On Good and Evil

The oldest law of the internet is Godwin's Law. When a Hitler/Nazi comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress.
This is what I thought of when I read this headline: This Is 1938, With the Nazis! First, They Came for the Unvaccinated!

First, "the papers." Vaccine mandates and vaccine passports are just like 1938, when the Gestapo demanded papers from every German.

Republicans asked for "papers" from migrants who had broken into our country. Criminals. Democrats said, "No, that's racism." Republicans asked for "papers" once every two years for federal elections, to prove you have a right to vote. Democrats said, "No, that's racism."

Now Democrats want American citizens, not illegal aliens, not criminals, but patriots born in this country, to produce papers 24/7.

Aside from the fact that there are no vaccine mandates, and that migrants are most certainly asked for identification, supposedly not asking for ID disproves his point.
But then this isn't exactly a deep article. Nietzsche isn't worried that someone is going to prove his Beyond Good and Evil wrong. Nor does it appear that Nietzsche will be challenged in the near future. Political rhetoric in the U.S. today is simplistic, bordering on childlike.
Matt Taibbi noticed this as well.

In the social media age, our conception of both good and evil has been dulled to the point where the horror the book represents, and what it says about the absurd nature of human morality, has become invisible to modern readers. The flip side of the woke revolution is that it’s so trivialized the idea of evil that a generation is growing up unable to see and understand the depths of the real thing.
Scan Twitter this morning and you’ll see a smorgasbord of news stories superficially concerned with human villainy. The news for years now has been obsessively interested in taxonomic surveys of Good and Bad people, constantly separating one from the other and galvanizing the former to attack the latter, who are identified and attacked with machine regularity: R. Kelly, Bret Kavanaugh, Trump, Flannery O’Connor, Chris Pratt, Trump again, the unvaccinated, etc.

Taibbi was speaking of Andrew Cuomo, and how liberals have expressed such outrage about his sexual harassment, while showing little interest in his criminal role in the deaths of thousands of elderly in his state. It reminds me of how liberals were so outraged when Trump banned Muslim refugees from the middle east, while showing no concern about the fact that those very same refugees were fleeing our bombs.

It's easy and popular to point out how the liberals have gone nuts in recent years.
What everyone seems to have forgotten is that conservatives went nuts first.

Remember when Benghazi was the worst contemporary scandal in America, despite Republicans inability to articulate what the scandal was exactly?
Remember when Colin Kaepernick was being so disrespectful to America for the crime of kneeling, despite the fact that there is literally no other instance in your life when kneeling is a sign of disrespect?
Republicans like to call liberals snowflakes for being so easily offended. Yet every year Republicans have a panic attack when someone says "Happy Holidays".

It’s bad enough that in the Internet age the presence of a functioning cell phone camera during 15-30 seconds of lamentable judgment can consign one person to a life of infamy while someone who traffics in genuinely evil choices on a daily basis, dumping deadly toxins or doing PR for dictators or governing the State of New York by tribute, can still win Man of the Year or a key to a city with a donation or two.

How are both liberals and conservatives so tone deaf to their own hypocrisy? How are they both so unable to put things into perspective?
I believe the answer to those questions are directly related to our simplistic and childlike view on good and evil.

Let's consider the first article, describing anti-covid measures to appeasing the Nazis in 1938. Literally any time someone argues against going to war, it's Munich in 1938 all over again. It's never ANY other place or time in history.
What's more, even if the allies hadn't appeased Hitler in 1938, it wouldn't have prevented WWII, and the allies were in no condition to go to war in 1938, so the comparison means absolutely nothing in reality.
The dispute today comes down to freedom, and that's a subject where people's thinking ability gets turned off.

For instance, Republicans like to equate capitalism with freedom. They never ask the question, "At what point during the workday, when the boss tells me what to do, when to do it, and where to do it, do I tell myself 'This is freedom'?"
Republicans also equate any gun control with tyranny, despite the fact that if you oppose violent felons being able to buy guns, then you support gun control too.
Both liberals and conservatives revere the Star-Spangled Banner as a symbol of freedom, despite it glorifying the killing of any slaves who are fighting for their freedom.

But today's tyranny is wearing a mask during a pandemic.
Hey, it's just the flu! Yes, it is just the flu. A flu that's killed half a million American lives.
Hey, it's only killing old and/or sickly people. Yes, so?
Hey, it's my body. Forcing me to wear a mask infringes on my freedom.
I'll grant that wearing a mask is a pain. But this is where you draw the line? Really?
We are living in the most oppressive surveillance state in all of history. We are living in the largest prison state in the world. Our 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments have been under attack for decades.
But wearing a mask is your red line, huh?

