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Cassiodorus's picture

The main one is that when ALL vehicles are electric we get to shut off the gas pumps. The Hong Kong idea merely supplements the fossil economy.

My ultimate goal is to end the fossil economy altogether. Yours? Not sure.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

I used to believe it too, could imagine it. Not now because the lithium for storage batteries is yet another excuse for never ending occupation wars. The future of Silicon Valley may lie in the mountains of Afghanistan

United States Geological Survey teams discovered one of the world’s largest untapped reserves of lithium there six years ago. The USGS was scouting the volatile country at the behest of the U.S. Department of Defense’s Task Force for Business and Stability Operations. Lithium is a soft metal used to make the lithium-ion and lithium-polymer batteries essential for powering desktop computers, laptops, smartphones, and tablets. And increasingly, electric cars like Tesla’s.

Searching and reading about the DoDs "Task Force for Business and Stability Operations" kind of sickened me, like exploitation does. White man's burden much? f*ck!

https://afghanistan.cr.usgs.gov/minerals

Following the assessment, two dozen mineralized Areas of Interest (AOIs) were selected for further study. From 2009 through early 2011, geologists with USGS and the Department of Defense Task Force for Stability Operations (TFBSO) worked with AGS to compile detailed digital data about AOI mineral deposits. Field-checked data were then combined with additional information to create mineral resource Information Packages to aid in the development of Afghanistan’s mineral resources. This work culminated in the 2011 report, Summaries of Important Areas for Mineral Investment and Production Opportunities of Nonfuel Minerals in Afghanistan, and a summarizing fact sheet. The report consists of an overview of each AOI and its associated hyperspectral mapping analysis and geohydrologic summary. High-resolution versions of the figures for the hyperspectral mapping analysis can be downloaded here.

Park it, sell it, junk it, don't drive it.
Boiling Frogs News: Comprehensive Study finds Widespread Mercury Contamination Across Western North America

“Mercury is widespread in the environment, and under certain conditions poses a substantial threat to environmental health and natural resource conservation,” said Collin Eagles-Smith, USGS ecologist and team lead. “We gathered decades of mercury data and research from across the West to examine patterns of mercury and methylmercury in numerous components of the western landscape. This effort takes an integrated look at where mercury occurs in western North America, how it moves through the environment, and the processes that influence its movement and transfer to aquatic food chains.”

More than 80 percent of fish consumption advisories posted in the United States and Canada are wholly or partially because of mercury. Fish consumption provides many health benefits to people, but the presence of mercury at high concentrations in fish can reduce some of those benefits. Balancing the protection of human health from mercury while also communicating health benefits associated with fish consumption requires detailed information about the distribution of mercury among fish species and across various aquatic systems.

“The movement of mercury through the western landscape - traveling between the air, ground, and water to plants, animals, and ultimately humans, is extremely complex,” said Eagles-Smith. “This series of articles helps further our understanding of the processes associated with that complexity in western North America, highlights where knowledge gaps still exist, and provides information to resource managers that will help with making informed, science-based management and regulatory decisions.

LOL wtf does the decision-making part matter, except as cover for more industry pollution? Because words! Is what I feel reduced to after 57 years in declining Northern California, the poisoning continues. Please, no more. Don't say drought when some ass in Hollywood wastes everything I save to keep some grass green. It is inhumane how California's wealthy leaders and representatives ignore reality. How did this happen? I kept voting for the lesser evil, I guess that's how. Please, no more.

Thanks

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

still nowhere near as bad as the consequences of mining and burning petrochemicals.

And being a Floridian, with a very vulnerable water supply and a fishing industry down here, I am very aware of the dangers of mercury.

What we're doing now is still worse.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Crude Oil Production, as the world burns.

California Field Production of Crude Oil Downward trend good except severe drop is what's needed, apparently.

Idiotic left hand knows no right hand: Gasoline and Diesel Fuel Update
Yeah cheap gas, that'll help. /sad sarc

Thanks

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

pretty much anyone else; it would take the bankers or the security state turning against them to provide enough power to oppose them in the manner you describe.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

to make it happen. I'm just tired of reading proposals for "climate change mitigation" that depend upon the notion that if the corporations buy a couple of solar panels the rest of the world will magically stop burning fossil fuels.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Sorry, I haven't been reading that sort of thing since the Paris agreement, which I'm apparently alone in thinking sucks. I stopped reading policy proposals on climate from mainstream sources after that. I can understand why reading proposals like that would make you want to propose something else.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

"Climate change mitigation in fantasy and reality"...