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snoopydawg's picture

Weren't Jews injected with experimental drugs by the depraved Nazi government? Wasn't that a key part of the Nuremberg trials? That no government could ever again inject experimental shots into the bodies of unwilling citizens? Isn't that a basic human right?

C2E32354-E389-4902-9B98-152C5AEACAE6.jpeg
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Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?

@snoopydawg Is the government injecting experimental shots into the bodies of unwilling citizens like the Nazis?
I seriously doubt it.
And are you really going to compare today to the Holocaust?

Because if you are then you are just proving my point.
So I'm hoping that you are being sarcastic.

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@gjohnsit
I see several paragraphs of the Nuremberg Code being violated with the way the govt. is handling the experimental mRNA shots. Also, though Paul Craig Roberts may seem extreme, the CDC link at the end of his paragraph is frightening:
“The CDC has come up with a plan to shield “high-risk” people by moving them into “green zone” camps where “they would have minimal contact with family members.” Who is designated “high-risk”? The front people for the internment camp plan are the elderly with co-morbidities. But the vaccination propaganda defines “high-risk individuals” as the unvaccinated. The camps will be for the unvaccinated. You will be able to stay out of the camps by getting vaccinated. No, this is not a “conspiracy theory.” Here is the CDC document on the CDC’s own website: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-appr...

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Anya

@Anya
We are talking about the Holocaust. The Holocaust!
If ever you are uncertain if your position is hyperbolic, you should ask yourself this question: "Am I comparing some situation to the Holocaust?"
If the answer is 'yes', then you are being hyperbolic.

vacc.jpg

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@gjohnsit Are agree, gimme liberty or give me breate!

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@Snode
For those people who believe that getting a vaccine with microchip them.

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CB's picture

@gjohnsit
has been away from America too long.

He hasn't heard of Project Jumpstart. (As yet it's not refined enough to make a connection to satellites w/o using the scanner at your local Home Hardware.)

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGJjE6a0Nxc]

Just think of the other benefits. This could also do away with point of sales purchases, bank cards, driver's licenses, airplane ticketing, keys for your home, illegal aliens - the list goes on and on.

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usefewersyllables's picture

@CB

because it fits whether you are serious or not. From 1967, just showing that everything old is indeed new again...[video:https://youtu.be/PebCB0IIANI]

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

CB's picture

@usefewersyllables
to that than most people realize.

How the Unthinkable Became Thinkable: COP26, The Great Reset and the Rise of the New Eugenics

As much as it might cause us a fair deal of displeasure and even an upset stomach to consider such ideas as the hold eugenics has on our presently troubled era, I believe that ignoring such a topic really does no one any favors in the long run.

This is especially serious, as leading World Economic Forum darlings like Yuval Harari flaunt such concepts as “the new global useless class” which Artificial intelligence, genetic engineering, automation and the Fourth Industrial Revolution is supposedly ushering in. Other Davos creatures like Klaus Schwab call openly for a microchipped global citizenry capable of interfacing with a global web with a single thought while Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg promote ‘neuralinks’ to “keep humanity relevant” by merging with computers in a new epoch of evolutionary biology.

Leading Darwinian geneticists like Sir James Watson and Sir Richard Dawkins openly defend eugenics while a technocracy consolidates itself in a governing station using a “Great Reset” as an excuse to usher in a new post-nation state era.

If there is something fundamentally evil lurking behind these processes which has any connection to the Anglo-American rise of fascism and eugenics nearly a century ago, then let’s at least have the courage to explore that possibility. It was after all, only by looking at this ugliness 80 years ago, that patriots were able to take appropriate measures to prevent a bankers’ technocratic dictatorship in 1933 and again during WW2.. so perhaps a similar display of courage to think the unthinkable might be worth the effort for those who might find themselves in a similar situation today.
...

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@usefewersyllables
It looks great.

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usefewersyllables's picture

@gjohnsit

"The President's Analyst", James Coburn, 1967, and it is one of my all-time favorite films: it takes the rampant paranoia of the Cold War and maps it all onto The Phone Company. It is broad, stinging satire, and was brilliantly done. Which is why it didn't even achieve cult status until perhaps the 90s. It is available via streaming, and it is highly recommended.

The creation and reinforcement of paranoia as a tool for societal management is still one of the primary go-to mechanisms in use by the oligarchy. All you need is a boogeyman. The Phone Company back then, the RushinChinezeAlbanians/vaccines now- everything old is new again.

There are no chips in the vaccines. Source: I am a professional microprocessor designer, currently very active in the art, and conversant in the current state of the technology.

The smallest injectable RFID tag at this point is 1.4mm diameter, and goes in via a 1.8mm diameter needle (basically, a freakin' howitzer barrel). If they were going to shoot you up with one of these, you can believe me when I say that *you'd know it.* Here's the previous generation of the technology: there's a reason they take your pets into the back room when they implant these, because it makes a very large hole and would hurt like a bastard, and the sight of the needle alone would scare most pet owners away.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, is clandestinely injecting RFID chips into the unwary members of the general public without their permission or knowledge. The technology simply does not exist at this time, and isn't likely to exist in my lifetime. There is a minimum size required for the antenna (the copper coil on the ferrite slug in the pictured device), and it is *big*- far too big to fit through the 24ga needle used for the vaccines.

Sorry if that offends anyone: but this particular trope is indeed pure, unadulterated fantasy- even if it is (marginally) closer to reality today than it was in 1967.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

CB's picture

@usefewersyllables

Researchers Develop What May Be the Smallest RFID Chip

The UHF RFID chip, developed by a team at North Carolina State University, is about twice the width of a human hair and is reportedly small enough to enable RFID tags to cost less than a cent apiece and be applied to low-value goods.

May 31, 2021North Carolina State University (NCSU)'s Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering reports that it has found a way to build an RFID chip that eliminates the majority of analog components. The chip, according to the college, thereby relies on digital- rather than analog-based RF power harvesting. As a result, NCSU claims, it measures less than half the size of the smallest chips currently being sold.

The university says the chip compromises some sensitivity and should be readable via a standard RFID reader from a distance of only about 3 meters (9.8 feet), as opposed to 10 meters (32.8 feet) with a standard tag. But otherwise, NCSU reports, it is expected to exhibit performance similar to that of other UHF RFID chips on the market. The team is furthering research and predicts it will be able to close this sensitivity disparity gap.

The NCSU research-based chip has an area of 125 microns (0.005 inch) by 245 microns (0.01 inch). For context, a human hair is 50 microns (0.002 inch) in diameter, according to Paul Franzon, the group's lead researcher. Franzon authored a white paper based on the project and is NCSU's Cirrus Logic distinguished professor of electrical and computer engineering. The chip operates in the 860 to 960 MHz UHF band, with -2 dBm sensitivity.
...

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usefewersyllables's picture

@CB

Now, productize it. Make it implantable, which is to say put it (and its antenna, which is not integrated onto the chip itself) into some sort of a container that is biologically inert- like the sealed glass tube used on the current implantable devices.

But oh, wait: it operates in the 860-960MHz band, which is a real problem: RF in that band only penetrates tissues to a very shallow depth, perhaps 1cm. And the RF has to not only penetrate in to power the device, but it has to propagate back out (essentially, via variations in the standing-wave ratio) to allow it to be detected by the transmitter in order to receive and decode what is sent. So it'd have to be shallow- ideally, right on the surface. It can't be placed in the deep intramuscular regions (which is where the vaccines go, 2-3cm down). Why implant it if you have to cook the recipient to read it? They will notice!

The existing implantable devices operate in the 100-200KHz range specifically to allow them to be buried intramuscularly, and even so they can only be read from about 6-12" away at the max. The lower the RF frequency, the deeper the penetration into the tissues.

Why do I know this? I once designed a system using RFID tags to allow a client to inventory merchandise (in this case, pallets full of stacked drywall wallboard- not a particularly sexy application) as they passed by a monitoring station on a forklift, and later on freight cars as they left the factory. It was important to the client that they be able to detect the state of cure of the wallboard as well as inventorying the product, so I went with a moisture-sensitive design, similar to this.

The tag was 5" x 1/2", which was all antenna- the RFID chip die was only 400ux300u (that teeny little black dot in the middle). The system failed, and was ultimately abandoned except for in-factory inventory use, because the 800 MHz RF energy was absorbed by rain- so it could only be used on the flatcars in sunny weather. Oh, well.

But that was just me. If you want something to really get upset about, you should know that (for a period of time) every single article of merchandise in any Wal-Mart had an RFID tag attached to it.

Every one of them. Many (if not most) of them still do. That was part of a grand scheme by Wal-Mart management to completely eliminate cashiers and optical scanners, by having customers walk through an RFID portal, where their bill would be tallied and presented to them for payment. It was also intended as a loss prevention mechanism, since shoplifters wouldn't know where the tags were and would very likely be detected as they walked out.

You can tell how well it worked by looking at how many Wal-Marts have no checkstands any more, and how they no longer use Knogo dye tags attached to high-value items like clothing.

But hey, you probably still have Wal-Mart blue jeans with the tags stuck into the seams, where the 800MHz RF isn't attenuated at all. Think about that. *That's* what the NCSU device is intended for...