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Something about me: if you want me to do something quickly, or not be ditzy about it and forget for a while and get back to it, tell me you want me to do it by a certain time.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Reminds me of a very old American recipe for a pork dish that begins (true!), "First, catch a pig, kill it and butcher it."

Or Steve Martin's "How to be a Millionaire and Never Pay Taxes" bit: "First, make a million dollars. Next...."

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

I think EV's are a good stepping stone to a carbon neutral environment.

I sell solar for a living and the holy grail for the industry is power storage (batteries). We have developed inexpensive and robust solar modules and highly efficient inversion. But if you don't use it, you lose it.

We need to focus our resources on a cheap battery. We are still using lead acid batteries for off grid applications today...in 2016 ! Lithium Ion is light weight but unstable. If your EV catches fire and the firetruck only has water, they watch it burn. Lithium and water = not good.

If we can store our solar and wind generation, it should be game over for global warming. We'll see. There are lots of capitalist enemies to this development so it's gonna take government intervention to solve the issue. How much you wanna bet it's NOT the US government that intervenes ?

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Pluto's Republic's picture

Some of the best ideas and most profound insights in this community emerge from the comments and reactions and responses we share. it is in these interactions where inspiration is born. This is the "stuff" that makes civilizations great.

I would encourage everyone to develop and expand their comments when they are energized by their own insights. Those are the moments you are channeling the Tao and directly participating in the evolution of the species.

As a practical matter, it will deepen conversations and supplant topics emblematic of amateur journalism that are circling the drain here.

::

Regarding the topic at hand — the unsustainable exploitation and depletion of this planet's resources — I think it is always important to restate the powerful realities that are generating the problem or issue, in the first place. When thinking people can remain mindful of that, only then can they fix the problem and change the world.

1. The root cause of all ecosystemic destruction on this planet is catastrophic overpopulation by homo sapiens, by at least a factor of three.

2. The key struggle inspiring all modern war conflicts is the battle between a communal system of natural survival and a predatory system of natural survival. In any case, resource scarcity is a feature, not a bug.

3. The most powerful civilization influencing global outcomes in this era, stopped all domestic nation-building more than fifty years ago, rendering it the only developed civilization without a modern infrastructure. It also ceased all investment in domestic human capital to benefit the future of its population.

These are facts, not opinions.

::

Given the scope and drivers and interpretations of the problem, I wonder if I should choose paper or plastic next time I go to the grocery.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

Denim. Made in factories run on and maintained by petro. Raw materials processed and delivered by petro. To be laundered by petro in a machine built, maintained, and delivered by petro. They have you coming and going. If oil disappeared we'd be thrown back to the 17th century. And 17th century technology won't cut it with our population. Our world is fed on petro fertilizers, herb/pesticides, and ag practices.
We NEED a whole new way of thinking!

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

I learned "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" in the 70s. Recently, in the mail came a big glossy foldout from the local garbage hauler, including section on "Plastics 101" schooling consumers how "the low price of oil has destroyed the recyclables market for plastic." So it goes to landfill now. Also, shredded paper gets dumped now too.

Unacceptable Materials
Do not place the following non-recyclable materials into your blue cart.
[...]
Plastics labeled as "Compostable" or "Biodegradable"
Plastic utensils
Plastic Bags and Film

Styrofoam
Shredded Paper
[...]

SNAFU. "We NEED a whole new way of thinking!" Right on, ghotiphaze. Statim!

Peace

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riverlover's picture

Here we can still recycle paper and plastics. I have not spied the big bins (and they now allow mixed paper and plastic) to see where they end up, but garbage goes to a landfill in another county. I still separate paper, collected in those big yard waste paper bags. Actual yard waste is not collected in the rural areas. I have a home constructed fire pit, full to overflowing because the local drought has caused burning bans. My neighbor accidentally let a fire go and burned down a shed. Fire department came. I do not know whether he was charged for the visit. I took that as a hint.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Pluto's Republic's picture

Given the scope and drivers and interpretations of the problem, I wonder if I should choose paper or plastic next time I go to the grocery.