I have zero love for, and trust in, Da Gummint. I'm still really pissed at them for putting an RFID tag into my latest passport at renewal (they've been doing it since 2007)- not because it is there, but because the data it contains is completely unencrypted. Which was an unutterably stupid design choice, but par for the course for Da Gummint.

But this "vax-puts-chips-into-you" trope is a fantasy, even though it apparently is a very acceptable and even appealing fantasy for many. Argumentum ad populam doesn't make it any less a fantasy. It just shows that there are a great many people with no understanding of the technology whatsoever, just waiting for a demagogue to lead them astray.

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, but that part of the current vaccination controversy is too laughable to let stand. But don't let me talk you out of a good paranoid fantasy, though. If you believe that this is all true, then by Golly it is true for you, and you are absolutely free to live in a belief system of your own creation. Amurka, hoo rah!

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

CB's picture

@usefewersyllables
surreptitiously with the vaccines. I know that the current reports are complete nonsense.

But what I am saying is the technology to do so is rapidly being developed and will become commonplace sooner than we realize. That's why I put in the video from Sweden.

Tattoo Antenna Temporary Transfers Operating On-Skin (TATTOOS)
...
1 Introduction

RFID technology is used for tracking a variety of items. There are numerous applications where tracking of people would be beneficial which include elderly people with dementia; athletes; military; firefighters and ticketing for music or sports events. Using a tattoo tag that can be mounted directly onto the skin has many advantages over more traditional RFID tags. These include the added security and convenience to the user as the tag cannot be stolen or lost. One of the most desirable attributes of an RFID tag tattooed on the skin is an attractive shape for example a star; a smiley face or the logo of a sports team or organisation.
...
2 Wearable Antennas

Wearable technology is a popular topic in multiple disciplines which include medicine, engineering, architecture and fashion [2]. In today’s world the use of wireless connectivity is important which requires the development of wearable antennas. One of the difficulties with wearable antennas is attaining high levels of electromagnetic performance when in the presence of a human [3].
...

Just look at what is going on with AI in facial recognition, phone tracking and digital currency. Half the population is now willing to log into their cell phones and computers using a scan of their face. Apple is now scanning everyone's iPhones using AI to check for child porn. Do you think that these companies can be trusted to not use this information for ulterior motives.

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usefewersyllables's picture

@CB

bad things can happen someday, and for those bad things to happen, somebody may do them for some reason. Shoot, they may even make money at it. And, as I've pointed out, these bad things have been amply predicted in pop culture daily for for a long time- certainly since well before the movie I refer to above was made in 1967. Heinlein's "If This Goes On" comes to mind, and it was originally a serial that was published starting in 1940. And it was hardly the first.

I choose not to see that many boogeymen under my bed, and around every corner, especially on technical issues that I understand. The horrific things my government is doing to people are right out in public, visible to the world.

Bad things are happening now. RFID chips are not one of them. Watch the movie, if you care, and then compare and contrast many of the issues they focus on to what is actually happening today (you'll like the mugging scene).

Conditions right now are absolutely bad, and worsening. No question. But I plead with the public at large to please, please avoid issuing blanket condemnations of technology, medicine, and engineering as they try to find ways to condemn the actual bad things that are happening. And especially, I plead with the public at large to resist the temptation to invent new bad things to worry about, and moreover to convince others to worry about. The boogeymen don't need any further encouragement: people are already too scared to look under the bed.

And that's my last word on this entire topic: everyone's minds are made up. Argue away in good health, and with my blessing.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

@CB
Come on man, do your research

Hofman called such claims "complete fantasy."

"The chip is not an injectable device," he said. "It is like a barcode on a food item. The chip transmits information, it does not gather any. The chip is located on the outside of the container holding the vaccine."

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CB's picture

@gjohnsit
as part of Project Jumpstart as an option. It is similar as used in tagging pets. A binary code of 36 bits is sufficient to label every individual on the face of the earth.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWVQR99bXt8]

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@CB

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They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret-- A. Moore

CB's picture

CB's picture

@gjohnsit
it would be pointless to put the data on a RFID chip just for data transfer if they weren't going to inject it. It would be much more economical to just scan or peel off the standard optical bar code that has been pre-printed on the syringe which identifies product, lot number, expiry date, etc.

Whenever I get blood tests they print a series of custom optical bar code labels that the nurse doing the testing then peels off to attach to the individual vials to identify me to the lab. Any injections have optical bar code labels on the labels they then peel off and stick on my record to show I have received them.

It all starts by entering ONE code - my health number. They then confirm by asking my name, birth date and phone number to confirm what they have on the computer.

It is only a matter of time until they get the populace used to an RFID.

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Roy Blakeley's picture

@Anya You have miss-characterized it. The document provides suggested guidelines that might be used for low resource sites like refugee camps with relatively few high-risk individuals. The notion is to separate high risk individuals (e.g. the elderly) into separate, relatively small areas (e.g. schools or community buildings) where their physical interactions with people likely to carry the virus can be limited. (They could wave or chat with their families a few feet away but not hug them.) Of course, vaccination would more or less eliminate the need for these "green zones."

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Azazello's picture

@snoopydawg
That This is 1938... screed was the dumbest freaking thing I've ever read.
It was just a bunch of nonsense analogies from someone who, like most Americans, appears to have gotten his history from movies and T.V.

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We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.

Dawn's Meta's picture

@snoopydawg @snoopydawg @snoopydawg . I had just gone from being a cord board operator (many calls imitating Lilly Tomlin from Laugh-In). I would operate the swing shift by myself: twenty incoming lines connectable to over 200 extensions at the second largest community college in the US at the time. Best job I ever had.
Western Electric 608 cordboard
Here is a great clip from Ernestine Tomlin:
[video:https://youtu.be/RT4__Nz5HWY]

Then I was offered to be the in-house first ever privately owned, digital telephone switch operated in Oregon (Dimension 2000). AT&T trained me on site; our VP was regarded as a visionary; I had control down to the machine level (negotiated level of private control, meant fewer tech interventions and money savings for the college). The phone system was like an extension of me. I loved my machine. At the time Ma Bell was being broken up and I wanted my own phone system in Camp Sherman.

Then this movie - The President's Analyst - Nixon was the prez, came out and I laughed my socks off. I felt like the ultimate insider.

Unfortunately, much of the attitude if not the technology is here, and I'm alive to see it. Blech.

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A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.

Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.

earthling1's picture

Divide and conquer. Continuesly stir the crap pot. Keep the proles constantly agitated.
Look! Squirrel!
All while feining a helping hand.
Good post, gjohnsit.

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Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

lotlizard's picture

onto the Other (those who disagree with them), Democrats as much as Republicans, Republicans as much as Democrats — while various “wizards of Oz” pull levers and press buttons, firing fear and rage from behind a curtain.

Here’s a college prof, Dr. Gary Maynard, opining in an interview about “Evil” Trump’s psychological state:
https://artprofiler.com/reason-has-prevailed-what-is-there-to-fear/

And the “Good” professor’s own psychological state? Maynard was just arrested on suspicion of having set multiple California wildfires:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=gary+maynard+arson

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The Liberal Moonbat's picture

In a world where the Third Reich is revered (remember, maltheism is a form of worship) as our "Gold Standard of Evil", the modern concept of "Good and Evil" is derived from the very black-and-white perversion of traditional mythology that inspired the Nazis themselves!:

https://aeon.co/essays/why-is-pop-culture-obsessed-with-battles-between-...

Never has Nietzsche's famous admonition to those who would fight monsters been more relevant...or disappointingly ignored.

It's just the War On Terror with a tawdry makeover; I can't believe I have to thank post-9/11 jingoism for what, in hindsight, must've been the 'eye in the hurricane' of politically-correct PostTruth, a brief oasis of creative/comedic freedom that actually healed the things political-correctness was only making worse/insoluable!

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In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

QMS's picture

except for the employer ones
including health care workers,
first responders and many other
businesses, travelers & etc.

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@QMS .

.
I have been working from home at my job since a year before the pandemic. Nevertheless, based on the Team Spirit of Everybody Helping Save Lives, if I do not allow somebody to inject stuff into my body, I will be fired as of September 1. My job has zero public safety duties and there is no reason on earth for me to be in personal contact with anybody. But the Good Citizenship Hysteria is far more important to my employer than my personal qualms about what goes into my body.

So I am quitting my job. Luckily I am able to retire. None of my colleagues are.

As I retire about three or four years ahead of my original intention, I do not take any comfort in the idea that it was just my employer and not the Government itself that is trying to violate my personal autonomy. It does, I concede, constitute a significant distinction from Nazi Germany.

So far.

That quaint concept of personal autonomy is now known by clever science and medical experts on the internet as Freedumb.

What a perfect distillation of fascist ambition -- define freedom as stupidity.

Is this a great pandemic or what?

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

@QMS and front-line workers have had various vaccine and mask mandates for decades.
It's not something new.

I haven't heard of any vaccine mandates elsewhere. Mask mandates, yes. But I don't need to tell you that vaccines =! masks.

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CB's picture

@gjohnsit @gjohnsit
have a long history of efficacy and safety. They've gone through extensive testing for decades and more. The mRNA and adenovirus-based vaccines have not had this extensive testing and they are completely different in function from the current ones. These 'vaccines' manipulate the genetic structure of host cells in the body in order for them to express viral antigens and therefore could be better considered as gene therapy.