That was your takeaway? A cry in the wilderness for personal recycling strategies?

You don't think that is, perhaps, denial talking?

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Pluto's Republic's picture

But, wouldn't you just know it? Those comments were very helpful after all, in unique ways. I had to rec each one.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
thanatokephaloides's picture

1. The root cause of all ecosystemic destruction on this planet is catastrophic overpopulation by homo sapiens, by at least a factor of three.

This above all! Fossil fuel usage would be a non-problem if the world's population was what it was in 1975 (or better still, 1960).

2. The key struggle inspiring all modern war conflicts is the battle between a communal system of natural survival and a predatory system of natural survival. In any case, resource scarcity is a feature, not a bug.

It's "a feature not a bug" to the predatory systems only. Communal systems are better at avoiding the entire scarcity problems to begin with as they have no baked-in "reasons" to lie when scarcity problems do arise; instead, they are faster to recognize them and act accordingly. A passage from one famous Pirate Code is instructive on this issue:

“Every man shall have an equal vote in affairs of moment. He shall have an equal title to the fresh provisions or strong liquors at any time seized, and shall use them at pleasure unless a scarcity makes it necessary for the common good that a retrenchment may be voted.”

source

Please remember that although a Pirate Ship is a predatory culture externally, it is a fully communal culture internally. Nearly all pirate ships elected their captains and officers -- and could remove them if necessary. Moreover, the captains weren't exempt from the Articles and the punishments set forth therein, either.

3. The most powerful civilization influencing global outcomes in this era, stopped all domestic nation-building more than fifty years ago, rendering it the only developed civilization without a modern infrastructure. It also ceased all investment in domestic human capital to benefit the future of its population.

Or even the present-day state of its current population, for that matter.

I'm old enough to remember an America where this wasn't true; when we were still building our own nation and I had every possibility of living in the greatest nation in history, as my parents and grandparents did. But then, as you state above, all domestic investment in ordinary people and their well-being ceased, and I was one of millions of kids in school when that happened. Needless to say, we got royally screwed. And today, our domestic infrastructure is about as modern as if it had cut development off at the Ancient Roman Imperial level.

These are facts, not opinions.

I can testify to that last sentence as being a fact as well.

Diablo

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Pluto's Republic's picture

[Resource scarcity] is "a feature not a bug" to the predatory systems only. Communal systems are better at avoiding the entire scarcity problems to begin with…

That seems correct to me, as well, where the rubber meets the road.

I referred to scarcity as a "feature" in a metaphysical sense. Scarcities occur really frequently in the natural course of events, so much so, that they can only be regarded as agencies of evolution; they make life, itself, smarter and more complex and agile. Adaptation is another word for evolution in the same way that necessity is the mother of invention. This whole "life" thing appears to be moving in a very specific direction for a very specific purpose.

But in a physical sense, it is fair to argue that communal systems are more likely to naturally monitor difficulty and scarcity in their environments and better able to cope and anticipate for a collective purpose. Predatory systems do not have collective purposes; they have winners and losers.

An example of an evolutionary-level communal response to a clear environmental threat was China's generation-long "one-child" program. It was a bold and courageous move that also fulfilled a collective purpose — it lifted a vast middle class from poverty to unlimited possibility while sharply correcting its path of explosive and irresponsible population growth.

In effect, China has done more to mitigate the environmental catastrophe we currently face than all other nations combined, over the same period. All the while being condemned and smeared for their sacrifice by the world's leading predatory system.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
thanatokephaloides's picture

In effect, China has done more to mitigate the environmental catastrophe we currently face than all other nations combined, over the same period. All the while being condemned and smeared for their sacrifice by the world's leading predatory system.

At least the Chinese were willing to face the fact that the Population Ponzi must collapse, like all other Ponzi schemes. Unfortunately, China is now heading directly in the direction of the predators. Capitalism with all the disadvantages and none of the benefits for most of the people. You'd think that the Chinese would have seen what we've become and figure out that they don't want to go that way.....