These gene therapies are all under Emergency Use Authorization and therefore cannot be mandated by the Federal Government.

Federal Law Prohibits Mandates of Emergency Use COVID Vaccines

Under federal law, employers and universities cannot legally mandate COVID vaccines because they are unlicensed Emergency Use Authorization products which are, by definition, experimental.

With more than 100 U.S. colleges mandating COVID vaccines for in-person attendance and schools enforcing mask mandates, it’s critical people understand their rights.

The bottom line is this: mandating products authorized for Emergency Use Authorization status(EUA) violates federal law as detailed in the following legal notifications.

All COVID vaccines, COVID PCR and antigen tests, and masks are merely EUA-authorized, not approved or licensed, by the federal government. Long-term safety and efficacy have not been proven.

EUA products are by definition experimental, which requires people be given the right to refuse them. Under the Nuremberg Code, the foundation of ethical medicine, no one may be coerced to participate in a medical experiment. Consent of the individual is “absolutely essential.”
...
All of the notifications include this language:

“Federal law, Title 21 U.S.C. § 360bbb-3(e)(1)(A)(ii)(I-III) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, states the following about products granted emergency authorization usage:

Individuals to whom the product is administered are informed—

(I) that the Secretary has authorized the emergency use of the product;

(II) of the significant known and potential benefits and risks of such use, and of the extent to which such benefits and risks are unknown; and

(III) of the option to accept or refuse administration of the product, of the consequences, if any, of refusing administration of the product, and of the alternatives to the product that are available and of their benefits and risks.

Any entity or organization that requires EUA COVID-19 vaccinations, COVID-19 tests or masks are in violation of federal law, and will likely face lawsuits if they don’t allow exemptions or alternatives.”
...

One of the most insidious aspects of this current situation that scares me, is how far the goal posts have been shifted since the outbreak of the virus a year and a half ago.

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@CB

These 'vaccines' manipulate the genetic structure of host cells in the body in order for them to express viral antigens and therefore could be better considered as gene therapy.

I'm curious where you got this idea. It's not true in the least.

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CB's picture

@peachcreek

Normal vaccines use the entire virus (protein subunit vaccines use just the spike) that is killed or attenuated and then is injected into your body. This material then circulates in the lymphatic system where it is recognized by your immune system. This material is not taken up by the normal cells in your body.

The gene based vaccines are actually absorbed by the cells in your body by different methods. They then commandeer these cells to produce the modified spike from the coronavirus - called the 'S' protein (red spikes sticking out of the virus in diagram). These S proteins are exuded from the cell surface and then presented to your immune system to deal with appropriately.

Different types of COVID-19 vaccines: How they work
...
The main types of COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the U.S. or being studied include:

Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine. This type of vaccine uses genetically engineered mRNA to give your cells instructions for how to make the S protein found on the surface of the COVID-19 virus. After vaccination, your immune cells begin making the S protein pieces and displaying them on cell surfaces. This causes your body to create antibodies. If you later become infected with the COVID-19 virus, these antibodies will fight the virus.

After delivering instructions, the mRNA is immediately broken down. It never enters the nucleus of your cells, where your DNA is kept. Both the Pfizer-BioNTech and the Moderna COVID-19 vaccines use mRNA.

Vector vaccine. In this type of vaccine, genetic material from the COVID-19 virus is placed in a modified version of a different virus (viral vector). When the viral vector gets into your cells, it delivers genetic material from the COVID-19 virus that gives your cells instructions to make copies of the S protein. Once your cells display the S proteins on their surfaces, your immune system responds by creating antibodies and defensive white blood cells. If you later become infected with the COVID-19 virus, the antibodies will fight the virus.

Viral vector vaccines can't cause you to become infected with the COVID-19 virus or the viral vector virus. Also, the genetic material that's delivered doesn't become part of your DNA. The Janssen/Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine is a vector vaccine. AstraZeneca and the University of Oxford also have a vector COVID-19 vaccine.

Protein subunit vaccine. Subunit vaccines include only the parts of a virus that best stimulate your immune system. This type of COVID-19 vaccine contains harmless S proteins. Once your immune system recognizes the S proteins, it creates antibodies and defensive white blood cells. If you later become infected with the COVID-19 virus, the antibodies will fight the virus.

Novavax is working on a protein subunit COVID-19 vaccine.
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@CB You said the mRNA vaccines alter the genetic structure of the cell. They do not. This is in no way gene therapy. For that, one alters the genomic DNA in the nucleus.

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CB's picture

@peachcreek
ALTER the genetic structure.

I said they MANIPULATE the cell's genetic machinery to produce a foreign substance. If the cell had no nucleus with genes or ribosomes or cytoplasm (all materials originally constructed by and from your genes) the vaccines would not be able to work as intended.

This is in no way gene therapy. For that, one alters the genomic DNA in the nucleus.

Form of Gene Therapy

Late last year, the Pfizer and Moderna COVID vaccines jabs were both licensed for emergency use only by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). As the vaccinations begin to spread among the world population, the growth of other gene therapies as a type of vaccination could increase.
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Form of Gene Therapy

The mRNA vaccinations are a form of gene therapy, according to its definition in many parts of the world, including Europe. Gene therapies remain under strict regulation and few gene therapeutics have been approved by health authorities because of safety concerns. Some experts are less concerned with the long-term risks of the mRNA vaccines, but more concerned about the efficacy of them, as mRNA is very fragile and if not properly stored, could be destroyed. These molecules can fall apart at room temperature. mRNA is a very fragile molecule, meaning it can be destroyed very easily compared to DNA.

Traditional vaccines revolved around injecting part of the pathogen, such as a protein or sugar, to induce an immune response. The COVID mRNA vaccine partly works by inducing local inflammatory reactions to trigger the immune system. The synthetic mRNA material, wrapped in an oily bubble coating made of lipid nanoparticles, delivers instructions to cells to make spike proteins to fight the virus. When synthetic mRNA enters the human patient, the material fuses to cells and cell’s molecules start to decode the genomic sequence to build the spike proteins. The immune system recognizes the spike protein as a foreign invader and produces antibodies against it. If the antibodies later encounter the actual coronavirus, they are ready to recognize and destroy it before it causes illness. Furthermore, the mRNA in the vaccine degrades in roughly 72 hours in order to not combine with human DNA.
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Human Genetic Modification

Human genetic modification is the direct manipulation of the genome using molecular engineering techniques. Recently developed techniques for modifying genes are often called “gene editing.” Genetic modification can be applied in two very different ways: somatic genetic modification and germline genetic modification.

Somatic genetic modification adds, cuts, or changes the genes in some of the cells of an existing person, typically to alleviate a medical condition. These gene therapy techniques are approaching clinical practice, but only for a few conditions, and at a very high cost.

Germline genetic modification would change the genes in eggs, sperm, or early embryos. Often referred to as “inheritable genetic modification” or “gene editing for reproduction,” these alterations would appear in every cell of the person who developed from that gamete or embryo, and also in all subsequent generations.

For safety, ethical, and social reasons, there is broad agreement among many scientists, ethicists, policymakers, and the public that germline editing is a red line that should not be crossed. Using germline editing for reproduction is prohibited by law in more than 40 countries and by a binding international treaty of the Council of Europe. However, in November 2108, a scientist named He Jiankui announced he had edited the genes of twin baby girls who had subsequently been brought to term. His reckless experimentation has been nearly universally condemned. This development has sparked new debate around human germline modification, particularly between parties who desire to push the technology forward and those who fear it could open the door to a new market-based form of eugenics.

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@CB And perhaps (I hope not?) a bit of hyperbolic explanations. This is to the point though that it pretty clear that your mind is made up and I don't feel the need to change it. Some last explanations though..

You did say manipulate and not alter, and for that I apologize, but either way you were talking about "manipulating the genetic structure of the cell".

A little background: I'm a scientist. Ph.D in the late 80's in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology and a University researcher for 30years. I worked on infectious disease early on, including vaccine/antigen design, and more recently RNA structure and detailing how RNA binding proteins recognize their target RNA. A lot of science is learning the precise vocabulary in ones chosen field. And a good way to get in a lot of trouble is to mis-state or overstate what the data says. So, as an example, to a scientist the term "genetic structure" has a much more precise meaning than how you are using it. If you had left out the word genetic, it would have been mostly ok. The mRNA is manipulated by the cell's machinery to produce the protein antigen. The cell's genetic structure is not manipulated.

And again, this is *not* gene therapy as scientists would use the term. Yes, there are papers out there in the popular press (unsigned in the reference you provide above) that claim such. If you care to look, there are also a number of articles in the popular press that explain why this should not be considered gene therapy. Words matter in science. A lot. I'm semi-retired now and a part-time farmer, so I've got no dog in this fight except as a citizen. But hyperbole in science will always elicit a knee jerk reaction from me. Sorry, it's trained in.

Peace.

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CB's picture

@peachcreek

And again, this is *not* gene therapy as scientists would use the term. Yes, there are papers out there in the popular press (unsigned in the reference you provide above) that claim such.

If you look at the diagram I included you will notice that the viral vector vaccine inserts a strand of DNA into the nucleus as an episome.