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Which environmental catastrophe? CO2 shot through the roof since Bush/Obama. List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions

China 10,540,000 7.6
United States 5,334,000 16.5
European Union 3,415,000 6.7
[...]

Talk about a hockey stick.
China CO2 emission

I chose never to have children because I already felt there were too many people. Dubbed a club "Overshooters Anonymous" riffed after reading the charts and graphs here: Approaching the limits of growth. Nods agreement.

http://paulchefurka.ca/Sustainability.html

Ever since the writing of Thomas Malthus in the early 1800s, and especially since Paul Ehrlich’s publication of “The Population Bomb” in 1968, there has been a lot of learned skull-scratching over what the sustainable human population of Planet Earth might “really” be over the long haul.

This question is intrinsically tied to the issue of ecological overshoot so ably described by William R. Catton Jr. in his 1980 book “Overshoot:The Ecological Basis of Revolutionary Change”. How much have we already pushed our population and consumption levels above the long-term carrying capacity of the planet?

This article outlines my current thoughts on carrying capacity and overshoot, and presents six estimates for the size of a sustainable human population.

Climbing the Ladder of Awareness

How people cope with despair is of course deeply personal, but it seems to me there are two general routes people take to reconcile themselves with the situation. These are not mutually exclusive, and most of us will operate out of some mix of the two. I identify them here as general tendencies, because people seem to be drawn more to one or the other. I call them the outer path and the inner path.

If one is inclined to choose the outer path, concerns about adaptation and local resilience move into the foreground, as exemplified by the Transition Network and Permaculture Movement. To those on the outer path, community-building and local sustainability initiatives will have great appeal. Organized party politics seems to be less attractive to people at this stage, however. Perhaps politics is seen as part of the problem, or perhaps it's just seen as a waste of effort when the real action will take place at the local level.

If one is disinclined to choose the outer path either because of temperament or circumstance, the inner path offers its own set of attractions.

Thanks

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Outsourcing Is Treason's picture

While they poison the world with greenhouse gases, the fossil fuel industry is at work casting fear, uncertainty, and doubt on the obvious solution of driving electric. There is so much money at stake for those greedy 1%ers, an estimated $13 trillion in fossil fuel if they could suck it out of the earth and burn it. In the case of lithium, the vast majority of proven, known reserves are in Chile, Argentina, Australia, and China. Don't believe the bullshit fear mongering about Afghanistan.

Donald Trump himself inadvertently admitted ("We should have taken their oil!") that the ME war is all about the oil, 'bout the oil, 'bout the oil...

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"Please clap." -- Jeb Bush

and don't support ANY of the US's imperial occupations, the blowback is never "worth it". Well, I guess if you like cheap gas it is, and cheap fertilizer, and cheap plastic stuff.

Oof, here I am glancing at the No Blood For Oil! button stuck to the corkboard, what happened since? The citizenry can longer prevent or stop any (mercenary) wars and occupations, that is a bummer. Bloody Obama.

Peace & Love
Oom

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Latin America are apparently not to be tolerated.

Weren't they in some sort of market together, like a mini-EU?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Hawkfish's picture

Do you mean for everyone's roof?

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

riverlover's picture

clear-cutting over 10 trees, probably many more. I use propane for heat, There was some discussion about ground-source heating, a neighbor with a field has gone solar and ground-source. I have yet to hear how that's working, but she had wells drilled. I have the tree problem. And I have not heard of domestic hot water without another fuel to heat the water to 140. Tankless hot water now, I could go to small units at each sink, sounds expensive to me.

My heat came on this week with the cool-down. I still have electric baseboard for emergencies. I have not used them since the new unit.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Hawkfish's picture

Look at tesla. They are basically a well run version of what you are advocating. Musk once pointed out that only two car companies have never been in bankruptcy court (Ford and Tesla) and that in his case it was mostly dumb luck.

And despite all Tesla's whizz bang tech and focus on R&D, Chevrolet just beat them to the first EV with an "acceptable" range (the new Bolt hatchback). The depth of the existing carmakers in research and manufacturing is not to be sneezed at. Tesla's battery swapping is important, but they opened the patents, so it's now a public good and doesn't need Tesla any more.

The best way for the government to get a car company would be to grab the next one that needs bailing out. Restructure it as a worker/government owned coop and set it loose.

Oddly enough, I suspect that the next car company in bankruptcy court may well be Tesla. This would be a big win because they only make electric cars.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Cassiodorus's picture

The government could just seize the equipment of car companies moving their facilities elsewhere, for instance.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Hawkfish's picture

There is design, safety (which is huge and complex) and supply chain just to name a few - I know next to nothing about the industrial processes involved and I'm sure I missed something big..

Moreover, most of the facilities being moved elsewhere are not EV manufacturing (there just isn't very much of that right now). Bodywork maybe, but a lot of the internals are specialized.

The hard thing about his problem is forcing people to do what they don't want to do. Musk tried to make electric cars sexy, and that may end up being his biggest contribution to the problem. I'm all for forcing people out of their ICE cars but I can't see it happening without a big change in the political environment.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Cassiodorus's picture

There just won't be any gasoline around to power it.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Hawkfish's picture

Supplying the cars is the tricky part. My comment above about coops runs afoul of the scaling problem: in Mondragon they found that you couldn't really manage a coop larger than 500 people. Dunbar's number of 150 seems to work better.

One thing that might help is standardization. If a single decent design could be put in the public domain, then the kinds of factory takeovers being discussed elsewhere might work. Such designs could come from eminent domain applied to existing companies or be part of bailout terms for the next failure.

I'm really not trying to be negative btw - the situation is just so dire and urgent I'm really focussed on what can be done today - if not last week.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

thanatokephaloides's picture

One thing that might help is standardization. If a single decent design could be put in the public domain, then the kinds of factory takeovers being discussed elsewhere might work.

This kind of thing got us to victory in World War II. An example: Receiving tubes were standardized, so any company's 12AU7 or 6V6 would plug in and work where such a tube was called for. This kept military communications in business. The wartime standardization would last postwar, and the American electronics industry actually thrived on it for decades, until the spell was broken by transistorization (solid state). Then every company making semiconductors de-standardized, and we're right back where we started before the war.

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Hawkfish's picture

What happened was that everyone figured out that defining the standard gave you an early mover advantage. So everyone fought over standards and wasted untold amount of time and treasure on a stupid non-problem. It's so bad now that we have a saying in engineering:

The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

Dilbert has of course mocked this problem mercilessly.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Great Recession? I think I remember a GM bailout.

If so, the government and the UAW could have run the company and produced the good ideas that your diary recommends.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

Several years ago you'd regularly read in the paper of factories, usually in Central or South American countries, closing down because they were no longer profitable. Only to be squatted by the workers who reopened the plant and made them profitable again.
If a business is closed for six months I think the workers should be able to move in and set up operations on their own. Eminent Domain combined with Homestead Act: allow five years to show progress.
Then again, I think people like that Wells Fargo clown should have all his assets stripped under Civil Forfeiture and mount a defense with a public defender. Jail time served in industry prison. The joint smokers doing hard twenty can be moved to the country club prisons.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I wish we'd done this throughout the entire Rust Belt in the 70s-90s. What an awful waste of expertise.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Car magazines are fond of pointing out that EVs and Hybrids are more expensive to own than fossil fuel burners because the cost of car exceeds the savings in the fuel. If we rely on the free market we can kiss the environment goodbye.

Method one is to tilt the playing field perhaps with a carbon tax on the fuel or a registration/sales tax on the vehicle that is much less for EV/Hybrids.

Method two is to outlaw fossil fuel burners. Perhaps by decreeing effective fuel mileage out of the range of fossil fuel burning cars. Or you could decree CO2 limits as zero. Or you could just ban internal combustion engines in all passenger car/ light truck automobiles.

Method two is, in my opinion, the favored one. This is far more directly effective and democratic. The rich don't care how much tax they have to pay as long as they can drive their luxury car/SUV. This method is more effective.

Switching to EVs has to be accompanied with transitioning stationary electrical power plants to sustainable sources. After all, electrical energy is a secondary source, generated by a mix of primary sources, including coal, oil and gas today.

We have a lot to do and a big hill to climb to get the public behind this. We need to concentrate half of our effort on education and publicity.