Gene therapy
Cell types
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Cell types
Gene therapy may be classified into two types:
Somatic
In somatic cell gene therapy (SCGT), the therapeutic genes are transferred into any cell other than a gamete, germ cell, gametocyte, or undifferentiated stem cell. Any such modifications affect the individual patient only, and are not inherited by offspring. Somatic gene therapy represents mainstream basic and clinical research, in which therapeutic DNA (either integrated in the genome or as an external episome or plasmid) is used to treat disease.
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Here's two peer reviewed and published papers:

Environmental Risk Assessment of Recombinant Viral Vector Vaccines against SARS-Cov-2
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3.1.1. Adenoviral Vectors
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Adenoviruses and their derived vectors exhibit a broad tropism, infecting a variety of dividing and nondividing cells. They stay as episomes in host cell nuclei with an integration into the cell genome being an extremely rare event [42,43]. For safety and efficacy reasons, adenoviral vector based vaccines have been rendered replication-defective by the deletion of the entire or part of the early gene E1, thereby affecting the capacity of the vector to replicate but not its ability to transduce host cells and to serve as a gene delivery tool.
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Adenovirus Vectors for Gene Therapy, Vaccination and Cancer Gene Therapy
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3. INTRODUCTION TO ADENOVIRUS VECTORS
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More than 400 gene therapy trials have been or are being conducted with human Ad vectors [2]. Most of these trials are for treatment of cancer, although some are for use of Ad vectors as vaccines in which the vector expresses a foreign antigenic protein or for gene therapy in which the vector expresses a non-mutant protein to correct a genetic defect. Also, millions of military recruits have been and are being immunized successfully against acute respiratory disease by gastrointestinal administration of live Ad serotype 4 (Ad4) and Ad7 vaccines in the form of enteric coated capsules [6]. Ad vectors have many advantages: Ads are well studied and Ad vectors can be grown into high titer stable stocks, they infect non-dividing and dividing cells of different types, and they are maintained in cells as an episome. As will be discussed in this article, nearly all clinical trials have indicated that Ad vectors are safe and well tolerated [2]
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everything has 2 sides, with roughly equal standing. Thank Fox and Limbaugh, and dems ditching the fairness doctrine, for how we receive "facts" about everything. Throw in hefty doses of whataboutism and all reality not experienced directly is fluid. After all, Saddam blew up the World Trade Center on 9/11 after throwing those preemie babies out of incubators, and nobody infringed on the rights of AIDs sufferers back in the 80's. No Nazi mask discrimination there.

I still think modern "capitalism" has invaded how we think and act. Business used to be about actual products. Value was inherent in the business as a total. Today the only use of a business is to return value to shareholders by profit, every quarter, by whatever means.

Elections used to end the day after voting. Now it's just a perpetual 2 or 4 year "quarter", limited by the fact that long term planning is impossible when the opposite party campaigns to dismantle everything that the previous party accomplished. No need to do anything except be against what the opposing party stands for.

The way most of America gets it's news is slathered in bothsiderism, whataboutism, alternative "facts" and surgically tailored "stories" to influence us one way or the other, or just to sow doubt. Usually not for our benefit.

Masks and vaccines will eventually be accepted, not through government mandates but by the market. Like smokers, antis will get charged a premium by insurance companies. Health plans will penalize them. It'll be required by many popular or essential business because their insurance companies demand it. Throw in law enforcement and bigger police budgets and I can't see how "freedumb" will win.

Republicans will have a hard time denying that extra profit to companies, and have no stomach for dying on Useful Idiot Hill.

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QMS's picture

@Snode

Somehow get legislated into existence. Have a mortgage? Insurance is mandated.
Drive a car? Insurance is mandated. Have a professional license? Insurance required.
Not much of a stretch to have health insurance mandated, the cost of which depending
on your age, zip code, lifestyle choices, immunizations, pre-existing conditions, diet,
weight, exercise, height, gender, race and sexual orientation.

We are led to believe lowering liability exposure to these 'benevolent' insurers saves us
all kinds of money. Ha! Crock of shite.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

Period.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

lotlizard's picture

that used to stand for a robust concept of free speech (First Amendment, Hyde Park, etc.) now stand for strong advocacy of totalitarian joint state and corporate power to dictate what is to be considered permissible speech.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/o-no-canada-fast-moving-proposal-c...

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@lotlizard .

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Which side are you on?

To all:

This is a choice everyone has to make. Regardless of what your conception of "science" says about how to deal with public health, do you agree that "wrong" ideas should be erased from cyberspace?

If you do, please explain exactly who will decide what ideas are "wrong." And who is going to tell that person that the job is done and to quit censoring people?

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.