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Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.

more than our transportation industry, Factory farms are also destroying the atmosphere at a rapid pace. So our eating habits will have to change as well. 1.About 10 billion land animals in the United States are raised for dairy, meat, and eggs each year.
2.Factory farming accounts for 37% of methane (CH4) emissions, which has more than 20 times the global warming potential of CO2.
3.Manure can also contain traces of salt and heavy metals, which can end up in bodies of water and accumulate in the sediment, concentrating as they move up the food chain.
4.When manure is repeatedly overapplied to farm land it causes dangerous levels of phosphorus and nitrogen in the water supply. In such excessive amounts, nitrogen robs water of oxygen and destroys aquatic life.
5.Burning fossil fuels to produce fertilizers for animal feed crops may emit 41 million metric tons of CO2 per year.
6.Globally, deforestation for animal grazing and feed crops is estimated to emit 2.4 billion tons of CO2 every year.
7.Corn, wheat, and rice, the fast-growing crops on which humanity depends for survival, are among the most nitrogen hungry of all plants.
8.Large-scale animal factories often give animals antibiotics to promote growth, or to compensate for illness resulting from crowded conditions. These antibiotics enter the environment and the food chain.
9.Factory farms contribute to air pollution by releasing compounds such as hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, and methane.
10.The US Department of Agriculture estimates that confined farm animals generate more than 450 million tonnes of manure annually, 3 times more raw waste than generated by Americans.
11.The waste lagoons on Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations (CAFOs) not only pollute our groundwater, but deplete it as well. Many of the farms use the groundwater for cleaning, cooling, and drinking.
The source of these numbers is Organic Consumer Assoc. and The Humane Society of the United States.

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PriceRip's picture

          The energy required to produce ethanol from corn exceeds the energy it can provide. The value of ethanol, as an additive, is a conundrum upon which I am not qualified to comment.

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PriceRip's picture

          Far too many people I encounter actually think my new Prius is somehow more than just an efficient fossil fueled vehicle. During the passed three months I have used these encounters to educate a cross section of the population between here and the west coast.

Blue Sky Option

          As I get my Oregon home prepped for occupation I have it designated as a solar/wind energy only domicile. As such Pacific Power Warranties all my energy use to be sourced from the wind farms of Eastern Oregon. True South Solar will install an innovative solar panel system in cooperation with Pacific Power. This installation will be sized at 100% with a "payback" period on the order of a decade and a performance expectation of the order of three and a half decades. I will present details (far more than you probably want to see) as I develop my OLLI presentation packages.

          As /user/Cassiodorus points out we need to do something yesterday. The first step should have been to shut down the extraction of fossil fuels long ago. But that is a lecture I presented long ago . . .

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Way back when, he was pushing seat belts but the big auto companies didn't want to make them standard equipment. So he persuaded the Feds to require seat belts in all the cars they bought (because they buy a lot of cars). They did and the industry noticed that if you wanted to market to the government, you had to put in seat belts. So seat belts became standard equipment.

The government should start buying only electric cars.

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Emmet

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Also--this won't happen, but in an alternate Mirror Mirror universe where it did--whichever country gets its military off fossil fuels, or largely off fossil fuels first, wins. Always assuming the country had a powerful military to begin with, of course.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Hawkfish's picture

Witness congress freaking out at their trying to prepare for worldwide climate chaos.

They are also working on using the massively over provisioned nukes on carriers to synthesize jet fuel from sea water. Logistics is probably the most important aspect of military tactics.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

WoodsDweller's picture

Of course, the end talks about how hard it will be to actually implement, etc.

I highly recommend subscribing to that channel, BTW.

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"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone

mhagle's picture

Exploring the Gap Between Business as Usual and Utter Doom is an article recently posted at Common Dreams/. It is by Richard Heinberg, one of the authors of the book Our Renewable Future.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/09/20/exploring-gap-between-busin...

The book's website:

http://ourrenewablefuture.org/

In response to the book:

http://www.resilience.org/

Seems to me your essay would fit in well here!

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

of a car company—GM, and we could have done exactly as you say.

Instead all the taxpayers' shares were sold over time—at a loss of about $10 billion.

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